Bom Names: What Are The Chances?

[Brant Gardner]

Your argument just doesn't make sense to me

Understood. If it did make sense, we might agree.

Anyway, the antis favorite argument is that "it is just another coincidence"

Thank you for placing me in the same category as an anti. Actually, I don't like that association.

I prefer to be in the category of people who prefer solid evidence rather than any thin strand.

and any archeological evidence for the BOM would and could fall into that category.

Archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon that comes from the same quick and incomplete comparison certainly falls into that category. That doesn't mean that all of it does. However, there is certainly a lot that is more coincidence than connection. Izapa stela 5 comes to mind immediately.

Sheum, for example, falls under that category.

Perhaps unsurpisingly, I am not fond of this one either. I have a difficult time understanding why Akkadian would cross the ocean and persist as a name for a New World grain that would have already had a different name. Maybe Hebrew, maybe Egyptian. I can see possible arguments for either of those. But Akkadian?

Feels like coincidence to me. I certainly couldn't defend it as anything more.

[Brant Gardner]

Further to the problem of coincidences. Several years ago, Chinese scholar Mike Xu announced that he had found archaeo-Chinese characters on the back of an Olmec celt. That was big news. He knew his stuff, and the characters he showed really looked like representations he gave of what the characters would have been.

Then it was found that the celt had been separated from a larger stone and made into three separate celts. There had been a large engraved picture on the back of the original, and Xu was interpreting the left over pieces of a larger picture.

The evidence really looked good, but was simply a remarkable coincidence and it was obvious with the discovery of the larger picture that the scratches were not Chinese characters at all. A truly remarkable coincidence, but only that.

[CA Steve]

I am a little unclear about all this. We are dealing with current English translations of Indian names from their language that sound similar in English to the English translations of names in the Book Of Mormon which was written in refromed Egyptian on the plates Joseph Smith had. Without knowing what reformed Egyptian sounded like how do know the current Indain language sounds are acutally similar to reformed Egyptian sounds?

[altersteve]

I am a little unclear about all this. We are dealing with current English translations of Indian names from their language that sound similar in English to the English translations of names in the Book Of Mormon which was written in refromed Egyptian on the plates Joseph Smith had. Without knowing what reformed Egyptian sounded like how do know the current Indain language sounds are acutally similar to reformed Egyptian sounds?

From what I understand, reformed Egyptian was only a written language, not a spoken one.

[CA Steve]

From what I understand, reformed Egyptian was only a written language, not a spoken one.

Well it would have to represent a sound in another language then (Hebrew?). So we start with Hebrew--->Reformed Egyptian-->English to English-->Shoshone. So the fact the the two Englsh names that meet in the middle sound similar is evidence of something?

[Robert F. Smith]

I prefer to be in the category of people who prefer solid evidence rather than any thin strand.

Archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon that comes from the same quick and incomplete comparison certainly falls into that category. That doesn't mean that all of it does. However, there is certainly a lot that is more coincidence than connection. Izapa stela 5 comes to mind immediately.

Perhaps unsurpisingly, I am not fond of this one either [sheum]. I have a difficult time understanding why Akkadian would cross the ocean and persist as a name for a New World grain that would have already had a different name. Maybe Hebrew, maybe Egyptian. I can see possible arguments for either of those. But Akkadian?

Feels like coincidence to me. I certainly couldn't defend it as anything more.

It might be well to recall that sheum appears in a list of food plants iin Mosiah 9:9. I was quite surprised to see it in a cuneiform list of words and signs in Jerusalem in 1969. I suppose that it could be sheer coincidence, but my systematic comparison runs as follows:

Old Akkadian

še

ʼ

um

“barley; grain; cereal; pine nut (pignolia); grain-measure.” Akkadian

še

ʼ

u

“grain” can appear in parallel with

uṭṭatu

“barley.” Based on the nominative singular case-ending in

-um

, and the fact that

še’u

was often read as

uṭṭatu

,

unṭatu

(= Hebrew

ḥiṭṭâ

), or

ú

/

u

2

(

u-um

) in Neo-Assyrian and Neo-Babylonian times, and with the mimated ending disappearing in the 2

nd

millennium B.C. (so possibly with Book of Mormon

Zeram

as Akkadian

zērum

“seed”), we are likely dealing with transmission of a Jaredite word frozen in an early form, i.e., Egyptian scribes writing in Akkadian cuneiform for example, employed “habitual spellings” with mimation as well as “frozen” ideograms in late times, so this should prove to be no problem for use by Israelite scribes writing in Egyptian (including Lehi & Nephi).

If such a Sumero-Akkadian cultural background applies to the Jaredites, then we should not be surprised to find other linguistic hints such as the following suggested etymologies of Jaredite names:

Amnigaddah – hypothetical Sumerian *AM-NA-GADA “who-is-a-herdsman”; from Sumerian AM₃ “who is, which is; as/like”; NA-GADA “herdsman”(Akkadian nāqidu = Hebrew nōqēd).

Coriantumr – hypothetical Sumerian *KUR.I.AN.TIMER “Heavenly-mountain-god” (with Sumerian KUR “great; mountain; land” [as in KUR.GAL “great-mountain; Land; name of pilot of Ark (in Flood Story)],” and northern Emesal dialect of DINGIR “god,”i.e., the theophoric epithet (name) ending in AN.DINGER / AN.DIMMER “Great-Heaven-God” which appears in many theophoric personal names and titles, as in Sumerian LUGAL.DIM(M)ER.AN.KIA “King of the gods of heaven and earth.”

Corom – Possibly same as Sumerian name KURUM, 4^th dynasty king of Uruk (Erech), ca. 2145 B.C., likely from KÚRUM₇, GÚ-RU-UM, KUR₇, KURU₇ “judge; inspect; decide, pass sentence; lookout, spy” = Akkadian pa-qá-du-um. Compare also Akkadian kurum III “Ein Stück vom Stamm, tree trunk.”

Emer – possibly same source as cuneiform toponym Emār, Imār (modern Meskene), e-ma-ri-tum, kār ^urue-mar^ki, ì-mar^ki, 3^rd & 2^nd millennium B.C. city on the great westward bend of the Euphrates in Syria, northeast of Tuttul & Mari.

Gilgah – Possibly Sumerian GIL-GA “father,” as in name of the epic hero Gilgamesh “The-old-man-is-a-young-man, The father is a young man”? Or hypothetical Sumerian *GIL.ĜA “slay many”?

Shim – Sumerian šim, šem “herb; wood; resin; spice; perfume.”

Shule – perhaps Sumerian šul “youth, young man; be manly,” as in the Ur III name šul-gi. Note that Orson Pratt considered the final -e to be silent in his 1869 Deseret Alphabet edition spelling, ʃɪul = šĭûl.

Shurr – Akkadian šur, šarru “king.”

[altersteve]

Well it would have to represent a sound in another language then (Hebrew?).

I don't think so. I would only have to represent the meaning, not the sound.

I'm not an expert on this topic, though, so if I'm just spouting off a bunch of crap, feel free to ignore me.

[Brant Gardner]

. . . I suppose that it could be sheer coincidence, but my systematic comparison runs as follows:

And that kind of context makes all the difference. A single word correspondence can be random. Sets of them that relate to the same culture create a better case. I hadn't seen your other possibilities before. Very interesting.

[Robert F. Smith]

I'm more impressed by:

Nephi

Jershon

Zarahemla

Those are nice suggestions, but some of the best are actually etymologized in the text of the Book of Mormon:

Rabbanah – title of king, “which is, being interpreted, ‘powerful’ or ‘great king’” (Alma 18:13). In very late Jewish antiquity, Rabbana became an honorific title for the heads of the central academy, or of the Sanhedrin after Hillel, including Simeon ben Gamliel III (Encyclopedia Judaica, IV:1163). It was the title of Rab Ashi, the most celebrated amora of his day and head of the Sura Academy, living ca. 335 - 427/428 C.E. (EJ, III:709). The exilarchs and scholars of their families were called “Mar” or “Rabbana” (EJ, II:873). John Tvedtnes points out that RABBANAH here corresponds to Rabunu “Our-Master/Great-One,” in Medieval Hebrew in Bet ha-Midrasch, ¶ 29,[1] and to Rabonni in John 20:16 (Greek transliteration Rabbouni). From the same Semitic root as Akkadian rabu “great.”[2] Hirsch Miller’s Hebrew translation of the Book of Mormon renders it simply as Rabbēnû.

Rameumptom – "Holy-Stand; a place of standing which was high above the head" (Alma 31:13,21,23). Probably from Hebrew rām “high,” and ‛omed “stand” with 3^rd plural pronominal suffix -am “them, their” attached, making hypothetical Hebrew *rame-‘omedam "Their-high-standing-place" (cf. II Ne 20:33 ǁIsa 10:33; Neh 8:7, 9:3, 13:11) very attractive. What makes it even more convincing is that the prayer said by the Zoramites standing on the rameumptom is the equivalent of the Jewish 'Amida "Standing" prayer. Moreover, Muslims on Hajj, "pilgrimage," likewise stand on the Plain of Arafat with arms raised praying for repentance (Arabic ʿumdan “standing”).

[1] A. Jellinek, ed., “The Story of Abraham Our Father from What Happened to Him with Nimrod,” and “A Study (Midrash) of Abraham Our Father,” in Bet ha-Midrasch, I:25-34, V:40-41, English translation in Tvedtnes, Hauglid & Gee, eds., Traditions about the Early Life of Abraham, 173 (n. 15), and 179 (n. 9).

[2] W. von Soden, AHw, 483.63.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Robert F. Smith

[volgadon]

John Tvedtnes points out that RABBANAH here corresponds to Rabunu “Our-Master/Great-One,” in Medieval Hebrew in Bet ha-Midrasch, ¶ 29,[1]

Perhaps I missed it, but I was only able to find Ribono shel Olam.

[cinepro]

I am a little unclear about all this. We are dealing with current English translations of Indian names from their language that sound similar in English to the English translations of names in the Book Of Mormon which was written in refromed Egyptian on the plates Joseph Smith had. Without knowing what reformed Egyptian sounded like how do know the current Indain language sounds are acutally similar to reformed Egyptian sounds?

I believe this was included on the last set of plates.

[Robert F. Smith]

Perhaps I missed it, but I was only able to find Ribono shel Olam.

Quite right, volgadon,

With all the years he spent in Jerusalem, Tvedtnes should have known that, and I should have caught it in any case. Thanks, buddy.

[cinepro]

And as I always say in conversations like this, while it's interesting to find connections between old world languages and the Book of Mormon, it seems logical to me that sometime in the 1,000 year history of the Nephites and Lamanites we might start seeing an infusion of new world names and words.

Just saying it would be awesome to see someone named"Ixzaluoh" pop up by Alma or Helaman.

[Robert F. Smith]

And as I always say in conversations like this, while it's interesting to find connections between old world languages and the Book of Mormon, it seems logical to me that sometime in the 1,000 year history of the Nephites and Lamanites we might start seeing an infusion of new world names and words.

Just saying it would be awesome to see someone named"Ixzaluoh" pop up by Alma or Helaman.

The only problem with that is that the Nahuatl peoples (Uto-Aztecans) did not arrive in Mexico until the post-Classic, after the end of the Book of Mormon period. In addition, the region in which Book of Mormon peoples lived was in the Isthmus and highland Guatemala area, although there was some outmigration northward and there must have been a good deal of trade contact.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

And of course there's also the fact that names are among the most conservative parts of cultures -- yes, spanning thousands of years. I was born in Hawaii, but I've got José Orbe in my name because none of my relatives were descended from the culture which gave people names such as Kaʻanoʻi Kamakawiwoʻole.

Edited April 29, 2012 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[mfbukowski]

Interesting.

Edited April 29, 2012 by mfbukowski

[cdowis]

With as little information as I have seen, I would have to say that it is likely. However, making certain either way would involve much more work in historical linguistics of Shoshone.

That, of course, is the answer for any apparent cognate. It isn't accepted without a lot of work to make sure that it is, or is not, a cognate.

As for the argument that Lamanai would be a play on words, that is an interesting explanation for why an otherwise false cognate might have a connection. However, it is such a strained connection that without any other solid reason to propose it, the better answer is false cognate. In this case, we would have to assume that a people identified themselves with a Nephite exonym (which had pejorative connotations), or that there was an unattested use of Lamanite as a demonym for the people that the Nephites called Lamanites. Then we have to assume that the city of Lamanai had any connection to Book of Mormon peoples. It is too far from the best geography for that to be plausible.

1. Your argument boils down to "it's just a coincidence". You use technical terms to hide that phrase, but I'm a simple sort of person.

No offense intended. I am simply making an observation, that this is the same logic as the antis whenever we attempt to show evidence for the BOM. Any evidence regarding the BOM has been brushed off as simply a coincidence.

No offense intended. I am simply making an observation, that this is the same logic as the antis whenever we attempt to show evidence for the BOM. You may feel uncomfortable in their company, but there it is.

2. Belize is not "near" to the BOM land? Perhaps we are looking at different maps.

3. The Lamanites did not call themselves "Lamanites"? Alma 54 [24] And behold now, I am abold Lamanite; behold, this war hath been waged to avenge their wrongs, and to maintain and to obtain their rights to the government; and I close my epistle to Moroni.

Having read the BOM, I can attest that at least the Lamanite leader called himself a Lamanite. (I don't know the technical terms here, but you get my point).

But, again, I suspect that you have some technical jargon which basically argues that he did not actually write "Lamanite", but something else. Another one of those nagging translation problems.

Perhaps it is another "coincidence", but everything about the BOM is just another coincidence. We have no proof.

BTW, how did an Akkadian word get into the Nephite language? Well, that goes back to the "others" (the Jaredites) who, after Nephi landed, showed them how to cultivate this grain (probably amaranth), and its name was passed on to them. From the Jaredites to the Nephites.

No proof but an interesting idea.

Edited April 29, 2012 by cdowis

[volgadon]

No offense intended. I am simply making an observation, that this is the same logic as the antis whenever we attempt to show evidence for the BOM. You may feel uncomfortable in their company, but there it is.

Are we supposed to take absolutely any evidence for the BoM no matter how weak it is? Ludlow's defence of adieu springs to mind.

Edited April 29, 2012 by volgadon

[cdowis]

Are we supposed to take absolutely any evidence for the BoM no matter how weak it is? Ludlow's defence of adieu springs to mind.

Of course not, and I welcome any criticism of my apologetics. Brent made several points and I responded to each. The single argument standing is the universal argument against any evidence for the BOM, "it's a coincidence".

In this case, I gave three additional points to strengthen its relevance -- geography, its meaning in the context of a warrior class, and its play on words.

Edited April 29, 2012 by cdowis

[Brant Gardner]

2. Belize is not "near" to the BOM land? Perhaps we are looking at different maps.

We must. You must be looking at some version of Joseph Allen's map (and pretty much accepted by the folk at BMAF). I am using Sorenson's. I find Sorenson's significantly superior, with quite a few problems in the Allen map (particularly along the east coast). It simply doesn't fit the text.

For the map that works with Mesoamerica, Belize is way to far away from the action to have been involved with the Book of Mormon peoples at all, no matter what they were called.

Yes, I think it is a coincidence. One can invent reasons to support the coincidence, but it never rises above coincidence.

Now, Robert Smith has shown good contextual information to support the Akkadian reading and provided a mechanism for its transfer. That rises above simple coincidence.

[Thinking]

What are the chances of a Shoshone Indian Cheif assuming a Book of Mormon name within 16 years of Mormon Pioneers entering the Salt Lake Valley?

The more possibilities there are, the less likely it is for there to be no matches (or bulls-eyes, as they are frequently called on this board). Consequently, the existence of some bulls-eyes is expected.

For example, if you have to take a 20 question multiple choice test (5 choices per question) and you are guessing, what is the probability that you answer zero correctly? 0.01153 or 1.153%

n = # questions

r = # correct

Probability = nCr[(0.2)^r][(0.8^(n-r)]

# Correct (Probability)

0 (.01153)

1 (.05765)

2 (.13691)

3 (.20536)

4 (.21820)

5 (.17456)

6 (.10910)

7 (.05455)

8 (.02216)

9 (.00739)

10 (.00203)

11 (.000462)

12 (.0000866)

13 (.0000133)

14 (.00000166)

15 (.000000166)

16 (.000000013)

17 (.000000000765)

18 (.0000000000319)

19 (.000000000000839)

20 (.0000000000000105)

Note that you have a much better random chance of guessing 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, or 8 correctly than 0.

Similarly, there are possible names that can be created using the alphabet and there are names in the Book of Mormon which are somewhat unique. Both values are certainly more than 20, so the probability of having zero matches (or bulls-eyes) would be much less than 1%. It would be surprising if there were no matches at all.

Coincidence?

Yes.

Edited April 29, 2012 by Thinking

[LDSToronto]

1. Your argument boils down to "it's just a coincidence". You use technical terms to hide that phrase, but I'm a simple sort of person.

No offense intended. I am simply making an observation, that this is the same logic as the antis whenever we attempt to show evidence for the BOM. Any evidence regarding the BOM has been brushed off as simply a coincidence.

No offense intended. I am simply making an observation, that this is the same logic as the antis whenever we attempt to show evidence for the BOM. You may feel uncomfortable in their company, but there it is.

And the original argument boils down to, "Two words sound the same, that must support the truthfulness the Book of Mormon".

No offense intended, but if you want to prove the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon based on linguistic anthropology, using the excuse, "I don't understand technical terms so you must be trying to trick me" doesn't bolster your case.

H.

[LDSToronto]

What are the chances of a Shoshone Indian Cheif assuming a Book of Mormon name within 16 years of Mormon Pioneers entering the Salt Lake Valley?

Is it likely that English-speaking Mormon pioneers heard the chief's name and, based on a phonetic interpretation, assigned a name that sounded similar to something that was located within their cultural context?

H.

[volgadon]

This appears to be the same person.

"Te-ah-to-wah, Snag's brother, renamed Lehi..."

http://books.google.com/books?id=eIJuAAAAMAAJ&q=te-ah-to-wah+lehi&dq=te-ah-to-wah+lehi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Y4mdT77JDuejiQL--5iNAQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA

[volgadon]

Adopting or being given names from settlers is not an uncommon practice.

Pocahontas was known as Rebecca later in her life, for example, taking the name when she converted to Christianity.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Pocahontas

Geronimo was given his name by Mexican soldiers. http://en.wikipedia.....27s_background

One of the Shoshone chiefs was called "Bear Hunter", obviously a name given him by English speakers. Another Shoshone was "One-eyed Tom." Unless one can demonstrate that "Lehi" was his name prior to contact, then I don't see any evidence beyond what occurred in these other instances of name adoption.

http://historytogo.u...s/chapter2.html

I think I've found pretty good evidence that this was the case.