Encouraging Apostasy?

[mfbukowski]

@Navidad

That's fine.

You did not mention "culture" at all, but clearly the boundaries of your definitions are not distinct.

As I see it, I would not have replied to a post saying that there were four distinct definitions, and that implies that there were flaws in his religious beliefs when I could not back it up with clear definitions, but it is a trivial point.  To me it just reveals more about your apparent drift away from being in MY category of "investigator" toward "critic" of our church.

And that has nothing to do with friendship. I have many friends who are also critics

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

On 5/20/2022 at 9:39 AM, jkwilliams said:

I’m wondering if, from the believing perspective, it’s better to stay out of it and let people make their own decisions. I think it probably is.

Dang it!

We actually agree!

[Navidad]

30 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

@Navidad

That's fine.

You did not mention "culture" at all, but clearly the boundaries of your definitions are not distinct.

As I see it, I would not have replied to a post saying that there were four distinct definitions, and that implies that there were flaws in his religious beliefs when I could not back it up with clear definitions, but it is a trivial point.  To me it just reveals more about your apparent drift away from being in MY category of "investigator" toward "critic" of our church.

And that has nothing to do with friendship. I have many friends who are also critics

 

Amigo - I mentioned my culture as Evangelical. Check it out again. Thanks.

[Navidad]

32 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

@Navidad

That's fine.

You did not mention "culture" at all, but clearly the boundaries of your definitions are not distinct.

As I see it, I would not have replied to a post saying that there were four distinct definitions, and that implies that there were flaws in his religious beliefs when I could not back it up with clear definitions, but it is a trivial point.  To me it just reveals more about your apparent drift away from being in MY category of "investigator" toward "critic" of our church.

And that has nothing to do with friendship. I have many friends who are also critics

 

Perhaps I can clarify. I was in no way (none, not any, nada) implying that there were flaws in his religious beliefs. In fact I think I commended him for the strength of his reply, espcially in the sense of helping me understand the loss when someone leaves the LDS church.

My definitions are not clear enough for you. Fine, they are sufficiently clear to me given my experiences and life. I have no idea how you interpreted what I said in either my reply to you or him to be critical of the LDS church. For example, pointing out the lack of ministry opportunities for the non-member is not being critical. It is merely different from my previous experience. I think I have been consistent over five years here that I am not an investigator in a "traditional LDS sense of the term" and never have been. What I am most interested in is how the history, doctrine, and revelation in the LDS church overlap. It is so similar to how that works in the Mennonite church. I find it very interesting. Best to you.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Amigo - I mentioned my culture as Evangelical. Check it out again. Thanks.

But your point was that culture is distinct from religion.

I wasn't going to go there.  It didn't matter, none of the categories were distinctly defined imo.

It's not worth debating, amigo.

Yes eternal marriage can be confusing when we try to define things we cannot define clearly, but as you point out, reality IS our individual experiences.

Eternal marriage is a GOAL, not a "to do" list.

We can't define all the details of eternal marriage any more than you can define you 4 categories.

It's what we experience, that is not definable in words. It is reality that cannot "correspond" to symbolic squiggles on a page.

See Rorty quote below, in my siggy 

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

For example, pointing out the lack of ministry opportunities for the non-member is not being critical. It is merely different from my previous experience. I think I have been consistent over five years here that I am not an investigator in a "traditional LDS sense of the term" and never have been.

You cannot be a minister without having a testimony!  You are an investigator as long as you keep investigating! You either get into the water or not.

If you did, THEN you would give up investigating and take on commitments to the covenant path.

[Calm]

47 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

But your point was that culture is distinct from religion.

But there is a general (and usually local) culture that has been created by practitioners of a religion, whether Evangelical or Saint.

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

But there is a general (and usually local) culture that has been created by practitioners of a religion, whether Evangelical or Saint.

I think culture and the practice of religion are often very closely tied together for many folks, especially when we overlap the two in our day to day lives.

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

You cannot be a minister without having a testimony!  You are an investigator as long as you keep investigating! You either get into the water or not.

If you did, THEN you would give up investigating and take on commitments to the covenant path.

I have an extremely personal and personally strong testimony of my faith. I would also suggest that many people who have no religious testimony at all are fully capable of and do minister to others in very significant, kind, and meaningful ways.

I have already been in the water. I was baptized by immersion by my father at 7 years of age!

I will never ever give up investigating anything. That would be the death or at least the petrification or the putrification of me. Let me assure you, my commitments to the covenant path began back in my childhood. I have done my best (while failing) to be consistent to them ever since. I understand that the details and specifics of my covenant path may not be exactly the same as you have trod, but I would bet a bunch of nickels that my commitments to that path are not very dissimilar from your own. I understand that in Nehi's dream, the path is a critical component, but so is the iron rod. For me the iron rod is the atonement of Christ, not the specifics of the LDS faith.

In I Cor 15: 58 we are encouraged to be steadfast. Paul uses that word (hedraioi) which is translated "steadfast" on several occasions to indicate the kind of life he would like his beloved brothers to follow. The word hedraioi comes from the Greek word to sit or a seat. To be steadfast is to be well-seated in ones faith. I believe you to be well-seated in your faith; I would hope that someday you would grant me the same. Blessings!

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

But there is a general (and usually local) culture that has been created by practitioners of a religion, whether Evangelical or Saint.

Yes. 

[MiserereNobis]

6 hours ago, Navidad said:

Being able to minister in the particular church context is very important to us. The only local church that has limited our ministry potential is the LDS church.

Do you mind defining "ministry potential"? The way I would understand that term, the Catholic Church would also limit your ministry potential. For example, you cannot assist at Mass if you are not Catholic.

In what ways does the LDS church restrict your ministry potential more than the Catholic Church?

Also, I'm interested in your thoughts on communion. Does it bother you that Catholicism has a closed communion and that non-Catholic Christians, such as yourself, are not able to receive?

+PAX+

Jesse

Edited May 28, 2022 by MiserereNobis

[mfbukowski]

 

5 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I have an extremely personal and personally strong testimony of my faith. I would also suggest that many people who have no religious testimony at all are fully capable of and do minister to others in very significant, kind, and meaningful ways.

I have already been in the water. I was baptized by immersion by my father at 7 years of age!

I will never ever give up investigating anything. That would be the death or at least the petrification or the putrification of me. Let me assure you, my commitments to the covenant path began back in my childhood. I have done my best (while failing) to be consistent to them ever since. I understand that the details and specifics of my covenant path may not be exactly the same as you have trod, but I would bet a bunch of nickels that my commitments to that path are not very dissimilar from your own. I understand that in Nehi's dream, the path is a critical component, but so is the iron rod. For me the iron rod is the atonement of Christ, not the specifics of the LDS faith.

In I Cor 15: 58 we are encouraged to be steadfast. Paul uses that word (hedraioi) which is translated "steadfast" on several occasions to indicate the kind of life he would like his beloved brothers to follow. The word hedraioi comes from the Greek word to sit or a seat. To be steadfast is to be well-seated in ones faith. I believe you to be well-seated in your faith; I would hope that someday you would grant me the same. Blessings!

Ok, I think I see what is separating us on this question.

You see your religious commitment to "Christianity" which to my knowledge requires you to accept Christ as your savior, which makes you "saved".  That is a wonderful insight and certainly I believe that the principle is true as you experience it and believe it, and I agree fully and accept what I think you mean as "Salvation", and I hope to be among those Christans with you.

BUT by being baptized I have made a COVENANT with God, a COMMITMENT to ALSO honor the beliefs and practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Two different things.

1. Christian Baptism

2. Commitment to accept Joseph Smith and other prophets, who have given us additional ordinances, commandments and beliefs, we call the "Covenant Path"

Unless you also accept this particular commitment as well, you will remain an "investigator" who has not accepted- the covenant path.

You are a wonderful scholar of history and Christianity, but have not "accepted Joseph Smith as a prophet", and the path of Covenants he has given us, and we accept them as if they came directly from God.

Until you accept these covenants, you will not be a "member" but remain a scholarly Christian observer.  How can you teach about Joseph's prophethood if you don't believe it?

Baptismal interview:

"Do you believe that God is our Eternal Father? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Savior and Redeemer of the world?

Do you believe that the Church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Do you believe that [current Church President] is a prophet of God? What does this mean to you?

What does it mean to you to repent? Do you feel that you have repented of your past transgressions?

Have you ever committed a serious crime? If so, are you now on probation or parole? Have you ever participated in an abortion? Have you ever committed a homosexual transgression?

You have been taught that membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints includes living gospel standards. What do you understand about the following standards? Are you willing to obey them?

The law of chastity, which prohibits any sexual relationship outside the bonds of a legal marriage between one man and one woman.

The law of tithing.

The Word of Wisdom.

The Sabbath day, including partaking of the sacrament weekly and rendering service to others.

When you are baptized, you covenant with God that you are willing to take upon yourself the name of Christ and keep His commandments throughout your life. Are you ready to make this covenant and strive to be faithful to it?"

[MiserereNobis]

35 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

BUT by being baptized I have made a COVENANT with God, a COMMITMENT to ALSO honor the beliefs and practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Two different things.

1. Christian Baptism

2. Commitment to accept Joseph Smith and other prophets, who have given us additional ordinances, commandments and beliefs, we call the "Covenant Path"

I think this way of describing LDS baptism bolsters the reasons why the Catholic Church does not accept LDS baptism as valid. 

[mfbukowski]

18 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I think this way of describing LDS baptism bolsters the reasons why the Catholic Church does not accept LDS baptism as valid. 

Could be, good point!

It includes a commitment to live the LDS lifestyle, so that makes sense.

Excellent point!

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I think this way of describing LDS baptism bolsters the reasons why the Catholic Church does not accept LDS baptism as valid. 

We are more like Islam than I figured.

"There is no God but the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and Joseph Smith is their prophet."  🤔

And the Bible prophets and the BOM prophets, and the prophets in this dispensation, and the prophets not yet called, and....

Hmmm.

Maybe the comparison doesn't work that well...

And then we have Zoroaster who I am totally convinced was the leader of a dispensation.

I wanted to name a kid Zarathustra but my wife objected..... just because she was a girl I guess... 

Dang sexism!

🤥

 

 

Edited May 29, 2022 by mfbukowski

[MiserereNobis]

22 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I wanted to name a kid Zarathustra

Thus spake!

[Calm]

31 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

wanted to name a kid Zarathustra but my wife objected..... just because she was a girl I guess... 

Dang sexism!

 

Zarah means radiance. Great name for a girl. Just leave out a few letters. 
 

Zafirah means victorious.

Zara and other variations can mean flower or princess as well. 
 

Zartasha:  one who is made up of golden stars

Edited May 29, 2022 by Calm

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Do you mind defining "ministry potential"? The way I would understand that term, the Catholic Church would also limit your ministry potential. For example, you cannot assist at Mass if you are not Catholic.

In what ways does the LDS church restrict your ministry potential more than the Catholic Church?

Also, I'm interested in your thoughts on communion. Does it bother you that Catholicism has a closed communion and that non-Catholic Christians, such as yourself, are not able to receive?

+PAX+

Jesse

Hello my friend. . . . Let's see . . . I have no idea how the Catholic church would limit my ministry, so I cannot compare the two. I have a very close relationship with our parish priest. I have often helped in a variety of ways in our local Catholic Church.  Ministry potential, in my mind has nothing to do with assisting with the Sacrament or any other ordinance. Those are specific administrative priesthood functions in almost all Christian groups. It bothers me not at all that Catholicism or certain other groups have closed communion.  I would prefer that a church have closed communion, rather than have leaders say a non-member can take it, but when they do that they do so, they are simply pretending. 

I believe ministry potential has to do with the exercise of those gifts given by the Holy Spirit such as teaching, helping, counseling, etc. that are given to help build up a church. The vast majority of "ministry" callings in the LDS church are limited to members. That is simply the way it is. I am not being a critic of the church in pointing that out. It is simply something new for me given my varied ministry background in different, especially non-denominational church settings. Ministry is not only officiating. It is the use of one's spiritual gifts for the good of, and building up of the whole body.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

To be steadfast is to be well-seated in ones faith. I believe you to be well-seated in your faith; I would hope that someday you would grant me the same. Blessings!

Of course you are well seated in your faith unless everything you post is a lie.

I mean we have never met.

Why would you think that I think you are not well seated in your faith?

I really am not quite sure what that means!

Maybe  " committed" ?

I see no evidence that you are not committed to your Mennonite faith

[mfbukowski]

7 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Thus spake!

Nein!  Also Sprach !!

 

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

 

Ok, I think I see what is separating us on this question.

You see your religious commitment to "Christianity" which to my knowledge requires you to accept Christ as your savior, which makes you "saved".  That is a wonderful insight and certainly I believe that the principle is true as you experience it and believe it, and I agree fully and accept what I think you mean as "Salvation", and I hope to be among those Christans with you.

BUT by being baptized I have made a COVENANT with God, a COMMITMENT to ALSO honor the beliefs and practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Two different things.

1. Christian Baptism

2. Commitment to accept Joseph Smith and other prophets, who have given us additional ordinances, commandments and beliefs, we call the "Covenant Path"

Unless you also accept this particular commitment as well, you will remain an "investigator" who has not accepted- the covenant path.

You are a wonderful scholar of history and Christianity, but have not "accepted Joseph Smith as a prophet", and the path of Covenants he has given us, and we accept them as if they came directly from God.

Until you accept these covenants, you will not be a "member" but remain a scholarly Christian observer.  How can you teach about Joseph's prophethood if you don't believe it?

Baptismal interview:

"Do you believe that God is our Eternal Father? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Savior and Redeemer of the world?

Do you believe that the Church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Do you believe that [current Church President] is a prophet of God? What does this mean to you?

What does it mean to you to repent? Do you feel that you have repented of your past transgressions?

Have you ever committed a serious crime? If so, are you now on probation or parole? Have you ever participated in an abortion? Have you ever committed a homosexual transgression?

You have been taught that membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints includes living gospel standards. What do you understand about the following standards? Are you willing to obey them?

The law of chastity, which prohibits any sexual relationship outside the bonds of a legal marriage between one man and one woman.

The law of tithing.

The Word of Wisdom.

The Sabbath day, including partaking of the sacrament weekly and rendering service to others.

When you are baptized, you covenant with God that you are willing to take upon yourself the name of Christ and keep His commandments throughout your life. Are you ready to make this covenant and strive to be faithful to it?"

Hey, nine out of ten isn't bad is it? Where we differ is that I do not believe the Covenant Path to salvation and subsequent spiritual growth leads only through the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I also have no conviction that I need to be baptized again in order to start on a Covenant Path that I have already been on for 65 years or so.

My religious commitment is indeed to Christ and His atonement. I have no religious commitment to any other human of which I am aware - not Joseph Smith, Menno Simons, Paul, Billy Graham, or any other human leader.

I would also suggest that "being saved" is not the end game. It is equally as important to me that I commit to the covenant path of sanctification, where I continually covenant to grow in grace, wisdom, and truth. I have grown in each of those in my time in the LDS church as I have in every other church in which I have fellowshipped and worshiped. I value and appreciate that very much. I think you think of me as a spectator in the LDS church. I wish I could dissuade you of that, but I probably can't. I look forward to going to services tomorrow morning!

I have grown spiritually in the last five years from a variety of Godly influences in the LDS church. First and foremost was our bishop. Secondly was Reid Neilson. Third is Patrick Mason. I could give you the same kind of list from individuals in other groups with whom we have worshiped as well.

Not too long ago our wonderful Godly stake patriarch was talking with me after Elder's Quorum. He wanted to tell me about his time with a Mennonite group the previous week. He told me how much he had grown spiritually during the time he spent with them and how much he appreciated their commitment to Christ. We had a wonderful conversation. I could echo everything he said because of my time with LDS folks. Nine out of ten really isn't too bad, is it?

Edited May 29, 2022 by Navidad

[mfbukowski]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

Zarah means radiance

Yes, the followers compare God's glory to the Sun. Sound familiar?

And in Nietzsche's book, :

"Nietzsche was one of the most revolutionary and subversive thinkers in Western philosophy, and Thus Spoke Zarathustra remains his most famous and influential work. It describes how the ancient Persian prophet Zarathustra descends from his solitude in the mountains to tell the world that [the god they worship- mfb] is dead and that the Superman, the human embodiment of divinity, is his successor. Nietzsche's utterance 'God is dead', his insistence that the meaning of life is to be found in purely human terms..."

Gee! God is a super human being? And everyone got that wrong?

What a strange idea! 

🤓

 

 

[Navidad]

24 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Of course you are well seated in your faith unless everything you post is a lie.

I mean we have never met.

Why would you think that I think you are not well seated in your faith?

I really am not quite sure what that means!

Maybe  " committed" ?

I see no evidence that you are not committed to your Mennonite faith

Sorry, I probably didn't say that well. Perhaps I should have said that someday I hope you will see my faith as something worthy of being well-seated in. Does that make more sense?

[mfbukowski]

Just now, Navidad said:

I also have no conviction that I need to be baptized again in order to start on a Covenant Path that I have already been on for 65 years or so.

Really! When were you endowed and sealed?

I don't think you are getting the point, and yet complaining you can't minister in beliefs you do not have.

Sorry this is worse than I thought, you are not getting it that we make Covenants that you don't make.

You said earlier that you don't even want to be married forever unless I am wrong. 

How could you give marital advice to folks who want that more than anything and cannot image anything more wonderful???

 

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Sorry, I probably didn't say that well. Perhaps I should have said that someday I hope you will see my faith as something worthy of being well-seated in. Does that make more sense?

No. Why do you think I think you are not committed to your faith?

But I already asked that!