Overthrowing the church of God

[theplains]

On 2/6/2026 at 11:54 PM, InCognitus said:

THESE are the questions:   [It's a different Jesus] According to who? This is the entire question, and your answer doesn't really address the question [AGAIN!]. Who or what gives you the authority to judge a person’s salvation? Who or what gives you the authority to judge who is teaching a different Jesus?

The Bible is the authority.

Is the Jesus of the Jehovah's Witnesses (aka Michael the Archangel) a different Jesus than the
what the LDS Church teaches?  Do you believe putting your faith in Michael saves you?
 

On 2/6/2026 at 11:54 PM, InCognitus said:

Nobody has disputed that point other than what it means that he "became God".  Joseph Smith taught that God has always been the "head God" and that he "became God" in relation to us when God proposed his plan of salvation to the eternal spirits that he was with.

Didn't he "become God" in relation to us when we supposedly became his offspring, long before this
plan of salvation was explained to us?

Joseph Smith taught, "it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how 
He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed 
that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see".  

But this is not "becoming God in relation to us".  If you can find it expressed in the King Follett
discourse, then let me know.

I think you are putting your own opinion of what it means to "become God" into his discourse.  It's 
like the phrase "become like God" is substituted for "become a God".

Do you also believe "exaltation" only applies to a resurrected, glorified being after he has his
first spirit child through eternal increase?
 

On 2/6/2026 at 11:54 PM, InCognitus said:

Nothing you provided from official church sources shows that he had a Father before him.

I just provide them. It's up to you to determine if they are false teachings, which lead people
astray.

By the way, they were considered official when spoken, although they were not canonized.
This concept is also present in the April 1989 General Conference.

"There are some of our members who practice selective obedience. A prophet is not one who
displays a smorgasbord of truth from which we are free to pick and choose. However, some
members become critical and suggest the prophet should change the menu. A prophet doesn't
take a poll to see which way the wind of public opinion is blowing. He reveals the will 
of the Lord to us" (Ensign, May 1989).
 

On 2/6/2026 at 11:54 PM, InCognitus said:

Ok, the Book of Mormon teaches that Jesus is God incarnate (more clearly than the Bible I might add). 

I think Mosiah 15:1–4 and 1 Nephi 11:18, 21 are the only places in the Book of Mormon which teaches 
that Jesus is God incarnate.  Alma 11:39 and Ether 3:14 mention that Jesus is also the Father.

From the Bible, we have it more clearly stated:

John 1:1, 14 ("the Word was God ... the Word was made flesh").
Colossians 2:9 ("In him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily").
Philippians 2:6–7 ("Jesus was in the form of God and took upon him the form of a servant").
Hebrews 1:8 ("Of the Son: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever").
Titus 2:13 ("the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ").
1 Timothy 3:16 ("God was manifest in the flesh").
Isaiah 9:6 ("the coming Messiah called Mighty God").

[InCognitus]

On 2/16/2026 at 4:41 PM, theplains said:

On 2/6/2026 at 9:54 PM, InCognitus said:

THESE are the questions:   [It's a different Jesus] According to who? This is the entire question, and your answer doesn't really address the question [AGAIN!]. Who or what gives you the authority to judge a person’s salvation? Who or what gives you the authority to judge who is teaching a different Jesus?

The Bible is the authority.

Awesome.  So, we have no argument between us because Latter-day Saints believe everything the Bible says about God the Father and Jesus Christ. 

And as I’ve said before, Latter-day Saints believe in and adhere to the doctrines and teachings of the Holy Bible more completely and in greater harmony than any other religion on the planet (as far as I am aware). 

You claim, “the Bible is the authority”, but you are the one judging our salvation.

Where does the Bible say you get to be the one who interprets the word of God correctly and judge other people and their salvation?

When I read the Bible, I see verses like these:

Romans 2:1–6:  “Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.  But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.  And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?  Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;  Who will render to every man according to his deeds”.

The Bible warns against hypocritical judgements in verses like that shown above (and in other places like Matthew 7:1-5).

And how does Jesus say that we can know his disciples?

John 13:34-35:  “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.  By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.”

So why are you judging our salvation?   What gives you the authority to judge us?  The Bible doesn’t give you that authority, so you really haven’t addressed the questions:   Who or what gives you the authority to judge a person’s salvation?  Who or what gives you the authority to judge who is teaching a different Jesus? 

On 2/16/2026 at 4:41 PM, theplains said:

On 2/6/2026 at 9:54 PM, InCognitus said:

Nobody has disputed that point other than what it means that he "became God".  Joseph Smith taught that God has always been the "head God" and that he "became God" in relation to us when God proposed his plan of salvation to the eternal spirits that he was with.

Didn't he "become God" in relation to us when we supposedly became his offspring, long before this
plan of salvation was explained to us?

According to who? 

On 2/16/2026 at 4:41 PM, theplains said:

Joseph Smith taught, "it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how 
He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed 
that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see".  

But this is not "becoming God in relation to us".  If you can find it expressed in the King Follett
discourse, then let me know.

I already let you know several times, but you are apparently trying to ignore what I explained so you can repeat yourself and portray your own version of “LDS doctrine”.  And yes, it was all expressed within the context of the King Follet discourse.   See my post on 05/26/2025 where I analyzed the King Follet discourse and Sermon in the Grove (and in several other posts).

On 2/16/2026 at 4:41 PM, theplains said:

I think you are putting your own opinion of what it means to "become God" into his discourse.  It's 
like the phrase "become like God" is substituted for "become a God".

Nope.  You obviously haven’t read what I already wrote on that topic.  It’s all contained in the way Joseph Smith described it in his sermon.  Please read and engage what I already wrote on the topic, or why is there a point in continuing this discussion?

On 2/16/2026 at 4:41 PM, theplains said:

On 2/6/2026 at 9:54 PM, InCognitus said:

Nothing you provided from official church sources shows that he had a Father before him.

I just provide them. It's up to you to determine if they are false teachings, which lead people
astray.

That doesn't change the fact that nothing you provided shows that the church teaches that God the Father was a spirit child of heavenly parents.

As for whether any other thing is "true" or false", there are things that are “true” or “false” that none of us will know (including you) until we shall see God “face to face”.  But for now, “we see through a glass, darkly” (as Paul put it).

But we do need to compare everything against the revelations and established church doctrines as determined by the council of the twelve (as it was done in New Testament Christianity as shown in Acts chapter 15).

On 2/16/2026 at 4:41 PM, theplains said:

By the way, they were considered official when spoken, although they were not canonized.
This concept is also present in the April 1989 General Conference.

"There are some of our members who practice selective obedience. A prophet is not one who
displays a smorgasbord of truth from which we are free to pick and choose. However, some
members become critical and suggest the prophet should change the menu. A prophet doesn't
take a poll to see which way the wind of public opinion is blowing. He reveals the will 
of the Lord to us" (Ensign, May 1989).

This doesn’t support your claim.  This quote is referring to when a prophet “reveals the will of the Lord to us”.  None of the quotes you provided were for a prophet doing that.

On 2/16/2026 at 4:41 PM, theplains said:

On 2/6/2026 at 9:54 PM, InCognitus said:

Ok, the Book of Mormon teaches that Jesus is God incarnate (more clearly than the Bible I might add). 

I think Mosiah 15:1–4 and 1 Nephi 11:18, 21 are the only places in the Book of Mormon which teaches 
that Jesus is God incarnate.  

You missed several others, see below.

On 2/16/2026 at 4:41 PM, theplains said:

Alma 11:39 and Ether 3:14 mention that Jesus is also the Father.

Of course Jesus is called the Father, the Bible teaches this too (see Isaiah 9:6).  But that doesn’t mean Jesus is the same being as God the Father (the scriptures make that distinction clear).

Jesus Christ is "the Father" in LDS doctrine in that He is the creator of the earth (Eph 3:9, Heb 11:1-2, John 1:1-3,14).  Therefore, as the Book of Mormon teaches, Jesus is considered the "Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are." (Ether 4:7.)

Jesus is also called the Father of those who are spiritually "born again", since Jesus is the "Father" of salvation.  King Benjamin said, "And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters." (Mosiah 5:7.)

Jesus is also called the Father because He is the mediator between God and man, and therefore He is our representative of the Father in all things pertaining to man on earth.  Jesus speaks the words of the Father as if they were his own.  God the Father has "put [His] words in his mouth" (Deuteronomy 18:18, John 8:26-29, John 12:49-50, John 17:8), so sometimes Jesus speaks in the first person as if He were the Father.  This is called "divine investiture of authority" (that is, Jesus is authorized to act as if he were the Father, because in our fallen state, Jesus is the mediator, and thus He fully represents the Father).  Jesus said, "I am come in my Father's name" (John 5:43), so He can in fact be called "the Father", because of his "oneness" in unity with the Father and because of His authority to act on behalf of the Father.  He does only his Father's will, only that which he has seen the Father do.

On 2/16/2026 at 4:41 PM, theplains said:

From the Bible, we have it more clearly stated:

John 1:1, 14 ("the Word was God ... the Word was made flesh").
Colossians 2:9 ("In him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily").
Philippians 2:6–7 ("Jesus was in the form of God and took upon him the form of a servant").
Hebrews 1:8 ("Of the Son: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever").
Titus 2:13 ("the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ").
1 Timothy 3:16 ("God was manifest in the flesh").
Isaiah 9:6 ("the coming Messiah called Mighty God").

I think Mosiah 3:5-9 is far clearer: 

“5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.   6 And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men.   7 And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.  8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.   9 And lo, he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through faith on his name; and even after all this they shall consider him a man, and say that he hath a devil, and shall scourge him, and shall crucify him.”

And there are others:

2 Nephi 9:5: “Yea, I know that ye know that in the body he shall show himself unto those at Jerusalem, from whence we came; for it is expedient that it should be among them; for it behooveth the great Creator that he suffereth himself to become subject unto man in the flesh, and die for all men, that all men might become subject unto him.”

2 Nephi 9:20-22:  “O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it.  And he cometh into the world that he may save all men if they will hearken unto his voice; for behold, he suffereth the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam.  And he suffereth this that the resurrection might pass upon all men, that all might stand before him at the great and judgment day.”

Alma 11:38-40:  “Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?  And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;  And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.”

[theplains]

On 2/22/2026 at 8:59 PM, InCognitus said:

So why are you judging our salvation?   What gives you the authority to judge us?  The Bible doesn’t give you that authority, so you really haven’t addressed the questions:   Who or what gives you the authority to judge a person’s salvation?  Who or what gives you the authority to judge who is teaching a different Jesus? 

It seems I am not able to answer the question to your satisfaction.

The Latter-day Saints teach some things about Christ which are not coming from either the Book 
of Mormon or the Bible. For example, he is taught to be the first spirit child of a heavenly 
mother who became a God prior to coming to earth in a mortal body.
 
Different religions have their own versions of Christ. In Islam, he's only a prophet.  In the
Watchtower, he is Michael the Archangel.
 
Do you believe these people are saved because they believe some things about him but reject other 
important things, and what is your authority for saying yes or no?
 

On 2/22/2026 at 8:59 PM, InCognitus said:

I already let you know several times, but you are apparently trying to ignore what I explained so you can repeat yourself and portray your own version of “LDS doctrine”.  And yes, it was all expressed within the context of the King Follet discourse.   See my post on 05/26/2025 where I analyzed the King Follet discourse and Sermon in the Grove (and in several other posts).

I can find nothing in the King Follett Discourse which shows that Heavenly Father became God "in 
the sense" of him having spirit children with one or more of his wives.  

Do you?  If yes, then provide something to support that belief.

I did read your reply on 05/26/2025 but it basically is summarized in your statement "we always 
need to consider the context of what is said in a revelation or in a particular sermon", but it
did not address what I was seeking.

Don't conflate the "God became God when he became our Parent" argument with Joseph Smith saying 
"We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and 
take away the veil, so that you may see".

I already provided LDS teachings, beyond the King Follett Discourse, which show Heavenly Father 
was not always God and he was not always a Heavenly Father. And I agree with you - none of these 
teachings are supported by scripture.  They are not new; they go back decades.

Here are 10 of them.  None of them are portrayed as speculation. I don't believe any of them
represent the truth.

While you may not classify them as "official doctrine", let me know which number(s) you believe 
are speculative (and why?), true, or false.

1]  

"Through a continual course of progression, our Heavenly Father has received exaltation 
and glory; and He points us out the same path” (Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel 
Student Manual).

2]

"His work and His glory, He told us, is “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal 
life of man.” He has already achieved godhood. Now His only objective is to help us—to 
enable us to return to Him and be like Him and live His kind of life eternally" ("But If 
Not ...", By Elder Dennis E. Simmons Of the Seventy, April 2004 General Conference).

3]

“Less well understood, however, is the fact that God is an exalted man who once lived 
on an earth and underwent experiences of mortality . The Prophet Joseph Smith refers to 
this as "the great secret." (Times and Seasons 5:613, August 15 1844). See also Joseph 
Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345.) The progression of our Father in 
heaven to godhood, or exaltation, was strictly in accordance with eternal principles” 
(Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual).

4]

"Long before our God began his creations, he dwelt on a mortal world like ours, one of the creations 
that his Father had created for him and his brethren. He, with many of his brethren, was obedient 
to the principles of the eternal gospel. One among these, it is presumed, was a savior for them, 
and through him they obtained a resurrection and an exaltation on an eternal, celestial world.[8] 
Then they gained the power and godhood of their Father and were made heirs of all that he had, 
continuing his works and creating worlds of their own for their own posterity—the same as their 
Father had done before, and his Father, and his Father, and on and on" (1971 New Era, People on
Other Worlds). 

[8] Brigham Young, in Journal of Discourses, vol. 14, p. 71.

5]

"Man is a soul, that is, a dual being, a spirit person clothed in a tangible body of flesh and
bones. God is a perfected, saved soul enjoying eternal life. He is both immortal and exalted
to the highest glory. He is enjoying that blessed condition which men may attain to by obedience
to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (How Men Are Saved, President Marion G. Romney,
Second Counselor in the First Presidency, October 1974 General Conference).

6]

"The Prophet explained that “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits 
enthroned in yonder heavens”; that “he was once a man like us;

Along with these concepts is the concept of divine parents, including an exalted Mother who stands 
beside God the Father.

From revelations given to Joseph Smith (see D&C 131–32) and from his own comments about them, plus 
subsequent statements from later prophets,[30] we know that spirit bodies are procreated by resurrected, 
exalted couples who have “a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.” (D&C 132:19.) 
Spirits are “begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of 
the Father.[31] (January 1989 Ensign).

[30] See Teachings, pp. 300–301; “Origin of Man,” pp. 203, 205; Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of 
Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954–56), 2:68–69.

[31] “Origin of Man,” p. 205.

7]

Indeed, the formal pronouncement of the Church, issued by the First Presidency and the Council of 
the Twelve, states: ‘So far as the stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made 
known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings 
can become parents of spirit offspring.’ (Man: His Origin and Destiny, p. 129.)” (Mormon Doctrine, 517).

Preparing for an Eternal Marriage, Religion 234
Building an Eternal Marriage, Religion 235

8]

"Men and women cannot be exalted without each other. Just as we have a Father in Heaven, we have 
a Mother in Heaven" (Essays, Mother in Heaven).

9]

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, basing its belief on divine revelation, ancient 
and modern, proclaims man to be the direct and lineal offspring of Deity. God Himself is an exalted 
man, perfected, enthroned, and supreme" (February 2002 Ensign).

10]

"These spirit beings, the offspring of exalted parents, were men and women, appearing in all respects 
as mortal persons do, excepting only that their spirit bodies were made of a more pure and refined 
substance than the elements from which mortal bodies are made" (Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of
the Gospel Student Manual).

Then we have all these teachings from "Gospel Principles" which reveal other things about the LDS
heavenly parents.  Here are 6 of them.  None of them are portrayed as speculation. I don't believe 
any of them represent the truth.

While you may not classify them as "official doctrine", let me know which number(s) you believe 
are speculative (and why?), true, or false.

1] 

"If we passed our tests, we would receive the fulness of joy that our heavenly parents have 
received". (See D&C 93:30–34.)

My takeaway: heavenly parents received a fulness of joy.

2]

"We would have a resurrected body; we would have all power in heaven and on earth; we would become 
heavenly parents and have spirit children just as he does (see D&C 132:19–20).

My takeaway: we would also have a resurrected body like Heavenly Father.

3]

"Because we are made in his image (see Moses 6:9), we know that God has a body that looks like 
ours. His eternal spirit is housed in a tangible body of flesh and bones (see D&C 130:22). God's 
body, however, is perfected and glorified, with a glory beyond all description".

My takeaway: the body of Heavenly Father was perfected.

4]

"Our Heavenly Father is a real person with a tangible, perfected body of flesh and bones".

My takeaway: the body of Heavenly Father was perfected.

5] 

"We learned that if we placed our faith in him, obeying his word and following his example, we
would be exalted and become like our heavenly parents. We would receive a fulness of joy".

My takeaway: the LDS Heavenly Mother and Father received their fulness of joy.  This is associated
with exaltation, becoming a God.  This is the LDS plan of salvation, following the example set by 
heavenly parents. 

6]

"We can be exalted as God is and receive a fulness of joy. We can, at some future time, increase 
our family by having spirit children".

My takeaway: exaltation brings a fulness of joy. We can receive it, as our heavenly parents also 
received it.
 

On 2/22/2026 at 8:59 PM, InCognitus said:

Jesus Christ is "the Father" in LDS doctrine in that He is the creator of the earth (Eph 3:9, Heb 11:1-2, John 1:1-3,14).  Therefore, as the Book of Mormon teaches, Jesus is considered the "Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are." (Ether 4:7.)

But Mosiah 15:2-3 says Jesus is the Father "because he was conceived by the power of God" and is 
the Son "because of the flesh".

What conception makes Jesus the Father?  Isn't Jesus the Son before the flesh?
 

On 2/22/2026 at 8:59 PM, InCognitus said:

But we do need to compare everything against the revelations and established church doctrines as determined by the council of the twelve (as it was done in New Testament Christianity as shown in Acts chapter 15).

I wish the LDS Church would jettison a lot of what it currently teaches in seminary manuals and 
what it has taught in past general conferences, magazines, and books.  We can't do much with all 
the ways Joseph added and removed from the Bible. They are either true or false. The list is quite 
extensive.

We need to examine all teachings, whether they are classified as official doctrine or not.

The earliest origin about the existence of a heavenly mother comes from Joseph Smith.  It is 
mentioned in an Ensign article ("The Lord as a Role Model for Men and Women").

"Building upon the foundation laid by Joseph Smith, subsequent prophets taught that God was not 
single, but married; that there is a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother; and that we were made 
in their image: male and female children" (See James R. Clark, comp., Messages of the First 
Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 6 vols., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 
1965–75, 4:203, 205.)

The so-called foundation laid by Joseph Smith would eventually become official doctrine in "The 
Family: Proclamation to the World" on September 23, 1995.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/the-family-a-proclamation-to-the-world/the-family-a-proclamation-to-the-world?lang=eng

I found some teachings on what is considered doctrine.

"What God teaches is called doctrine. God supplies doctrine for His children by way of 
commandments and instructions that will bless them and bring them happiness. Just as He 
did in Old Testament times, God continues to reveal doctrine through prophet" (What is Doctrine?).

I suppose the instruction that "we should not shop, hunt, fish, attend sports events, or
participate in similar activities on that day [the Sabbath]" would be one of these doctrines.

But I understand some things come with a caveat:

At the same time it should be remembered that not every statement made by a Church leader, past 
or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement
made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion,
not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church" (April 2012 General Conference).

It may not constitute doctrine, but is it true or false?

Then we have this other admonition:

"True principles are taught frequently and by many. Our doctrine is not difficult to find" (November 2012
General Conference).

"Gospel Principles" comes to mind.  These principles are regarded as LDS truth, right?

Then another: 

"We feast on the word of God in the scriptures and study the words of the living prophets. Because 
we need the Holy Ghost, we must be cautious and careful not to go beyond teaching true doctrine. 
The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Truth" (May 1999 Ensign).

The words of the dead and living prophets are found in many places.  Obviously you don't want to
feast on false words.  If "Gospel Principles", other publications of the LDS Church, and General
Conference talks do not contain true doctrine, then one is found in violation. 

There's also an article entitled "What is Mormon Doctrine?" on FAIRLDS.

It focuses more on "official doctrine" and mentions that the LDS leaders are fallible.  So they
can teach errors and lead members astray. It doesn't touch on the subject of "unofficial doctrine".  
So I routinely reference publications like "Gospel Doctrine", "Doctrines of the Gospel Student 
Manual", or "Gospel Principles". 

The first two, I would say, are regarded as teaching the truth as understood by the LDS Church.
After all, why would it teach something it believed was false or speculation? Also, why teach a
bunch of things, put it in a book with the term "doctrine" in the title and then say one shouldn't 
view the contents as doctrine?  Then we have "Doctrines of Salvation". Do you see what I mean?  

Then add "Gospel Principles". Are the principles true or false?  I would say the LDS Church believes 
them to be true.

Then we have speeches at General Conference.  Why convey it to the crowd if you don't believe what
you are saying is the truth?  Do we lump it all in the "it's not official doctrine so it's not true"
pile?  Of course not. If I were a Latter-day Saint, I would be expecting to be hearing the truth 
instead of being led astray. I assume you feel the same way about what you hear and what you read, 
past present and future from the LDS Church.
 

On 2/22/2026 at 8:59 PM, InCognitus said:

Alma 11:38-40:  “Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?  And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;  And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.”

Thank you for providing the other verses about Jesus (God) taking on human flesh (Mosiah 3:5-9, 2 
Nephi 9:5, 2 Nephi 9:20-22).

In Alma 11, this salvation (eternal life; ie. exaltation) does not apply to the two lower divisions
of the celestial kingdom, and the telestial/terrestrial inhabitants.

Mosiah provides an explanation for those who are redeemed.

"And now, the resurrection of all the prophets, and all those that have believed in their words, 
or all those that have kept the commandments of God, shall come forth in the first resurrection; 
therefore, they are the first resurrection. They are raised to dwell with God who has redeemed 
them; thus they have eternal life through Christ, who has broken the bands of death. And these 
are those who have part in the first resurrection; and these are they that have died before Christ 
came, in their ignorance, not having salvation declared unto them. And thus the Lord bringeth 
about the restoration of these; and they have a part in the first resurrection, or have eternal 
life, being redeemed by the Lord. And little children also have eternal life. But behold, and 
fear, and tremble before God, for ye ought to tremble; for the Lord redeemeth none such that rebel 
against him and die in their sins; yea, even all those that have perished in their sins ever since 
the world began, that have wilfully rebelled against God, that have known the commandments of God, 
and would not keep them; these are they that have no part in the first resurrection. Therefore 
ought ye not to tremble? For salvation cometh to none such; for the Lord hath redeemed none such; 
yea, neither can the Lord redeem such; for he cannot deny himself; for he cannot deny justice when 
it has its claim" (Mosiah 15:22-27).
 
It's explained in a more shorter form with John 3:16 ("For God so loved the world, that he gave 
his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life", ESV). This 
would mean that all who fail to reach exaltation will perish.

[teddyaware]

22 minutes ago, theplains said:

It seems I am not able to answer the question to your satisfaction.

The Latter-day Saints teach some things about Christ which are not coming from either the Book 
of Mormon or the Bible. For example, he is taught to be the first spirit child of a heavenly 
mother who became a God prior to coming to earth in a mortal body.
 
Different religions have their own versions of Christ. In Islam, he's only a prophet.  In the
Watchtower, he is Michael the Archangel.
 
Do you believe these people are saved because they believe some things about him but reject other 
important things, and what is your authority for saying yes or no?
 

I can find nothing in the King Follett Discourse which shows that Heavenly Father became God "in 
the sense" of him having spirit children with one or more of his wives.  

Do you?  If yes, then provide something to support that belief.

I did read your reply on 05/26/2025 but it basically is summarized in your statement "we always 
need to consider the context of what is said in a revelation or in a particular sermon", but it
did not address what I was seeking.

Don't conflate the "God became God when he became our Parent" argument with Joseph Smith saying 
"We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and 
take away the veil, so that you may see".

I already provided LDS teachings, beyond the King Follett Discourse, which show Heavenly Father 
was not always God and he was not always a Heavenly Father. And I agree with you - none of these 
teachings are supported by scripture.  They are not new; they go back decades.

Here are 10 of them.  None of them are portrayed as speculation. I don't believe any of them
represent the truth.

While you may not classify them as "official doctrine", let me know which number(s) you believe 
are speculative (and why?), true, or false.

1]  

"Through a continual course of progression, our Heavenly Father has received exaltation 
and glory; and He points us out the same path” (Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel 
Student Manual).

2]

"His work and His glory, He told us, is “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal 
life of man.” He has already achieved godhood. Now His only objective is to help us—to 
enable us to return to Him and be like Him and live His kind of life eternally" ("But If 
Not ...", By Elder Dennis E. Simmons Of the Seventy, April 2004 General Conference).

3]

“Less well understood, however, is the fact that God is an exalted man who once lived 
on an earth and underwent experiences of mortality . The Prophet Joseph Smith refers to 
this as "the great secret." (Times and Seasons 5:613, August 15 1844). See also Joseph 
Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345.) The progression of our Father in 
heaven to godhood, or exaltation, was strictly in accordance with eternal principles” 
(Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual).

4]

"Long before our God began his creations, he dwelt on a mortal world like ours, one of the creations 
that his Father had created for him and his brethren. He, with many of his brethren, was obedient 
to the principles of the eternal gospel. One among these, it is presumed, was a savior for them, 
and through him they obtained a resurrection and an exaltation on an eternal, celestial world.[8] 
Then they gained the power and godhood of their Father and were made heirs of all that he had, 
continuing his works and creating worlds of their own for their own posterity—the same as their 
Father had done before, and his Father, and his Father, and on and on" (1971 New Era, People on
Other Worlds). 

[8] Brigham Young, in Journal of Discourses, vol. 14, p. 71.

5]

"Man is a soul, that is, a dual being, a spirit person clothed in a tangible body of flesh and
bones. God is a perfected, saved soul enjoying eternal life. He is both immortal and exalted
to the highest glory. He is enjoying that blessed condition which men may attain to by obedience
to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (How Men Are Saved, President Marion G. Romney,
Second Counselor in the First Presidency, October 1974 General Conference).

6]

"The Prophet explained that “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits 
enthroned in yonder heavens”; that “he was once a man like us;

Along with these concepts is the concept of divine parents, including an exalted Mother who stands 
beside God the Father.

From revelations given to Joseph Smith (see D&C 131–32) and from his own comments about them, plus 
subsequent statements from later prophets,[30] we know that spirit bodies are procreated by resurrected, 
exalted couples who have “a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.” (D&C 132:19.) 
Spirits are “begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of 
the Father.[31] (January 1989 Ensign).

[30] See Teachings, pp. 300–301; “Origin of Man,” pp. 203, 205; Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of 
Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954–56), 2:68–69.

[31] “Origin of Man,” p. 205.

7]

Indeed, the formal pronouncement of the Church, issued by the First Presidency and the Council of 
the Twelve, states: ‘So far as the stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made 
known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings 
can become parents of spirit offspring.’ (Man: His Origin and Destiny, p. 129.)” (Mormon Doctrine, 517).

Preparing for an Eternal Marriage, Religion 234
Building an Eternal Marriage, Religion 235

8]

"Men and women cannot be exalted without each other. Just as we have a Father in Heaven, we have 
a Mother in Heaven" (Essays, Mother in Heaven).

9]

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, basing its belief on divine revelation, ancient 
and modern, proclaims man to be the direct and lineal offspring of Deity. God Himself is an exalted 
man, perfected, enthroned, and supreme" (February 2002 Ensign).

10]

"These spirit beings, the offspring of exalted parents, were men and women, appearing in all respects 
as mortal persons do, excepting only that their spirit bodies were made of a more pure and refined 
substance than the elements from which mortal bodies are made" (Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of
the Gospel Student Manual).

Then we have all these teachings from "Gospel Principles" which reveal other things about the LDS
heavenly parents.  Here are 6 of them.  None of them are portrayed as speculation. I don't believe 
any of them represent the truth.

While you may not classify them as "official doctrine", let me know which number(s) you believe 
are speculative (and why?), true, or false.

1] 

"If we passed our tests, we would receive the fulness of joy that our heavenly parents have 
received". (See D&C 93:30–34.)

My takeaway: heavenly parents received a fulness of joy.

2]

"We would have a resurrected body; we would have all power in heaven and on earth; we would become 
heavenly parents and have spirit children just as he does (see D&C 132:19–20).

My takeaway: we would also have a resurrected body like Heavenly Father.

3]

"Because we are made in his image (see Moses 6:9), we know that God has a body that looks like 
ours. His eternal spirit is housed in a tangible body of flesh and bones (see D&C 130:22). God's 
body, however, is perfected and glorified, with a glory beyond all description".

My takeaway: the body of Heavenly Father was perfected.

4]

"Our Heavenly Father is a real person with a tangible, perfected body of flesh and bones".

My takeaway: the body of Heavenly Father was perfected.

5] 

"We learned that if we placed our faith in him, obeying his word and following his example, we
would be exalted and become like our heavenly parents. We would receive a fulness of joy".

My takeaway: the LDS Heavenly Mother and Father received their fulness of joy.  This is associated
with exaltation, becoming a God.  This is the LDS plan of salvation, following the example set by 
heavenly parents. 

6]

"We can be exalted as God is and receive a fulness of joy. We can, at some future time, increase 
our family by having spirit children".

My takeaway: exaltation brings a fulness of joy. We can receive it, as our heavenly parents also 
received it.
 

But Mosiah 15:2-3 says Jesus is the Father "because he was conceived by the power of God" and is 
the Son "because of the flesh".

What conception makes Jesus the Father?  Isn't Jesus the Son before the flesh?
 

I wish the LDS Church would jettison a lot of what it currently teaches in seminary manuals and 
what it has taught in past general conferences, magazines, and books.  We can't do much with all 
the ways Joseph added and removed from the Bible. They are either true or false. The list is quite 
extensive.

We need to examine all teachings, whether they are classified as official doctrine or not.

The earliest origin about the existence of a heavenly mother comes from Joseph Smith.  It is 
mentioned in an Ensign article ("The Lord as a Role Model for Men and Women").

"Building upon the foundation laid by Joseph Smith, subsequent prophets taught that God was not 
single, but married; that there is a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother; and that we were made 
in their image: male and female children" (See James R. Clark, comp., Messages of the First 
Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 6 vols., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 
1965–75, 4:203, 205.)

The so-called foundation laid by Joseph Smith would eventually become official doctrine in "The 
Family: Proclamation to the World" on September 23, 1995.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/the-family-a-proclamation-to-the-world/the-family-a-proclamation-to-the-world?lang=eng

I found some teachings on what is considered doctrine.

"What God teaches is called doctrine. God supplies doctrine for His children by way of 
commandments and instructions that will bless them and bring them happiness. Just as He 
did in Old Testament times, God continues to reveal doctrine through prophet" (What is Doctrine?).

I suppose the instruction that "we should not shop, hunt, fish, attend sports events, or
participate in similar activities on that day [the Sabbath]" would be one of these doctrines.

But I understand some things come with a caveat:

At the same time it should be remembered that not every statement made by a Church leader, past 
or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement
made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion,
not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church" (April 2012 General Conference).

It may not constitute doctrine, but is it true or false?

Then we have this other admonition:

"True principles are taught frequently and by many. Our doctrine is not difficult to find" (November 2012
General Conference).

"Gospel Principles" comes to mind.  These principles are regarded as LDS truth, right?

Then another: 

"We feast on the word of God in the scriptures and study the words of the living prophets. Because 
we need the Holy Ghost, we must be cautious and careful not to go beyond teaching true doctrine. 
The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Truth" (May 1999 Ensign).

The words of the dead and living prophets are found in many places.  Obviously you don't want to
feast on false words.  If "Gospel Principles", other publications of the LDS Church, and General
Conference talks do not contain true doctrine, then one is found in violation. 

There's also an article entitled "What is Mormon Doctrine?" on FAIRLDS.

It focuses more on "official doctrine" and mentions that the LDS leaders are fallible.  So they
can teach errors and lead members astray. It doesn't touch on the subject of "unofficial doctrine".  
So I routinely reference publications like "Gospel Doctrine", "Doctrines of the Gospel Student 
Manual", or "Gospel Principles". 

The first two, I would say, are regarded as teaching the truth as understood by the LDS Church.
After all, why would it teach something it believed was false or speculation? Also, why teach a
bunch of things, put it in a book with the term "doctrine" in the title and then say one shouldn't 
view the contents as doctrine?  Then we have "Doctrines of Salvation". Do you see what I mean?  

Then add "Gospel Principles". Are the principles true or false?  I would say the LDS Church believes 
them to be true.

Then we have speeches at General Conference.  Why convey it to the crowd if you don't believe what
you are saying is the truth?  Do we lump it all in the "it's not official doctrine so it's not true"
pile?  Of course not. If I were a Latter-day Saint, I would be expecting to be hearing the truth 
instead of being led astray. I assume you feel the same way about what you hear and what you read, 
past present and future from the LDS Church.
 

Thank you for providing the other verses about Jesus (God) taking on human flesh (Mosiah 3:5-9, 2 
Nephi 9:5, 2 Nephi 9:20-22).

In Alma 11, this salvation (eternal life; ie. exaltation) does not apply to the two lower divisions
of the celestial kingdom, and the telestial/terrestrial inhabitants.

Mosiah provides an explanation for those who are redeemed.

"And now, the resurrection of all the prophets, and all those that have believed in their words, 
or all those that have kept the commandments of God, shall come forth in the first resurrection; 
therefore, they are the first resurrection. They are raised to dwell with God who has redeemed 
them; thus they have eternal life through Christ, who has broken the bands of death. And these 
are those who have part in the first resurrection; and these are they that have died before Christ 
came, in their ignorance, not having salvation declared unto them. And thus the Lord bringeth 
about the restoration of these; and they have a part in the first resurrection, or have eternal 
life, being redeemed by the Lord. And little children also have eternal life. But behold, and 
fear, and tremble before God, for ye ought to tremble; for the Lord redeemeth none such that rebel 
against him and die in their sins; yea, even all those that have perished in their sins ever since 
the world began, that have wilfully rebelled against God, that have known the commandments of God, 
and would not keep them; these are they that have no part in the first resurrection. Therefore 
ought ye not to tremble? For salvation cometh to none such; for the Lord hath redeemed none such; 
yea, neither can the Lord redeem such; for he cannot deny himself; for he cannot deny justice when 
it has its claim" (Mosiah 15:22-27).
 
It's explained in a more shorter form with John 3:16 ("For God so loved the world, that he gave 
his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life", ESV). This 
would mean that all who fail to reach exaltation will perish.

By divine design, the Book of Mormon, as we presently have it, without the inclusion of a translation of the sealed portion, deliberately contains a more rudimentary and less nuanced presentation of the plan of salvation than the more expansive and inclusive plan of salvation that’s set forth in the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price. In point of fact, Mormon was actually about to include the more expansive presentation of the plan of salvation in his abridgment, but for a wise purpose God forbade him to do so but not without extending the promise that if the the saints of the latter-days accept the Book of Mormon and prove faithful the more complete and detailed plan of salvation will be uncovered and revealed to them. Nevertheless, the broad theme of the portion of King Benjamin’s sermon that you quote are indeed doctrinally correct, for in the end it’s true that the only souls who will not be saved are the unredeemed sons of perdition who will continue to persist in their rebellion against against Christ until it is everlastingly too late. You’ll continue to fail to accurately interpret the Book of Mormon if you don’t understand the fact that it’s actually a basic gospel doctrine primer and not a comprehensive catalogue of all gospel mysteries.

8 And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people. From the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.

9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater be made manifest unto them.

10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.

11 Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people. (3 Nephi 26)

The following verses address your last point:

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made. (Doctrine and Covenant 76)

 

[theplains]

On 3/2/2026 at 4:58 PM, teddyaware said:

You’ll continue to fail to accurately interpret the Book of Mormon if you don’t understand the fact that it’s actually a basic gospel doctrine primer and not a comprehensive catalogue of all gospel mysteries.

How does the Book of Mormon contain the fulness of the gospel?
 

On 3/2/2026 at 4:58 PM, teddyaware said:

The following verses address your last point:

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

The second death will have power on all who are not in the first resurrection (Revelation 20:1-6).