Adultery in the Book of Mormon

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Not really a relevant comparison but execution for adultery is very rare in Saudi Arabia. I have heard there is an average of about one execution a decade for it.

 

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The death penalty in Saudi Arabia: Facts and Figures

Saudi Arabia remains one of the most prolific executioners in the world.

It is among the top three executioners worldwide, surpassed only by China and Iran, in Amnesty International’s latest global death penalty report.

At least 2,208 people executed between January 1985 and June 2015.

102 people executed between January and June 2015.

90 people executed in whole of 2014.

48.5% of people executed between January 1985 and June 2015 – 1,072 people – were foreign nationals, who make up around 33% of Saudi Arabia’s population of approximately 30 million.Executions for drug related offences rose from just 4% in 2010 and 2011 to 28% in 2012 and 32% in 2013. By 2014 and June 2015 the percentage had risen to 47%.

This means almost half of executions in 2014 and until June 2015 are for non-lethal crimes.

Beheadings are the most common execution method in Saudi Arabia, but some executions also carried out by firing squad.

Public executions typically take place in the public square of a town or city.

The death penalty in Saudi Arabia is used in violation of international human rights law and standards. Trials in capital cases are often held in secret and defendants are routinely denied access to lawyers.

People may be convicted solely on the basis of “confessions” obtained under torture, other ill-treatment or deception.

Non-lethal crimes including “adultery”, armed robbery, “apostasy”, drug-related offences, rape, “witchcraft” and “sorcery” are punishable by death.

The majority of executions for non-lethal crimes in Saudi Arabia are for drug related offences which are not mandatorily punishable by death according to the authorities’ interpretation of Islamic Shari’a law.

Alleged juvenile offenders are executed in blatant violation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

In some cases, the relatives of those on death row are not notified of the executions in advance and in other cases, they are not returned the body.

People with mental disabilities are also not spared the death sentence.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/08/the-death-penalty-in-saudi-arabia-facts-and-figures/ .

 

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Also Islam is a break off of Christianity, not Judaism. Christianity is a break off of Judaism so you can maybe call Judaism a grandparent.

It is true that some scholars claim that the Qur'an was derived from a Syriac Christian lectionary, and that reading the Qur'an as Syriac-Aramaic Christian liturgy can explain many of the most difficult passages.  This is sometimes attributed to the 8th century Caliph Abdul Malik as the author of Islam, Muhammad the Prophet being his invention from whole-cloth.  The scholars say that there was no Mecca.  That Islam began at Petra, which was he original direction (qibla) of Islamic prayer.  

However, there is nothing Christian about Islam, which rejects the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Islam declares that God does not beget and is not begotten.

Instead, it's closest connections are with Judaism:

Jewish pilgrimage to Jerusalem is converted to pilgrimage to Mecca (the Islamic temple).  The Kaaba "Cube" at Mecca is equivalent to the Jewish temple Holy of Holies, which is a cube.  Muslims circumambulate 7 times counterclockwise around the Kaaba, just as Jews did in commemoration of the 7-times counterclockwise circumambulation of Jericho under Joshua.  Following that circumambulation, the Muslims then run back and forth between two "mountains" called 'Safa' and 'Marwah', which are just a few hundred feet from the Kaaba (commemorating Hagar running back & forth to find water for her son Ishmael).  These are equivalent to Mt Moriah (Marwah) and Mount Scopus (Safa) in Jerusalem.

Muslims pray 5 times daily, just as Jews do on the Day of Atonement.

Edited April 29, 2025 by Robert F. Smith

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It is true that some scholars claim that the Qur'an was derived from a Syriac Christian lectionary, and that reading the Qur'an as Syriac-Aramaic Christian liturgy can explain many of the most difficult passages.  This is sometimes attributed to the 8th century Caliph Abdul Malik as the author of Islam, Muhammad the Prophet being his invention from whole-cloth.  The scholars say that there was no Mecca.  That Islam began at Petra, which was he original direction (qibla) of Islamic prayer.  

The idea that Muhammed wasn’t a historical person is a very minority position. The ‘Petra was the original Mecca’ thing is also a fringe position.

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

However, there is nothing Christian about Islam, which rejects the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Islam declares that God does not beget and is not begotten.

Islam accepts Jesus as a prophet born of a virgin. Islam believes Jesus will have a Second Coming. Nothing Christian? That is a ridiculous take.

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Instead, it's closest connections are with Judaism:

Jewish pilgrimage to Jerusalem is converted to pilgrimage to Mecca (the Islamic temple).  The Kaaba "Cube" at Mecca is equivalent to the Jewish temple Holy of Holies, which is a cube.  Muslims circumambulate 7 times counterclockwise around the Kaaba, just as Jews did in commemoration of the 7-times counterclockwise circumambulation of Jericho under Joshua.  Following that circumambulation, the Muslims then run back and forth between two "mountains" called 'Safa' and 'Marwah', which are just a few hundred feet from the Kaaba (commemorating Hagar running back & forth to find water for her son Ishmael).  These are equivalent to Mt Moriah (Marwah) and Mount Scopus (Safa) in Jerusalem.

Muslims pray 5 times daily, just as Jews do on the Day of Atonement.

As we know Christians have never done pilgrimages. This is silly. This is a bunch of silly parallelisms.

One group prays five times every day! The other prays fives times a day on one specific day of the year. These are the same thing!

Really?

Seriously, did an AI chatbot put this together? It has that confidently espousing rubbish vibe you get from an AI.

[JVW]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

... circumambulate ... circumambulation ...circumambulation

Now you're just making up words!

[Calm]

2 hours ago, JVW said:

Now you're just making up words!

I assume this is a joke, but also assume you are unfamiliar with it.   

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumambulation

Edited April 29, 2025 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

On 4/29/2025 at 9:59 AM, The Nehor said:

The idea that Muhammed wasn’t a historical person is a very minority position. The ‘Petra was the original Mecca’ thing is also a fringe position.

Islam accepts Jesus as a prophet born of a virgin. Islam believes Jesus will have a Second Coming. Nothing Christian? That is a ridiculous take.

As we know Christians have never done pilgrimages. This is silly. This is a bunch of silly parallelisms.

One group prays five times every day! The other prays fives times a day on one specific day of the year. These are the same thing!

Really?

Seriously, did an AI chatbot put this together? It has that confidently espousing rubbish vibe you get from an AI.

What is truly odd is that you maintain that Islam comes from Christianity, with Islam denying that Jesus was crucified and while rejecting virtually all Christian teachings.

As to chatbots, you can pose the question on Islam to the AI of your choice, and see the result for yourself.  It will not be anything like what I said.

[The Nehor]

16 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

What is truly odd is that you maintain that Islam comes from Christianity, with Islam denying that Jesus was crucified and while rejecting virtually all Christian teachings.

They don’t reject virtually all Christian teachings.

Also this is like claiming that Christianity didn’t come from Judaism because Christianity rejected the Torah as the law of God and picked a messiah that didn’t meet the specified requirements to be the messiah. They rejected virtually all Jewish teachings. I would argue that Islam and Christianity have more in common than either of them have with Judaism.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 4/30/2025 at 10:32 PM, The Nehor said:

They don’t reject virtually all Christian teachings.

Perhaps you could list the Christian teachings preached by Islam.

On 4/30/2025 at 10:32 PM, The Nehor said:

Also this is like claiming that Christianity didn’t come from Judaism because Christianity rejected the Torah as the law of God and picked a messiah that didn’t meet the specified requirements to be the messiah. They rejected virtually all Jewish teachings. I would argue that Islam and Christianity have more in common than either of them have with Judaism.

Christianity did not reject the Torah, and it was specifically Jewish apocalyptic messianism which one finds embodied in early Christianity -- which was an entirely Jewish sect.  It is Jewish scholars themselves who staunchly maintain that the Messianism of the Essenes (Qumran) strongly precedes any Christian messianism -- aside from all the other Jewish messianic movements down through history.

Edited May 2, 2025 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

On 4/29/2025 at 9:59 AM, The Nehor said:

.......................

One group prays five times every day! The other prays fives times a day on one specific day of the year. These are the same thing!

Really?

..........................

Aside from adapting nearly all Jewish practices to their own Islamic procedures and foci (halal, circumcision, etc.), Muslims tried to go the Jews one better:  Not only pray 5 times a day, as the Jews do on the holiest day of the year, but establish their own holy temple liturgy in place of that of Solomon's temple (in addition to building their Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem directly over the holy of holies of that Jewish temple).  We are talking about the most important prayer in Judaism, known as "The-Prayer" (hat-tefillah) or Amida "Standing-Prayer."

Thus, at Mecca during the Hajj liturgy, Muslims dressed in white robes (over the left shoulder) raise their arms in prayer to God -- just as the Jews and Zoramites do in their synagogues.  They do this "standing" (Arabic umdan; Hebrew omed), which is a Hebrew etymological source for the word rame-umptom (*רמי-עומדם) "Holy-Stand; a place of standing which was high above the head."  These parallels are not accidental.

What is so difficult about the Day of Atonement liturgy is that all fast sundown to sundown that holy day, so that by the time you are saying the Amida for the fifth time, it is very hard to stand, much less say anything.  I know, I have done it.

Edited May 2, 2025 by Robert F. Smith

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Perhaps you could list the Christian teachings preached by Islam.

Or you could just Google it.

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Christianity did not reject the Torah, and it was specifically Jewish apocalyptic messianism which one finds embodied in early Christianity -- which was an entirely Jewish sect.  It is Jewish scholars themselves who staunchly maintain that the Messianism of the Essenes (Qumran) strongly precedes any Christian messianism -- aside from all the other Jewish messianic movements down through history.

Some versions of early Christianity did reject the Torah (and/or the entire Hebrew Bible). See gnosticism in particular though there are other Christian groups that reject the Old Testament.

Expectations of a Jewish messiah do pre-date Christianity but Jesus did not meet the requirements to be that messiah. This is of course was explained as Jesus eventually returning to do the rest.

And again, Islam also expects Jesus to return.

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Aside from adapting nearly all Jewish practices to their own Islamic procedures and foci (halal, circumcision, etc.), Muslims tried to go the Jews one better:  Not only pray 5 times a day, as the Jews do on the holiest day of the year, but establish their own holy temple liturgy in place of that of Solomon's temple (in addition to building their Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem directly over the holy of holies of that Jewish temple).  We are talking about the most important prayer in Judaism, known as "The-Prayer" (hat-tefillah) or Amida "Standing-Prayer."

That is not how it happened.

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Thus, at Mecca during the Hajj liturgy, Muslims dressed in white robes (over the left shoulder) raise their arms in prayer to God -- just as the Jews and Zoramites do in their synagogues.  They do this "standing" (Arabic umdan; Hebrew omed), which is a Hebrew etymological source for the word rame-umptom (*רמי-עומדם) "Holy-Stand; a place of standing which was high above the head."  These parallels are not accidental.

They are nearly universal. It is not a parallel that shows a connection. It is just how lots of cultures of all types do prayer.

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

What is so difficult about the Day of Atonement liturgy is that all fast sundown to sundown that holy day, so that by the time you are saying the Amida it is very hard to stand, much less say anything.  I know, I have done it.

Ummm….okay.