Church of Christ, RLDS, etc?

[Dirk]

How do the RLDS, Church of Christ (Temple Lot folks) differ? I'm listening to a podcast covering the court case but it's more about who owned the Temple Lot and not doctrine. 

Thanks, 

Dirk.

[Dirk]

I meant to ask "how do they differ from LDS...?"

 

Thanks.

[Calm]

Do you want the historical differences over time or just the current ones?

[Calm]

There is a board member who has been a member of both and hopefully they will speak up as most LDS in my experience don’t know much about the RLDS/CoC besides broad principles.

wiki has a page on this, no time to read it though…so will comment later on accuracy
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_Community_of_Christ_and_the_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

[Pyreaux]

LDS: After the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith and his brother Hyram (as his successor) created a "succession crisis", the Apostles were next in authority, Brigham Young was the senior Apostle along with most of the Apostles who made Brigham the Prophet. There is a tale that Brigham during a speech Transfigured into the image and voice of Joseph Smith, that convinced folk it was a sign Brigham was chosen. He moved 20,000 LDS to Utah, among the differences is they pick Apostles to be the Prophet, and an open practice of polygamy Brigham claims Joseph taught.

RLDS, Reorganized LDS / Community of Christ: Two LDS apostate Apostles claimed Brigham is an apostate and the church needed to be "reorganized", so they and three non-LDS, claim to have a vision that the Joseph Smith III should be the successor. The child at first refused, but years later he accepted. Most everyone who didn't move away from Missouri to Utah basically became RLDS, or other sects that mostly diminished since. They reject polygamy and insist the prophetic succession transfers from family, father to son. They had a million members, but they keep breaking in half. Such as when they changed their name to the Community of Christ, but half broke away to be the Remnant LDS. A very Liberal Leftwing version of LDS. 

FLDS, Fundamentalist LDS: The 3rd LDS prophet John Taylor ended polygamy.  The FLDS claim John Taylor secretly ordained their leaders, so they could continue to practice polygamy which they claim is a "fundamental" doctrine. They live in compounds to cohabitate with their clerically married spouses. They show up in the news a lot, getting into trouble.

There are other smaller sects, Strangites, Bickertonites, and Temple Lot folk who owned the lot of the destroyed Nauvoo Temple. RLDS had many other properties left behind. I don't know much about Temple Lot beliefs. LDS wanted the lot back, so they had a court battle.

RLDS/CoC can be cool, they just don't do [Nauvoo-style] Temples, Temples and Temple rites are uniquely important to me. It's what I know and understand about Christianity. Sacred spaces, priests, shaking hands, white baptism cloths and wedding gowns.

Edited May 23, 2024 by Pyreaux

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

LDS: After the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith and his brother Hyram (as his successor) created a "succession crisis", the Apostles were next in authority, Brigham Young was the senior Apostle along with most of the Apostle who made Brigham the Prophet. There is a tale that Brigham during a speech Transfigured into the image and voice of Joseph Smith, that convinced folk it was a sign Brigham was chosen. He moved 20,000 LDS to Utah, among the differences is they pick Apostles to be the Prophet, and an open practice of polygamy Brigham claims Joseph taught.

RLDS, Reorganized LDS / Community of Christ: Two apostate Apostles claimed Brigham is an apostate and the church needed to be "reorganized", so they and three non-LDS, claim to have a vision that the Joseph Smith III was to be the successor. The child refused, but years later he accepted. Most everyone didn't move away from Missouri to Utah became RLDS. They reject polygamy and insist prophetic succession transfers from father to son. They had a million members, but they keep breaking in half. Such as when they changed their name to the Community of Christ, but half broke away to be the Remnant LDS. A very Liberal Leftwing version of LDS. 

FLDS, Fundamentalist LDS: The 3rd LDS prophet John Taylor ended polygamy.  The FLDS claim John Taylor secretly ordained there leaders, so they could continue to practice polygamy as they claim is a "fundamental" doctrine. They live in compounds to cohabitate with their clerically married spouses. They show up in the news a lot, getting into trouble.

There are other smaller sects, Strangites, Bickertonites, and Temple Lot folk who owned the lot of the destroyed Nauvoo Temple. RLDS had many other properties left behind. I don't know much about Temple Lot beliefs. LDS wanted the lot back, so they had a court battle.

RLDS/CoC can be cool, they just don't do Temples, Temples and Temple rites are uniquely important to me. It's what I know and understand about Christianity. Sacred spaces, priests, shaking hands, white baptism cloths and wedding gowns.

Eh, kinda.... You have some things wrong.

I'll make some corrections later.

[ZealouslyStriving]

3 hours ago, Dirk said:

I meant to ask "how do they differ from LDS...?"

 

Thanks.

Do you have any specific things you want to know? I have been involved with both Fundamentalists and RLDS Restorationists. And know Temple Lot Apostles personally.

Edited May 22, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

an open practice of polygamy Brigham claims Joseph taught.

RLDS never had the Priesthood ban for Blacks with African heritage either; the CoC allows women to hold the Priesthood and have female apostles iirc

 

Edited May 22, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

they just don't do Temples

They have temples (two, now one), they don’t use temples the same way though.

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

They have temples (two, now one), they don’t use temples the same way though.

I know about the Independence MO one but where is the other one?

[Calm]

https://cofchrist.org/our-beliefs/
 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/welcome/what-do-latter-day-saints-believe?lang=eng

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I know about the Independence MO one but where is the other one?

Kirtland

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Kirtland

Are you talking about the one that now belongs to us or is there another one?  

[Calm]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Are you talking about the one that now belongs to us or is there another one?  

Yes, they claimed that as their temple and there were quite a few members who were upset with the sale (or so I read in a couple of places).  Now it is legally ours, but I hope the Church maintains it as is (or restores if necessary) and this allows CoC and RLDS members to also feel like it is theirs. 

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

Yes, they claimed that as their temple and there were quite a few members who were upset with the sale (or so I read in a couple of places).  Now it is legally ours, but I hope the Church maintains it as is (or restores if necessary) and this allows CoC and RLDS members to also feel like it is theirs. 

Did they view it as having religious significance or was it an historical attachment?  

 

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

RLDS never had the Priesthood ban for Blacks with African heritage either; the CoC allows women to hold the Priesthood and have female apostles iirc

 

Well...

"When the Community of Christ first began to send missionaries into the South immediately following the Civil War, it planned to carry out an egalitarian racial policy. In 1865 the church agreed to ordain African Americans to the priesthood, on the face a courageous decision that stood up to the ideal. There were at that time, however, no black Reorganization members"

https://launiusr.wordpress.com/2012/10/08/the-reorganized-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saintscommunity-of-christ-and-african-american-members/#:~:text=When the Community,black Reorganization members

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I know about the Independence MO one but where is the other one?

They only have the spiral.

[ZealouslyStriving]

Just now, ZealouslyStriving said:

They only have the spiral.

I should've kept reading.

[Pyreaux]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

RLDS never had the Priesthood ban for Blacks with African heritage either; the CoC allows women to hold the Priesthood and have female apostles iirc

They don't require folk to obey the Word of Wisdom and allow some folk to believe the Book of Mormon to be an inspired fiction, iirc. Very like a Progressive-Liberal version of LDS. Not so much cultural baggage. 

I was far from being thorough, its general public knowledge to let Dirk get their bearings. Like if I said the Civil War was fought over slavery in the south, it si oversimplified, but that is what people know.

[Dirk]

Nothing specific I guess I'm learning just from the responses. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

COJCLDS = 1st Presidency and 12 Apostles (male) ( www.churchofjesuschrist.org )

Community of Christ (formerly RLDS) = 1st Presidency/ 12 Apostles (mix male/female) - Basically a liberal Protestant organization that trots out the Book of Mormon now and then for their older members. About 1/2 the membership left after 1985 and formed independent RLDS Restoration Branches from which others split and formed churches, the Remnant Church (mentioned earlier) being one (but the majority remain in independent Restoration Branches) ( www.communityofchrist.org )  ( www.theremnantchurch.com ) ( www.conferenceofbranches.org ) (www.eldersconference.org )

Church of Christ (Temple Lot) = 12 Apostles (male) - Believe Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet (fans of David Whitmer's work), own the principle New Jerusalem temple plot (never owned Nauvoo Temple land) ( www.churchofchrist1830.org ) 

Church of Jesus Christ (Rigdon/Bickerton) = 12 Apostles w/ 3 of the 12 appointed in Conference as a Presidency (male)- Closest thing to Pentecostals in "Mormon" circles, very Italian, very musically inclined, Alice Cooper grew up in this church. ( www.thechurchofjesuschrist.org )
 

Edited May 23, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[Dirk]

That was helpful, thanks. 

How does the Book of Mormon differ in each organization? Differ in importance? Editions different in terms of formatting and actual text? 

 

 

[Pyreaux]

15 hours ago, Dirk said:

That was helpful, thanks. 

How does the Book of Mormon differ in each organization? Differ in importance? Editions different in terms of formatting and actual text? 

The difference Is in how authoritative. For LDS, the Prophet can trump scripture. Polygamy was allowed under Mosaic Law for Jews, but Jacob trumps Moses in the BoM and forbids it for the Nephites, then Joseph Smith in "restoring all things" trumps the BoM and reinstates it, Brigham Young changes it some and doubles down, [Wilford Woodruff] ends it. Changes seem to cause some splintering of thought.

The BoM has many basic doctrines, but (disputedly) doesn't address the deepest doctrines LDS hold. After starting the Church with just the BoM, Joseph moved on to things like Temple rites and doctrines not in the BoM. A string of disputes that cause the 3 Witnesses at times, who saw the Golden Plates, who saw the angel, some helped translate it, knew Joseph Smith was a Prophet, they were chosen to be Witnesses, signed their lifelong testimonies, but may have overstepped their role, the felt they were defenders of the BoM and its doctrines, even if that meant speaking out against Joseph going against it, who with his misfortunes and persecutions and temple rites not in the BoM, think Joseph might be fallen prophet, or going crazy in Nauvoo. There was this gap between the version of the church as first established into the Kirtland era and the later Nauvoo era. They started their own churches. Like Rigdon returned to the LDS church, but the offshoot he made, the Bickertonites, still exist, and only preach the Bible and BoM. Nothing else. All this to say the distinction is mainly what supersedes the BoM, if anything, and tolerating change in tradition.

Edited May 25, 2024 by Pyreaux

[ZealouslyStriving]

8 hours ago, Dirk said:

That was helpful, thanks. 

How does the Book of Mormon differ in each organization? Differ in importance? Editions different in terms of formatting and actual text? 

 

 

The main differences are chapter and verse divisions:

We, the Fundamentalists (polygamists), the Church of Jesus Christ (Rigdon/Bickertonite), and some smaller churches use the chapter and verse divisions developed by Orson Pratt.

Just about all the rest use the original chapter division and the verse divisions developed by the RLDS.

Our cross-reference and footnotes are much more extensive than the rest.

For all these organizations the Book of Mormon stands side by side with the Bible as holy Scripture - only Community of Christ has demoted it to some lesser place.

Edited May 24, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[manol]

6 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Polygamy was allowed under Mosaic Law...  John Taylor ends it.

Not that this detail is critical to @Dirk's line of inquiry, but I thought it was Wilford Woodruff who ended the practice in the mainstream LDS church?

Edited May 25, 2024 by manol