Foretelling in the Book of Mormon

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, the narrator said:

Seeing that he was 20 at the time, this would have likely referred to his own study--whatever that may be. Whatever he was doing at the time, he wasn't farming.

If we had some ham, we could have ham and eggs, but we don't have any eggs.

[Zosimus]

On 7/27/2024 at 4:28 AM, the narrator said:

Just came across this from Joseph's 1826 trial:

"Arad Stowel[l] sworn, says that he went to see whether Prisoner could convince him that he possessed the skill that he professed to have, upon which prisoner laid a Book open upon a White Cloth, and proposed looking through another stone which was white and transparent; held the stone to the candle, turned his back to book and read"

Seems a pretty strong example of Joseph's ability to memorize parts of a text which he would later dictate while looking through a stone.

Edited July 29, 2024 by Zosimus

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, Zosimus said:

"Arad Stowel[l] sworn, says that he went to see whether Prisoner could convince him that he possessed the skill that he professed to have, upon which prisoner laid a Book open upon a White Cloth, and proposed looking through another stone which was white and transparent; held the stone to the candle, turned his back to book and read"

Seems a pretty strong example of Joseph's ability to memorize parts of a text which he would later dictate while looking through a stone.

If this anecdote is true, of course……”many a castle has been built in the sky, why not build one a story higher?” Over 500 pages of this would indeed be a prodigious feat. 

Edited July 29, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[webbles]

11 hours ago, Zosimus said:

"Arad Stowel[l] sworn, says that he went to see whether Prisoner could convince him that he possessed the skill that he professed to have, upon which prisoner laid a Book open upon a White Cloth, and proposed looking through another stone which was white and transparent; held the stone to the candle, turned his back to book and read"

Seems a pretty strong example of Joseph's ability to memorize parts of a text which he would later dictate while looking through a stone.

It's also a pretty strong example that Joseph could look use the seer stone.  It depends on whether you accept the seer stone or not.

[Zosimus]

15 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

If this anecdote is true, of course……”many a castle has been built in the sky, why not build one a story higher?” Over 500 pages of this would indeed be a prodigious feat. 

All 500 pages weren't dictated in a single day. How many words/pages were dictated per day? Memorize two pages at night, dictate it the next day. Repeat. 

Also, there wasn't someone looking in on the process the entire time so it wouldn't be necessary to memorize the entire text.

Have you ever read Paradise Lost? Its arguably more complex than the Book of Mormon. Milton was blind. He had the whole thing in his head and his daughter wrote it down.

[Zosimus]

15 hours ago, webbles said:

It's also a pretty strong example that Joseph could look use the seer stone.  It depends on whether you accept the seer stone or not.

That's true. But I don't believe Joseph would be allowed to translate using divine powers if it was worldy treasure he was seeking. Do you think the seer stones were working for him while he was treasure digging in 1826?

[webbles]

5 hours ago, Zosimus said:

That's true. But I don't believe Joseph would be allowed to translate using divine powers if it was worldy treasure he was seeking. Do you think the seer stones were working for him while he was treasure digging in 1826?

I don't see why it wouldn't work for him.  I don't hold the idea that gifts of the Spirit are only available to those who use them righteously.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

21 hours ago, webbles said:

It's also a pretty strong example that Joseph could look use the seer stone.  It depends on whether you accept the seer stone or not.

If you accept the story as true, why doesn't God do such trivial miracles today? The request seems like pure sign seeking which, per my understanding of your church's teachings, is verboten. 

[webbles]

22 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

If you accept the story as true, why doesn't God do such trivial miracles today? The request seems like pure sign seeking which, per my understanding of your church's teachings, is verboten. 

People talk about praying to find their keys and then finding them.  That sounds like a pretty trivial miracle.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

28 minutes ago, webbles said:

People talk about praying to find their keys and then finding them.  That sounds like a pretty trivial miracle.

I’d say this is more like going up to Russell Nelson and asking him to prophecy and tell me where I hid my keys. 

Edited July 30, 2024 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Calm]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

don't hold the idea that gifts of the Spirit are only available to those who use them righteously.

Given some of the stories in the Bible, I would agree with you.

[webbles]

56 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I’d say this is more like going up to Russell Nelson and asking him to prophecy and tell me where I hid my keys. 

Joseph was a nobody at that time.  Maybe more like asking my neighbor down the road to use a seer stone that he says he has.  I know people have used dowsing and say it works.  Kind of similar in my mind.

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, Zosimus said:

All 500 pages weren't dictated in a single day. How many words/pages were dictated per day? Memorize two pages at night, dictate it the next day. Repeat. 

Also, there wasn't someone looking in on the process the entire time so it wouldn't be necessary to memorize the entire text.

Have you ever read Paradise Lost? It’s arguably more complex than the Book of Mormon. Milton was blind. He had the whole thing in his head and his daughter wrote it down.

Okay, but this doesn’t comport at all with the descriptions provided by those who were there. Milton was a highly educated scholar and writer. He studied many works in politics, history, theology, literature, philosophy, and science, and was proficient  in a number of ancient and modern languages, a prodigious writer and traveler. He was in his late fifties when PL was published. Beethoven wrote much of his greatest music when he was totally deaf. Bach and Handel suffered from severe eye problems. They were all carefully trained and highly skilled musicians from their youth. Joseph was like none of the above  

Seems kind of pointless to compare Joseph with Milton. I don’t know if we could find two more disparate individuals, but that’s just my opinion.

.

Edited July 30, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, webbles said:

People talk about praying to find their keys and then finding them.  That sounds like a pretty trivial miracle.

What father whose son asked him for bread would give him a stone?

Edited July 30, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I’d say this is more like going up to Russell Nelson and asking him to prophecy and tell me where I hid my keys. 

A sparrow does not fall without Him noticing.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

What father whose son asked him for bread would give him a stone?

God may not give stones in my belief, but I know many people who feel at times that is exactly what he is doing (or even throwing stones at them) when something else in their lives crashes even though they are being faithful to the best of their ability.

Edited July 30, 2024 by Calm

[Zosimus]

8 hours ago, webbles said:

People talk about praying to find their keys and then finding them.  That sounds like a pretty trivial miracle.

Your take on the 1826 testimony is that Joseph Smith was able to read a book through a stone after being asked by a skeptic to produce a sign of his ability to find buried treasure? Remember in that same year, Joseph was told he couldn't have the gold plates because he had a desire to sell them for money. Why would God do anything to support Joseph in his treasure digging while at the same time putting him on probation for treasure digging?

The simpler take on this, is the one the witness testified to under oath. That it was a treasure digger's trick.

[Zosimus]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Okay, but this doesn’t comport at all with the descriptions provided by those who were there. Milton was a highly educated scholar and writer. He studied many works in politics, history, theology, literature, philosophy, and science, and was proficient  in a number of ancient and modern languages, a prodigious writer and traveler. He was in his late fifties when PL was published. Beethoven wrote much of his greatest music when he was totally deaf. Bach and Handel suffered from severe eye problems. They were all carefully trained and highly skilled musicians from their youth. Joseph was like none of the above  

Seems kind of pointless to compare Joseph with Milton. I don’t know if we could find two more disparate individuals, but that’s just my opinion..

Not at all pointless. The Book of Mormon is pretty amazing too IMO. I just don't think there's a strong argument that the complexity of the text is proof that it wasn't written in advance, or memorized. I've seen with my own eyes eight-year old kids reciting pages and pages of the Quran by memory. Joesph could have memorized a couple pages, then dictated them the next day. Then memorized a couple more pages. Repeat. If he was doing this in 1826 while treasure digging, why would it not be possible in 1827 and 1828 while dictating the Book of Mormom?

Edited July 31, 2024 by Zosimus

[webbles]

56 minutes ago, Zosimus said:

Your take on the 1826 testimony is that Joseph Smith was able to read a book through a stone after being asked by a skeptic to produce a sign of his ability to find buried treasure? Remember in that same year, Joseph was told he couldn't have the gold plates because he had a desire to sell them for money. Why would God do anything to support Joseph in his treasure digging while at the same time putting him on probation for treasure digging?

The simpler take on this, is the one the witness testified to under oath. That it was a treasure digger's trick.

I guess I'm confused on why you think that Joseph using his seer stone is somehow God supporting him in his treasure digging.  People have used their gifts of the Spirit for lots of monetary reasons and I don't think God supports them.

Also, it is pretty rare for a person to glance at a page and then recite it from memory.  I know of only one (Kim Peek).  Do you know of others who could glance at a page and memorize it?

[Zosimus]

14 minutes ago, webbles said:

I guess I'm confused on why you think that Joseph using his seer stone is somehow God supporting him in his treasure digging.  People have used their gifts of the Spirit for lots of monetary reasons and I don't think God supports them.

Also, it is pretty rare for a person to glance at a page and then recite it from memory.  I know of only one (Kim Peek).  Do you know of others who could glance at a page and memorize it?

Whatever happened, it wasn't an effective display of a gift. The witness to the performance said "the deception appeared so palpable that [he] went off disgusted".

[ZealouslyStriving]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

God may not give stones in my belief, but I know many people who feel at times that is exactly what he is doing (or even throwing stones at them) when something else in their lives crashes even though they are being faithful to the best of their ability.

So they believe that because of their righteousness they should be free of the vicissitudes of life?

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 hours ago, Zosimus said:

Not at all pointless. The Book of Mormon is pretty amazing too IMO. I just don't think there's a strong argument that the complexity of the text is proof that it wasn't written in advance, or memorized. I've seen with my own eyes eight-year old kids reciting pages and pages of the Quran by memory. Joesph could have memorized a couple pages, then dictated them the next day. Then memorized a couple more pages. Repeat. If he was doing this in 1826 while treasure digging, why would it not be possible in 1827 and 1828 while dictating the Book of Mormom?

Memorized WHAT exactly?

[Zosimus]

14 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Memorized WHAT exactly?

The Book of Mormon. The discussion is about how impossible it would have been for Joseph Smith to keep all the different threads found within the Book of Mormon straight as he dictated over 500 pages of text. I don't think it's impossible. He could have either committed the whole thing to his memory in the years previous to the dictation, or he could have worked out two pages at a time the evening previous to the dictation.

Although I am open to the possibility that Joseph was some sort of receptacle for streams of cached spiritual texts (read my previous comments on both Swedenborg's Tartary texts and the terma/terton tradition), the simpler explanation is that the Book of Mormon came from Joseph's memory.

[ZealouslyStriving]

15 minutes ago, Zosimus said:

The Book of Mormon. The discussion is about how impossible it would have been for Joseph Smith to keep all the different threads found within the Book of Mormon straight as he dictated over 500 pages of text. I don't think it's impossible. He could have either committed the whole thing to his memory in the years previous to the dictation, or he could have worked out two pages at a time the evening previous to the dictation.

Although I am open to the possibility that Joseph was some sort of receptacle for streams of cached spiritual texts (read my previous comments on both Swedenborg's Tartary texts and the terma/terton tradition), the simpler explanation is that the Book of Mormon came from Joseph's memory.

The Book of Mormon wasn't written until Joseph translated it.

Who are you proposing wrote the manuscript Joseph "memorized"?

How did Joseph come into possession of said manuscript?

What wouldn't the writer judge start his own religion instead of recruiting a kid from rural upstate New York? Why did he choose Joseph of all people?

Edited July 31, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Zosimus said:

Not at all pointless. The Book of Mormon is pretty amazing too IMO. I just don't think there's a strong argument that the complexity of the text is proof that it wasn't written in advance, or memorized. I've seen with my own eyes eight-year old kids reciting pages and pages of the Quran by memory. Joesph could have memorized a couple pages, then dictated them the next day. Then memorized a couple more pages. Repeat. If he was doing this in 1826 while treasure digging, why would it not be possible in 1827 and 1828 while dictating the Book of Mormom?

Kids do amazing things, I suppose. Joseph was not a prodigy. He did not have the advantages of highly advanced education and experiences like Milton. He lived in a small home that was frequented by many other people. They never mentioned him studying a manuscript by night and repeating it by memory the next day. When did he write it? Where did he conceal it? Why bother with a fake translation process if he already had the book written?
 

https://rsc.byu.edu/coming-forth-book-mormon/firsthand-witness-accounts-translation-process

Quote

Just months before her death, Emma told her son that she “frequently wrote day after day” at a small table in their house in Harmony. Joseph could not have concealed anything from Emma, as she sat “at the table close by him”—close enough to see exactly how the translation occurred. Believing that her husband could not have produced the text of the Book of Mormon on his own, Emma was as astonished by the translation as anyone. “Though I was an active participant in the scenes that transpired, and was present during the translation of the plates,” she told one interviewer, as mentioned above, “it is marvelous to me, ‘a marvel and a wonder,’ as much so as to anyone else…

…Addressing criticisms that Joseph read from a prepared script or the Bible, Joseph III carefully inquired about her experience. Emma declared, “he had neither manuscript nor book to read from.” In Emma’s understanding, Joseph could not have read from anything that was not inside the hat, which was too small to encompass a large manuscript or a sizable Bible. ‘If he had had anything of the kind [books or manuscripts],” Emma declared, “he could not have concealed it from me.” The seer stone in the hat was central to the translation; it was small enough to fit easily inside the hat, and according to Emma, the words appeared on the stones. Additionally, she explained that the plates “often lay on the table without any attempt at concealment, wrapped in a small linen table cloth”…

Finally, though an examination of the translation relying on witness statements alone could be criticized as limited, it provides a historical foundation for others to expand upon. Literary theory, historical cognition studies, critical text work, and approaches from psychology will continue to produce interesting and thought-provoking theories and analyses, but the bedrock of their studies should be a well-documented religious experience given in the words of those who experienced it.

Memorizing and regurgitating bits at a time does not comport with the experiences of those who were there in that small home. 

Edited July 31, 2024 by Bernard Gui