The Unwritten Order Of Things™

[Scott Lloyd]

What's really interesting, is that in the meeting where Pres. Monson presented the new handbooks, he told a story about a high councilor who had created his own "unwritten Uorder" by turning the chairs toward the temple during ordinations. In this instance, then Bishop Monson, rejected the action of the Stake representative in a very public way - in front of the congregation! Talk about violating an unwritten order...

Yes, this has already been quoted in a previous post on this thread. It suggests, maybe, that part of the unwritten order is that we don't add accoutrements to the prescribed ordinances based on personal whim or fancy.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[mercyngrace]

Yes, this has already been quoted in a previous post on this thread. It suggests, maybe, that part of the unwritten order is that we don't add accoutrements to the prescribed ordinances based on personal whim or fancy.

Yeah... that wasn't the part I was referring to

[mfbukowski]

President Packer's critics love to portray him as some kind of Grand Inquisitor in the noble tradition of Tomás de Torquemada. They are no more capable of understanding the real Boyd K. Packer than they are the church he serves so well. He is a kind, compassionate servant of the Lord who has spent most of his ministry holding wide open the door of repentance, and beckoning all to enter.

Regards,

Pahoran

[mfbukowski]

I suspect that during the time you were bishop (and perhaps even before or after) you conformed to at least some aspects of the unwritten order of things not because any person told you to but because the Spirit whispered to you that it should be so.

Of course, that is true. But my wife always gets it right anyway.

[KevinG]

One site I checked suggested that parents of newborns in Utah are taking their cue from the "Twilight" series. This and your observation indicate that the influence in Utah comes not from Mormon culture, but from Hollywood, which, umm, makes the Beehive State pretty much like the rest of the country in that respect.

But again, don't let me be the killjoy and ruin people's trite stereotypes.

I saw a sociological study from the early 90s that mentioned two ethnic groups more likely to make up combined and unique names than any other... Guess which ones? Hint:

One community would make up names like: LaQuanda and Danmaurice

The other would make up names like: Dalin Romney or Hinkley Brigham

(Hey- don't blame me it was a bona fide socioligical study)

[mfbukowski]

How did we get to be an "ethnic group"????

I am sure Darius Gray would be interested in that characterization!

[KevinG]

How did we get to be an "ethnic group"????

I am sure Darius Gray would be interested in that characterization!

To be honest I'm not sure of the designation used in the study... But perhaps the use of green jello and funeral potatoes plus our unusual mode of dress (three cammies under a sun dress in mid August) qualifies us as a unique tribe?

[Scott Lloyd]

How did we get to be an "ethnic group"????

I am sure Darius Gray would be interested in that characterization!

I've known Darius for years and consider him a personal friend. And I'm old enough to remember when he was a young up-and-coming reporter on KSL-TV Channel 5 in Salt Lake City.

To this day, when I think of Darius, I remember watching the 10 p.m. newscasts as a youth and how, upon hearing, "This is Darius Gray, Channel 5 Eyewitness News," my dad, then in his 60s, would begin reciting lines from this poem learned in his own youth.

I'm not sure what this has to do with ethnicity except to say that some ethnic characteristics may pop up in disparate groups and may have more to do with generational than with ethnic demarcations.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

I saw a sociological study from the early 90s that mentioned two ethnic groups more likely to make up combined and unique names than any other... Guess which ones? Hint:

One community would make up names like: LaQuanda and Danmaurice

The other would make up names like: Dalin Romney or Hinkley Brigham

(Hey- don't blame me it was a bona fide socioligical study)

I don't doubt its accuracy but would hasten to point out it was from 20 or so years ago. Today's new parents would have mostly been born in the late '80s or very early '90s. Do you really think they're apt to hold to pioneer-era conventions in the naming of their newborns? I rather doubt it.

And you didn't indicate whether the study covered Mormons in general or if it focused on Mormons in Utah.

Which raises the question: How does one define Mormon ethnicity? Does it have a geographic component? One might think so, observing how some Church members go off on their brothers and sisters in Utah.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[mfbukowski]

I've known Darius for years and consider him a personal friend. And I'm old enough to remember when he was a young up-and-coming reporter on KSL-TV Channel 5 in Salt Lake City.

To this day, when I think of Darius, I remember watching the 10 p.m. newscasts as a youth and how, upon hearing, "This is Darius Gray, Channel 5 Eyewitness News," my dad, then in his 60s, would begin reciting lines from this poem learned in his own youth.

I'm not sure what this has to do with ethnicity except to say that some ethnic characteristics may pop up in disparate groups and may have more to do with generational than with ethnic demarcations.

I am acquainted with Marvin Perkins who works with Bro Gray- and he is a very charismatic man who just glows with the light of Christ.

But it's interesting that even though I grew up in a Polish neighborhood in an East Coast city, now that I am Mormon THAT is my "ethnicity"

[Scott Lloyd]

I am acquainted with Marvin Perkins who works with Bro Gray- and he is a very charismatic man who just glows with the light of Christ.

Isn't he the guy who used to be on Mutual of Omah's "Wild Kingdom"?

[mfbukowski]

Isn't he the guy who used to be on Mutual of Omah's "Wild Kingdom"?

LOL! Not exactly! http://blacksinthescriptures.com/

[mercyngrace]

I've been meaning to add a thought to this thread for some time but kept forgetting (an increasingly frequent occurrence :S )

Offering sacrament for latecomers does not set a precedent in terms of carrying out an ordinance a second time for those not in attendance at the primary ritual. Moses instituted a second Passover (the "Little Passover") to allow those who were traveling or ceremonially unclean during the 14th day of Abib to participate in the feast and thus keep the law. (Numbers 9:10)

It always fascinates me to discover that the issues we encounter individually and institutionally are rarely new.

Also, there was a brilliant post at BCC yesterday which, although not addressing the sacrament issue, does discuss the difficulties some face with punctuality and a Christ-like response to those stragglers.

[seriously honestly]

One site I checked suggested that parents of newborns in Utah are taking their cue from the "Twilight" series. This and your observation indicate that the influence in Utah comes not from Mormon culture, but from Hollywood, which, umm, makes the Beehive State pretty much like the rest of the country in that respect.

But again, don't let me be the killjoy and ruin people's trite stereotypes.

Which is kind of a shame. I use to love the name Isabella until that stupid Twilight came out.

[Scott Lloyd]

I've been meaning to add a thought to this thread for some time but kept forgetting (an increasingly frequent occurrence :S )

Offering sacrament for latecomers does not set a precedent in terms of carrying out an ordinance a second time for those not in attendance at the primary ritual. Moses instituted a second Passover (the "Little Passover") to allow those who were traveling or ceremonially unclean during the 14th day of Abib to participate in the feast and thus keep the law. (Numbers 9:10)

It seems to me this is more analogous to the Church's practice of holding sacrament services at Boy Scout jamborees and at national parks and other tourist destinations to accommodate travelers -- or providing the sacrament to shut-ins or people at nursing homes and hospitals -- than it is to receiving the sacrament on demand whenever one is disposed to show up, even if the formal meeting has been concluded.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[wenglund]

Either bishops are inspired or they are not. If a bishop is not inspired, then you have a much bigger problem that is not going to be solved by codifying and mandating every last detail of everything they do.

Ah, yes...a view of the world through a black/white lens. I can't help but smile when flexibility is presented in such a rigid way.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Analytics]

I found this thread quite entertaining, and felt inspired to throw out a little anecdote.

When I was growing up in Sandy, Utah, Marvin J. Ashton’s son lived in our ward. Whenever one of Elder Ashton’s grandchildren was blessed, baptized, or reached any other milestone for which you are recognized in sacrament meeting, the apostle attended our ward. Interestingly, he always sat with his family in the congregation.

The unwritten order of things contains the gem, “The one who presides in a meeting should sit on the stand and sit close to the one conducting.” The bishop always recognized Elder Ashton in the congregation, and, according to Elder Ashton’s explicit instructions, clarified that Elder Ashton was not presiding in the meeting.

So the next time you are the presiding priesthood leader in a meeting and would rather sit with your family, all you need to do is delegate the role of presiding leader to somebody else, and you are free to sit where you want. Even the unwritten order of things has loopholes.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Analytics

[Scott Lloyd]

Glad to see that this thread is still open, though the last post was over a month ago. I have something to add.

At our fathers-and-sons outing last weekend, a member of the stake high council spoke to us and gave a recollection that I think is quite germane to some of the content on this thread.

He said he grew up in the same ward in Salt Lake where one of the General Authorities attended. (He gave the name of the GA, who is now deceased, but since this is secondhand, I won't disclose the name.)

Reportedly, the GA was in the habit of showing up 15 minutes early every Sunday for sacrament meeting. (He was older, so he didn't have assignments that took him out of town every week; perhaps he already had emeritus status by then.) On one occasion, a ward member asked him why he always came so early. His reported reply: "I want to be early for the most important thing I do all week."

Food for thought, especially when contrasted with the story given on this thread about the individual who came too late to sacrament meeting to receive the sacrament and then insisted it be served to her after the meeting had concluded.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[DBMormon]

In regards to Melchizadek PH holders always being the concluding speaker. Leaders in the past in the Stake have asked that we conform to this request... While I have done so, It has bothered me a bunch. Is there any actual church guideline or reason or history or other valid reason this should not be considered a false teaching/ urban legend that prevails along with others throughout the church?

your thoughts.

Edited June 6, 2012 by reelmormon

[Scott Lloyd]

In regards to Melchizadek PH holders always being the concluding speaker. Leaders in the past in the Stake have asked that we conform to this request... While I have done so, It has bothered me a bunch. Is there any actual church guideline or reason or history or other valid reason this should not be considered a false teaching/ urban legend that prevails along with others throughout the church?

your thoughts.

If it's a directive that comes from your stake leaders, it occurs to me they are the ones you should be asking.

[DBMormon]

scott, I had expressed my opinion when it came up in the past and stated that it seems to be a false teaching or false doctrine that some in the church have permitted to linger. They saw it as valid. I am curious to what validation it might have. They had no evidence of it just that was the way it was for them.

[bluebell]

I've never heard of such a thing, and remember being in wards where a sister was the last one to speak.

When i was in high school, i remember there being a bit of an uproar in my ward in wyoming because 'someone' (I honestly dont' remember if the directive came from the bishop, the stake, or SLC) declared that women could not give closing prayers in sacrament meeting.

Apparently that teaching didn't stick, because i've been in lots of wards where women give the benediction all the time.

[DBMormon]

I wish it and others like it would dissapear

what is it called when a false teaching or false doctrine makes it's way itno the church and seems to hang around because it sounds right or seems to have always been done that way and yet is false. I was thinking there was a name for it.

[CASteinman]

While I have done so, It has bothered me a bunch. Is there any actual church guideline or reason or history or other valid reason this should not be considered a false teaching/ urban legend that prevails along with others throughout the church?

Seems to me that it is possible to spend a lot of time in useless burdening of the soul in being "bothered" "a bunch" in such thing things. However, the instructions the Church has issued regarding the Sacrament Meetings do not include such requirements as far as I can tell.

[mfbukowski]

I would check manual 1- it seems to me its in there. Has anybody checked manual 2?