Why should someone join the church?

[JLHPROF]

On 8/24/2021 at 4:08 PM, Logan said:

No, it doesn't really answer my question. Do you believe other churches have legitimate authority from God or is this exclusive to the LDS church?

No, they don't.  Priesthood authority was restored through Joseph Smith.  There isn't any God-given authority elsewhere.

Edited August 26, 2021 by JLHPROF

[Logan]

6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Again you are deeply confused about the difference between scholarship and the Spirit, just as you are confused about the difference between theology and religion.  These are very different subjects, and very different approaches.  I have no degree in religion, and when I was young like you I was also ignorant of the difference between academia and faith.  However, I was humble enough to learn the fundamental lessons -- which can be a long, hard road.  No one needs to be a scholar.  God certainly doesn't care what you do with your life as long as your pursuits are honest.  A man of faith need not be a scholar, and scholarship doesn't actually pay all that well.  However, pretending to be a scholar is not being true to yourself, and that can only lead to disappointment.  The prophets are not theologians, and need not be.  That is not their calling.

It's okay that you and I disagree on the definition of theology. There's no need to talk down to me or insult me. Go in peace. 

[Logan]

1 hour ago, Fred said:

Living prophets.  And other people who believe in living prophets... men who receive personal revelation from God, himself, which can be considered equal in importance to scripture from other prophets.  That is one of my favorite things the Church has.

I think most members would agree with you. 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Logan said:

It's okay that you and I disagree on the definition of theology. There's no need to talk down to me or insult me. Go in peace. 

I have been frank and honest with you, Logan.  The mark of an adult is the willingness to take criticism and learn from it.  To be teachable.  Others will tell you what you want to hear, but that is not to your advantage.  A lesson you need to learn early and well.

[Logan]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I have been frank and honest with you, Logan.  The mark of an adult is the willingness to take criticism and learn from it.  To be teachable.  Others will tell you what you want to hear, but that is not to your advantage.  A lesson you need to learn early and well.

Oh Robert, you don't even know my age or what I do or don't know. You assume because I don’t see things the way you do that I must be some naive young man who is beneath you. Your assumptions and ignorant insults are just making you look foolish now. 

For your own sake, please give it a rest. 

[poptart]

On 8/25/2021 at 1:27 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

Thank you for that brilliant and insightful summation, poptart.  What seems so astonishing now, in light of all that, Austria will likely be a Muslim nation by end of century.  The demographics make that inevitable, as pointed out by Douglas Murray, The Strange Death of Europe.

I doubt it for a few reasons.  For one, the Catholic Church is huge in Austria for similar reasons they are elsewhere in Europe.  They employ people, run schools, hospitals, nursing facilties and what not.  While thier church tax isn't as high as Germanys, they still have it.  Also, it's a cultural institution.  Even my heretical self will likely have a Christian funeral when it's time to die, besides it being too good a deal to pass up, it is a part of me.   

Don't forget things are different over there.  In this country people often times lie about religious affiliation, it's easy to do.  How many self professed Christians have been Baptised?  Confirmed? Etc.  Was it a proper baptism?  In this country they often times mess it up and fails cannon law.  It's the same thing (sort of) with you guys, if you want to be an LDS member you get the missionary discussions, baptism and if they are worthy endowments.  This is one reason why Evangelicals were so popular and are losing people so fast, there is hardly any commitment.  

In a lot of Europe, many are still baptised, confirmed, married and have funeral rites.  In this country religion is more so about political affiliation, over there it's cultural and for the devout helping the poor.  I really don't see that here as much, at least I haven't.  That's just me.

Religion in Germany | The German Way & More (german-way.com)

Religion in Germany - Wikipedia

The complete guide to confirmation in Denmark - The Local

As far as Islam goes, I always chuckle when I hear people complain about it, it's almost always racist.  I have Muslim friends, they've treated me far, far kinder than most white Christians i've known here ever did.  I heard one complain about an Islamic centers growth.  When I asked why don't the local Christian churches help their own like the Muslims do?  Almost instantly the i've got mine response came out of his mouth.  When Hurricane Harvey happened, Muslim charities were among the first to open their doors while good ole Joel Olsteen had to be shamed to do the same.  I know a lot of Christians here stateside love to ignore the poor yet cry fowl when people vote against their best interests, the entitlement of the Christian right here has always been something that made me want to vomit.  I remember this and think what would Jesus do?  In their case, more like what would privileged, WASP Jesus do.  

Hurricane Harvey: Mosques open doors to victims of devastating flooding in Houston | The Independent | The Independent

‘Helping is a total no-brainer.’ Houston-area mosques open their doors as shelters - The Washington Post

Joel Osteen Defends Not Opening Lakewood Church in Houston to Harvey Victims (nbcnews.com)

Personally, It's not so much Europe not becoming Christian I think a lot about (I doubt it will ever happen) it's how Christian affiliation here is in freefall.  You have a lot of people like me who were shunned for being poor and in the case of some former Catholic friends shunned because their parents divorced.  We outnumber and outvote you.  Churches no longer do the charity they did nor are as community oriented as they once were, they'd rather play politics and make an ever growing anti-religious millenial populace hate them to the point of rioting.  Meanwhile the Muslim immigrants we get here work hard, contribute to their communities and like the E.Asian population pull their resources so their kids can go on to be doctors, scientists etc.  I'd say the privileged, kinda racist Islamophobes here should take a good look in the mirror before freaking out about Muslims.  If they went back to the "Christian roots" they say the country was founded on you'd see Christianity make a huge rebound.  Of course that would involve helping the poor, contributing to their communities, doing something about the homeless youth plus all the other things that made Christianity stand out among the world religions, it's love and care for the poor.  I doubt that's going to happen here.  Way I see it, "Christians" here kind of deserve what's happening to them.  I think anyway.

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

-Galatians 6:7

But if any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith and is worse than an infidel.

-1 Timothy 5:8

Just for giggles.  God bless Pope Francis.

Pope Francis at the general audience: ‘Hypocrisy in the Church is particularly detestable’ (catholicnewsagency.com)

Edited August 27, 2021 by poptart

[Robert F. Smith]

49 minutes ago, poptart said:

I doubt it for a few reasons.  For one, the Catholic Church is huge in Austria for similar reasons they are elsewhere in Europe.  They employ people, run schools, hospitals, nursing facilties and what not.  While thier church tax isn't as high as Germanys, they still have it.  Also, it's a cultural institution.  Even my heretical self will likely have a Christian funeral when it's time to die, besides it being too good a deal to pass up, it is a part of me.   

Don't forget things are different over there.  In this country people often times lie about religious affiliation, it's easy to do.  How many self professed Christians have been Baptised?  Confirmed? Etc.  Was it a proper baptism?  In this country they often times mess it up and fails cannon law.  It's the same thing (sort of) with you guys, if you want to be an LDS member you get the missionary discussions, baptism and if they are worthy endowments.  This is one reason why Evangelicals were so popular and are losing people so fast, there is hardly any commitment.  

In a lot of Europe, many are still baptised, confirmed, married and have funeral rites.  In this country religion is more so about political affiliation, over there it's cultural and for the devout helping the poor.  I really don't see that here as much, at least I haven't.  That's just me.

...............................

All that may be true, but it is irrelevant to the demographic shift which will overwhelm all of Europe:  The birthrate is key.  At current rates, most students in elementary and secondary schools in Austria will be Muslim by 2050.  By 2100 the non-Muslim population will be quire small.  The history of  humankind is one of vast demographic shifts over time.  It is quite possible that it will be a secular Muslim population, but we do not know that yet.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Logan said:

Oh Robert, you don't even know my age or what I do or don't know. You assume because I don’t see things the way you do that I must be some naive young man who is beneath you. Your assumptions and ignorant insults are just making you look foolish now. 

For your own sake, please give it a rest. 

Perhaps you are right, Logan.  However, to check that possibility, you have only to inquire among others in that field.  By all means, do not take my word for it.  I may be a complete idiot for all you know.  I was once just as naive as you.  Perhaps I am still naive.

[Logan]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Perhaps you are right, Logan.  However, to check that possibility, you have only to inquire among others in that field.  By all means, do not take my word for it.  I may be a complete idiot for all you know.  I was once just as naive as you.  Perhaps I am still naive.

Robert, it's not a matter of naivety. I wasn't referring to the academic field of theology. I couldn't care less about that field. You only associate the term theology with the academic field, bit there is also a broader definition, which is what I was referring to. 

Let's just let it go. This is a silly argument. 

 

[Robert F. Smith]

4 minutes ago, Logan said:

Robert, it's not a matter of naivety. I wasn't referring to the academic field of theology. I couldn't care less about that field. You only associate the term theology with the academic field, bit there is also a broader definition, which is what I was referring to. 

Let's just let it go. This is a silly argument.

Listen carefully at October Conference, Logan.  See if the Brethren use the world "theology."  Your broader definition doesn't exist, except as an example of misuse.

[Logan]

37 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Listen carefully at October Conference, Logan.  See if the Brethren use the world "theology."  Your broader definition doesn't exist, except as an example of misuse.

No, it's not an example of misuse. Go read how any dictionary defines theology and you will see that it doesn't exclusively refer to the academic field. In fact, the primary definition, which I already shared with you does not refer to the academic field. It means studying about God and religion. 

There is also happens to be a field in which one can earn a degree studying about God and religion, which is called a 'theological degree."

In a similar manner you can also get a degree in art, but that doesn't mean that the terms art and artist only refer to the academic field. 

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

All that may be true, but it is irrelevant to the demographic shift which will overwhelm all of Europe:  The birthrate is key.  At current rates, most students in elementary and secondary schools in Austria will be Muslim by 2050.  By 2100 the non-Muslim population will be quire small.  The history of  humankind is one of vast demographic shifts over time.  It is quite possible that it will be a secular Muslim population, but we do not know that yet.

As I have been reminded over and over again “demographics are not destiny”.

The idea that trends are inevitable seems logical and right but things change. Maybe there will be some event or personality that causes mass conversions one way or the other. Maybe there will be a revanchist movement for Muslims to move closer to ancestral homes. Maybe there will be war. Maybe intermarriage will become so common that the ethnic divide will become irrelevant. Maybe we will develop methods of adjusting the human body’s melanin production so everyone can choose their skin color.

And quite bluntly the endless worry about Muslims becoming a majority is deeply rooted in xenophobia and comes from xenophobic sources who are trying to come up with ways to stymie this ‘inevitablility’ through immigration restrictions and the like. There is always some secret plot by the Muslims on how they will take over as if they are a colossal united hive mind. It is “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” all over again.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

As I have been reminded over and over again “demographics are not destiny”.

The idea that trends are inevitable seems logical and right but things change. Maybe there will be some event or personality that causes mass conversions one way or the other. Maybe there will be a revanchist movement for Muslims to move closer to ancestral homes. Maybe there will be war. Maybe intermarriage will become so common that the ethnic divide will become irrelevant. Maybe we will develop methods of adjusting the human body’s melanin production so everyone can choose their skin color.

And quite bluntly the endless worry about Muslims becoming a majority is deeply rooted in xenophobia and comes from xenophobic sources who are trying to come up with ways to stymie this ‘inevitablility’ through immigration restrictions and the like. There is always some secret plot by the Muslims on how they will take over as if they are a colossal united hive mind. It is “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” all over again.

The racist trope has nothing to do with actual statistical likelihood, and it passes no judgment on whether such shifts are good or bad.  You are implying value-judgments instead of facing Realpolitik.  The vast Indo-European shift from the steppes into Europe spelled the end of the hunter-gatherer culture already present, and the DNA shift was powerful.  That is a fact of history, or pre-history.  More recently, the Angles and Saxons displacing the Celts in England, followed by the Viking invasions, followed by William the Conqueror in 1066 have all brought significant changes.  That is not prescriptive, but descriptive.  There is a difference, and we need to face such changes realistically, instead of spouting woke nonsense.

Aside from the demographic changes now in process, we also face huge environmental threats worldwide which practically guarantee millions of deaths -- global warming.  The world will become quite unstable as populations become desperate for water, food, and cool conditions, and will be unable to find adequate supplies.

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, Logan said:

No, it's not an example of misuse. Go read how any dictionary defines theology and you will see that it doesn't exclusively refer to the academic field. In fact, the primary definition, which I already shared with you does not refer to the academic field. It means studying about God and religion. 

There is also happens to be a field in which one can earn a degree studying about God and religion, which is called a 'theological degree."

In a similar manner you can also get a degree in art, but that doesn't mean that the terms art and artist only refer to the academic field. 

I also cited reliable dictionary definitions, which you promptly ignored.  The term "art" is indeed an everyday word, while "theology" is not.  You are simply misusing language.

[Logan]

28 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I also cited reliable dictionary definitions, which you promptly ignored.  The term "art" is indeed an everyday word, while "theology" is not.  You are simply misusing language.

Whatever you say Robert. 

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The racist trope has nothing to do with actual statistical likelihood, and it passes no judgment on whether such shifts are good or bad.  You are implying value-judgments instead of facing Realpolitik.  The vast Indo-European shift from the steppes into Europe spelled the end of the hunter-gatherer culture already present, and the DNA shift was powerful.  That is a fact of history, or pre-history.  More recently, the Angles and Saxons displacing the Celts in England, followed by the Viking invasions, followed by William the Conqueror in 1066 have all brought significant changes.  That is not prescriptive, but descriptive.  There is a difference, and we need to face such changes realistically, instead of spouting woke nonsense.

Aside from the demographic changes now in process, we also face huge environmental threats worldwide which practically guarantee millions of deaths -- global warming.  The world will become quite unstable as populations become desperate for water, food, and cool conditions, and will be unable to find adequate supplies.

Realpolitik? That implies that there is a practical course of action unmoored from ideology or morals. I am afraid to ask what it is. Realistically? What does that mean? What realistic steps should be taken? What woke nonsense?

Also, it annoys me that.the term “woke” has been watered down by charlatans to be a meaningless insult bandied about by sub-literate morons. The term had a history going back to the 1930s but now it is just a generic insult like socialism or communism and it is almost never used correctly.