A New(?) Idea About 2 Nephi 12-24/Isaiah 2-14

[Kenngo1969]

On 10/12/2023 at 3:32 PM, Calm said:

His early work I understand is good. His more recent  stuff may be going more fringe. I can’t remember where I hear the caution from, if interested, let me know and I will try and track it down. I don’t want to share specifics unless I have something to base it on. 

Don't strain your brain on my account, but if you happen to be able to fit it in among the 5,000 more important things you happen to be doing ...  I wonder, where is the "dividing line," if you will, between "early" and "late"?

Edited October 25, 2023 by Kenngo1969

[The Nehor]

On 10/12/2023 at 7:10 PM, Calm said:

My understanding is that the Isaiah Institute is his baby.  The way this video of theirs starts out may give a clue as to what is problematic.

https://youtu.be/VeW_TnASF_Q?si=oKzpgQ0CmjUF7MFd

Another concern is where he spends much of his time presenting and who produces his videos (I need to double-checked this, but a trustworthy friend who follows these movements informed me about that connection when I ask how long had Gileadi been presenting at Preparing a People conference; it shocked me given the usual quality of presenter) .  
 

As far as I know he hasn’t said what his own beliefs are in regards to the apostate teachings that are being spread around him, but he was a frequent presenter at Preparing A People (now called Hope for Heaven, Latter-day Media is the same company under a new name after the Daybell scandal) and since he is intelligent, he must be aware of how many there were using his teachings as a springboard to not only go looking for the Davidic Servant outside of the Church, but to proclaim themselves one (such as Julie Rowe and Chad Daybell, supposedly some others have hinted at it, but I can’t remember their names).  He has had years to disavow the more extreme beliefs that are using his works as justification for their claims and it hasn’t happened.  He was also a good friend of “Spencer” of Visions of Glory and apparently a fan of the book, which imo is nonsense, racist, elitist, possibly nationalistic (not the good kind), but I may be mixing it up with its knock offs, Rowe’s stuff.

 

After watching that video my response is:

Oh boy….

[tagriffy]

32 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Is there only one "theory of inspiration" in the Book of Mormon?

That's something I'd like to find out.

[Calm]

48 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Don't strain your brain on my account, but if you happen to be able to fit it in among the 5,000 more important things you happen to be doing ...  I wonder, where is the "dividing line," if you will, between "early" and "late"?

I will have to ask for that one.  Remind me if I don’t get back to you (my brain is a sieve these days).

[Kenngo1969]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

I will have to ask for that one.  Remind me if I don’t get back to you (my brain is a sieve these days).

If you happen to remember and to get back to me, that's great.  If not ... Meh! ... Easy come, easy go.  Apart from not really having extensive grounding in Old Testament studies, from not being privy to the skinny on any academic catfights in which Dr. Gileadi may (or may not) have been involved in, along with any implications of them, or to anything regarding Dr. Gileadi's current standing in the Church of Jesus Christ (which is really none of my business), I think [I hope! ] I'm fairly capable of evaluating what he has to say for myself. 

A couple of years ago, I was going to read "one more book" on my mental list for Second Coming studies and call it good.  Then I found out Dan Peterson had written on the subject, and things just kind of snowballed from there.  Now, I've got a book queue that's about 20 books long!   (Oh, well!  The race isn't always to the swift!)

[Dario_M]

On 10/24/2023 at 3:26 PM, tagriffy said:

I have no idea yet. I thought I found the key in 2 Nephi 29, but it turns out I misread the passage. So I'm continuing the reading and making a list.

If you get visioens and revelations you can make another book ! 📖  Another testament. I wish there would come a new testament. There are enough people who recieve revelations and everything. But somehow they don't write a book about it. 

[tagriffy]

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

If you get visioens and revelations you can make another book ! 📖  Another testament. I wish there would come a new testament. There are enough people who recieve revelations and everything. But somehow they don't write a book about it. 

Most of the revelations worth writing about have already been written.

[Dario_M]

18 hours ago, tagriffy said:

Most of the revelations worth writing about have already been written.

I'm not so sure about that. 

[Calm]

On 10/25/2023 at 7:31 AM, Kenngo1969 said:

If you happen to remember and to get back to me, that's great.  If not ... Meh! ... Easy come, easy go.  Apart from not really having extensive grounding in Old Testament studies, from not being privy to the skinny on any academic catfights in which Dr. Gileadi may (or may not) have been involved in, along with any implications of them, or to anything regarding Dr. Gileadi's current standing in the Church of Jesus Christ (which is really none of my business), I think [I hope! ] I'm fairly capable of evaluating what he has to say for myself. 

A couple of years ago, I was going to read "one more book" on my mental list for Second Coming studies and call it good.  Then I found out Dan Peterson had written on the subject, and things just kind of snowballed from there.  Now, I've got a book queue that's about 20 books long!   (Oh, well!  The race isn't always to the swift!)

So I asked what books were useful to read and didn’t contain off the wall material and the general response was since he started out with an incorrect idea and based much of his writing on that, none of his work is “safe”, but if you are interested, then read with awareness of the issues and discernment.

Below is responses from one individual who has been paying closer attention than most.  To be blunt, from what I know (which isn’t much beyond what was shared and now I am sharing) if you have a number of books you want to read and you are always adding to it, I wouldn’t bother with his stuff myself unless it were to read his translation of Isaiah, which is said in the review linked to is quite beautiful.  There are, imo, better books and articles to spend your time on as the core issue with his work is he started from a now disproved idea.  He has built his scholarship in part on a wonky foundation and is standing by it as solid, apparently.  But if you choose to do so, if you read anything that is new to you in them, double-check it with other scholars, especially if he is connecting it to the Davidic Servant theme.

And if he is not providing sources and evidences outside his own interpretations as has been mentioned in some reviews of his books I have read, you might want to red flag that point.

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Even his pre-excommunication stuff was problematic:

 

https://archive.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/avraham-gileadi-book-isaiah-new-translation-interpretive-keys-book-mormon

 

His entire oeuvre has the effect of undermining faith in the prophet and the church by instead hitching one's wagon to the mythical "Davidic Servant" who, I cannot emphasize enough, is totally made up, totally unsupported by scripture and prophetic teaching. It's all based on an incomplete translation of a Joseph Smith sermon that has now been corrected:

 

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/home-page/current-events/the-vallow-daybell-trial/davidic-servant

 

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Gileadi is *THE* pre-eminent promotor of the false Davidic Servant concept. It's all over his website and in his books. Which leads to insane horror like this:

 

https://www.eastidahonews.com/2023/10/doomsday-family-from-arizona-last-seen-in-idaho-with-teen-they-believe-is-chosen-of-god-his-father-is-desperate-for-answers/?fbclid=IwAR2uTmzA5-r6JXdc60Dr4y2uAviRDhYOU-k9meal5kUlS-wyl5cAUBPHNRs

 

Gileadi's website and YouTube channel are hotbeds of crazy. He claims on his website that he not only received the Second Comforter, but a *further* Comforter--a visit from both Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. Which (1) there's literally no scriptural warrant for such an event, and (2) if he really has received it, would anyone with even the slightest particle of spiritual maturity brag about it online??

 

The Davidic Servant doctrine is evil. Yes, I'm using strong language. It's evil. It lures members' hearts away from Church leadership and sets them on influencers who flatter them and teach them things "pleasing to the carnal mind" like "multiple mortal probations" (used to justify adultery) and gnosticism in general (that you're elite, extra-spiritual, not like those slothful normal members).

She gave a presentation at FAIR you may be aware of, it may provide some context to her comments if not.

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/conference/august-2015/a-house-of-order-a-house-of-god

Edited October 27, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

This is an example of how some are reacting to his work…remember his Davidic Servant interpretation was founded on a partial quote of Joseph Smith and the full quote refers to Christ.

From the FAIR article above for those who didn’t read it:

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MISINTERPRETING AN INCOMPLETE QUOTE

A quote from The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (p. 339) is sometimes used to support the claim of a mortal “Davidic servant” to be called outside of regular Church leadership channels: “Although David was a king, he never did obtain the spirit and power of Elijah and the fullness of the Priesthood; and the Priesthood that he received, and the throne and kingdom of David is to be taken from him and given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage.” Considered by itself, that quote seems to support the conclusion that Joseph Smith was prophesying about some future mortal leader. However, thanks to the Joseph Smith Papers Project, it is possible to read the full statement. After saying the above, Joseph immediately continued: “Peter referred to the same subject on the day of Pentecost.”

CHRIST IS THE DAVIDIC SERVANT

Joseph Smith was referring to the Pentecost account in Acts chapters 2 and 3, and more specifically Acts 2:29–31, where Peter declares that David “being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne” (emphasis added). Considered in context, it is clear Joseph Smith was identifying Jesus Christ as the Servant, not a yet-to-be-revealed mortal figure. 

Other arguments for a mortal Servant, based on Old Testament prophecies, have been made for several decades by some fundamentalist members. Many of the scriptures sometimes used to argue for a mortal Davidic Servant, such as Isaiah 61:1-3 and Isaiah 9:6-7, have been near-universally understood to refer to Christ–including by Christ Himself, who in Luke chapter 4 said He was the fulfillment of Isaiah 61. Another scripture commonly cited to support a mortal Servant interpretation is Ezekiel 37:24–25. But this also has an obvious interpretation as referring to Jesus Christ, and no mainstream Biblical scholarship supports the interpretation of a mortal Servant.

AN ILLEGITIMATE CLAIM

To argue that these passages instead refer to a mortal man, or that they refer dually to Christ and also a mortal man, is illegitimate, motivated reasoning instead of careful scholarship. In the past, some might have taken the partial Joseph Smith quote from Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith as an interpretative guide, and read the Old Testament in light of it. But now that we know the entirety of Joseph’s statement, whatever persuasive power the old approach ever held is completely gone.

These and any other arguments for a mortal Servant have never been presented or portrayed as revelations for the Church and do not in any way constitute Church doctrine. No prophet or Church leader has authoritatively stated there will be a mortal Davidic Servant, and leaders who have spoken on the issue have stated the scriptures at issue refer to Jesus Christ.1

 

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I didn't really know what to expect when I purchased this book. I bought it on a whim because the title looked interesting to me.

Little did I know I was getting a key that helped me reconcile a lot of Book of Mormon prophecy I struggled with. The most important thing I learned, and Brother Gileadi supports it with scripture, is that the Marvelous Work and Wonder in the traditional LDS view, is off by 200 or so years. For all the good Joseph Smith did, it mission was largely preparatory and foundational for a later work. This simple piece of information brought Nephi's prophecies into crystal clear focus and served as a witness that the traditional interpretation of the Book of Mormon is incorrect in many ways.

Another hugely important item from this book is the topic of the Davidic Servant. This idea or principle is completely lost on the modern LDS church. I suspect the arrival of the Lord's servant (the "one mighty and strong") will throw the church into turmoil as those brought up to "follow the prophet" will be very confused.

It seems Brother Gileadi may have distanced himself from this book. I don't know why. It's a vital work in understanding the Lord's covenants with the House of Israel, and how we Mormon gentiles fit into the picture.

This is one of the most important books I've ever read and I can't recommend it enough.

Here is a couple of more:

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Through this book I discovered that Isaiah revealed more detailed last-days information for Christians than the book of Revelations does. However the book of Isaiah is 'sealed' using language that can only be 'unsealed' by someone who understands the learning of the ancient Jewish peoples and their manner of teaching through heavy symbolism, word-links and chiastic structures. Avraham has done a remarkable job of unlocking this knowledge for the American reader's mind and explaining every detail of Isaiah to paint a clear and jaw-dropping picture of what awaits us, even in the United States.

There will come a day when you need to be aware of latter-day servants and prophets who are called of God to work upon the earth - as prophesied nearly 3,000 years ago by Isaiah - and I have found no greater warning and description of these characters than in this book. This information is crucial and is only given to those who make a sincere effort to study Isaiah. I am speaking directly to my fellow LDS members who believe they are safe doing no extra study. There is information you need in this book that is vital. Avraham has made the Savior's command to study Isaiah as easy and as plain as word can be. We cannot ignore that commandment and expect to make it. Please seriously consider reading this book or studying Avraham's site. It is well worth the time investment!

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This book makes the overall message of Isaiah very clear. We are just like the pharisaical religions of Christ's time. We have built up massive structures around the plain and simple doctrine of Christ and then think we know better than God.

Because of the wicked traditions of men people were not looking for the simple messiah of Christ. The same will happen when the end time servant comes. People will not notice him because we are looking for a great show of force not a meek humble servant.

We were commanded by Christ directly to read Isaiah for a reason.
3 Nephi 23:1 - "a commandment I give unto you that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah."

 

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Calm

[Kenngo1969]

I actually read Sister Hedelius's essay a few months ago.  Thanks for the heads-up.

[mfbukowski]

When The Christ is within you, you can do all things

Personal revelation becomes your reality.

Gotta get that sittar outa my garage. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

Ken and others…

Gileadi’s Isaiah Institute is at least admitting there is an issue with the Davidic Servant interpretation 

https://isaiahinstitute.com/official-statements/

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Official Statement

October 27, 2023

The Isaiah Institute has consistently maintained that we neither endorse nor encourage individuals to identify as the Davidic Servant. Nor do we validate any claims regarding knowledge of his identity. While it isn’t uncommon to be approached by individuals who assert that they are the Servant, we have refuted all such claims.

The Isaiah Institute’s teachings about the Davidic Servant are firmly anchored in the words of scripture and not on dreams or personal interpretations. We hold the conviction that the emergence of the Davidic Servant will align with historical and scriptural patterns as established by God and will occur in the Lord’s own due time.

We at all times encourage people to search the scriptures for themselves as commanded by the Savior and to avoid deception in this prophesied age of deception. We emphatically caution everyone against engaging with groups or with individuals who profess to be the Davidic Servant or who claim knowledge of his identity.

I wonder if Gileadi will continue to speak at events

Edited October 28, 2023 by Calm