D&C 5:11-14 - Testimony of the 3 witnesses

[jonah747]

Would someone clarify this section.

"And in addition to your testimony, the testimony of three of my servants, whom I
shall call and ordain, unto whom I will show these things, and they shall go forth
with my words that are given through you.

Yea, they shall know of a surety that these things are true, for from heaven will 
I declare it unto them.

I will give them power that they may behold and view these things as they are;

And to none else will I grant this power, to receive this same testimony among this 
generation, in this the beginning of the rising up and the coming forth of my church 
out of the wilderness-clear as the moon, and fair as the sun, and terrible as an 
army with banners".

What power and testimony did the 3 witnesses have that the other 8 did not?

In verse 14, church is linked to Revelation 12:1-6.

Revelation 12:6 says "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place 
prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore 
days".

What is the meaning of the thousand two hundred and threescore days?  The same thing
is mentioned in Revelation 11:3, about the two witnesses.

Who is feeding the church while she is in the wilderness and how?

[webbles]

43 minutes ago, jonah747 said:

What power and testimony did the 3 witnesses have that the other 8 did not?

They saw an angel.  The other 8 didn't.  The 3 witnesses and 8 witnesses are not testifying of the same thing.  The 8 witnesses only testify that Joseph had the plates.  They can't tell us if Joseph manufactured the plates himself or found them in the ground.  They can't tell us if Joseph translated the plates or made it all up.  The 3 witnesses, though, saw an angel and he (the angel) told them that the plates were translated by Joseph.

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, jonah747 said:

Would someone clarify this section.

"And in addition to your testimony, the testimony of three of my servants, whom I
shall call and ordain, unto whom I will show these things, and they shall go forth
with my words that are given through you.

Yea, they shall know of a surety that these things are true, for from heaven will 
I declare it unto them.

I will give them power that they may behold and view these things as they are;

And to none else will I grant this power, to receive this same testimony among this 
generation, in this the beginning of the rising up and the coming forth of my church 
out of the wilderness-clear as the moon, and fair as the sun, and terrible as an 
army with banners".

What power and testimony did the 3 witnesses have that the other 8 did not?

In verse 14, church is linked to Revelation 12:1-6.

Revelation 12:6 says "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place 
prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore 
days".

What is the meaning of the thousand two hundred and threescore days?  The same thing
is mentioned in Revelation 11:3, about the two witnesses.

Who is feeding the church while she is in the wilderness and how?

The three witnesses not only saw the physical plates, but they also beheld the angel who presented the plates to them; they also saw the ancient breastplate and Urim and Thummim. Finally, the three witnesses were given the sacred honor of hearing the voice of the Lord speak from heaven declaring that the Book of Mormon true.

The woman who fled into the wilderness is the organization of the church of Christ established in the meridian of time in both the Holy Land and ancient America. The church being in the wilderness tells us that after the great apostasy the church organization established by Christ could no longer be found among the nations of the earth, although at least 4 ordained living apostles of the meridian church of Christ were permitted to tarry on earth incognito. The fact that these 4 remaining living apostles were permitted to tarry testifies that although the church of Christ at large was no longer on the earth, Satan had failed in his quest to totally wipe the church of Christ off the face of earth.

Edited February 14, 2024 by teddyaware

[Pyreaux]

2 hours ago, jonah747 said:

What is the meaning of the thousand two hundred and threescore days?  The same thing
is mentioned in Revelation 11:3, about the two witnesses.

Who is feeding the church while she is in the wilderness and how?

Thousaand year apostacy. Verses 6 through 13 can be read as an interlude, interjected into the narrative. There the time delineated meant a period of apostasy and trial, as even a cursory reading will reveal. The phrase is akin to forty-two months, three and a half years, and one thousand two hundred and sixty days. I think Joseph said the days were years.

The time in the wilderness seems to best represent the great apostasy, the era where Satan had power. However, in the Old World, in spite of the apostasy and subjugation of the devil, it may suggest Christianity survived. The scriptures miraculously survived. The buried plates with their precious messages were saved. Some “plain and precious truths” were removed, but many pieces remain. The belief in resurrection, baptism, sacrament, atonement, priesthood, and scripture, though often deemphasized in importance, they continued to exist. The story of Christianity’s survival in Europe is a fascinating tale. God prepared a place for the woman. She was nourished and passed through a thousand years of apostasy, still surviving midst her remnant.

[Kenngo1969]

Others' mileage may vary, but, personally, I think there's something to be said for the two types of (in many ways) vastly different experiences of each group of witnesses: 

In the case of the eight, who were practical men who were used to earning a hard living with their hands, the experience was very matter-of-fact, very tactile, very sensory, with a lot of seeing, and handling,  and hefting going on: "We did handle [them] with our hands."  Perhaps someone who is of a similar, practical bent would be most impressed by this experience.

Conversely, while the three were no less practical, the recounting of their experience focuses much more on the supernatural nature of the experience: "It is marvelous in our eyes."  Perhaps someone who is inclined more readily to accept supernatural experiences would be most inclined to be impressed by this experience.

 

 

 

 

[blackstrap]

I must remind myself that even seeing an angel does not preclude having one's testimony severely challenged .

[Kenngo1969]

11 hours ago, blackstrap said:

I must remind myself that even seeing an angel does not preclude having one's testimony severely challenged .

Ask Laman and Lemuel!

[jonah747]

On 2/14/2024 at 12:14 PM, Pyreaux said:

Thousaand year apostacy. Verses 6 through 13 can be read as an interlude, interjected into the narrative. There the time delineated meant a period of apostasy and trial, as even a cursory reading will reveal. The phrase is akin to forty-two months, three and a half years, and one thousand two hundred and sixty days. I think Joseph said the days were years.

Why did Joseph Smith change it to years instead of days when none of the Greek
manuscripts have it that way?

Why the specific mention of an exact number (1260) if it was not literal?

Is there a start and end date of being in the wilderness in order to to establish a
framework?

[Pyreaux]

8 hours ago, jonah747 said:

Why did Joseph Smith change it to years instead of days when none of the Greek
manuscripts have it that way?

Why the specific mention of an exact number (1260) if it was not literal?

Is there a start and end date of being in the wilderness in order to to establish a
framework?

No one need argue the presence of textual corruption (though the Greek is rather garbled, the original was in the Aramaic), it's an issue of interpreting ancient Apocalyptic literature which is hard for modern readers to understand. We know one of the standard themes in Apocalyptic literature such as Book of Daniel (9:24), almost all commentators agree that the seventy weeks, the days should be understood as years, a period of 490 years, when the Messiah would come. Yet, no Bible only reader today knows when exactly it began or ended (I know as I read the Dead Sea Scroll's Melchizedek texts, 10 Jubilees (49 years) = 70 Weeks (of Years) = 490 years. The Messiah was to appear in the first 7 years of the 10th Jubilee, when Jesus was 30.

Apocalypse vision (Dan. 7:1-14), an explanation (Dan. 7:15-28) a timeline (Dan. 7:25)  1260 days = 1260 years

Apocalypse vision (Dan. 8:1-12 Dan. 8:13-27), an explanation (Dan. 9:20-27) timelines (Dan. 8:14) 2300 days (Dan. 9:24-27) 490 days = 2300 years and 490 years 

Apocalypse vision (Dan. 10:1-12:4), an explanation (Dan. 12:5-13), timelines; (Dan. 12:7) 1260 days (Dan. 12:11) 1290 days (Dan. 12:12) 1335 days = 1260 years and 1290 years and 1335 years

There are differing perspectives on when these years took place.

Edited February 22, 2024 by Pyreaux