Are Mormons' Christians?

[Guest johnny_cat]

For instance, since you keep avoiding the questions, let me ask again, doesn't the Mormon God need a Father and a Mother? Does not the Mormon God need a wife? Does not the Mormon God need a physical environment in which to live? Does not the Mormon God need to obey certain laws that led to his becoming God, and most certainly sustains him? Does not the Mormon God need to have children, given that that is what Mormons believe that his father did? Did not the Mormon God need to procreate, naturally, with Mary to conceive Jesus? Does not the Mormon God need to wait for a response from his children before he saves them? Does not the Mormon God need to save his children, when they decide to be saved?

I haven't avoided the question. As I said, God's being God is not contingent on anything. If all those things you just asked were true, then the premortal Jehovah could not be considered God, and neither could the Holy Ghost. So, we are left to understand that your series of qualifications clearly and unequivocally does not apply to the God we worship.

[PD1]

Acts 17:24-25 [KJV]

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men

[PD1]

This is the age old question PD1. Im reminded of its rendition on Sesame street:

Which came first... the chicken or the egg.

Not a single theologian, bible scholar, has ever been able to answer this.

What question are you referring to?

[Zakuska]

It came from here:

And given what the LDS have said thus far, including Joseph Smith's comments about God not always existing as God, but that he became God, is it not fair to conclude that the LDS God, indeed, needs a whole lot of assistance to be what he is?

For instance, since you keep avoiding the questions, let me ask again, doesn't the Mormon God need a Father and a Mother? Does not the Mormon God need a wife?

There is a big difference in What God is and what God does.

[PD1]

For instance, since you keep avoiding the questions, let me ask again, doesn't the Mormon God need a Father and a Mother? Does not the Mormon God need a wife? Does not the Mormon God need a physical environment in which to live? Does not the Mormon God need to obey certain laws that led to his becoming God, and most certainly sustains him? Does not the Mormon God need to have children, given that that is what Mormons believe that his father did? Did not the Mormon God need to procreate, naturally, with Mary to conceive Jesus? Does not the Mormon God need to wait for a response from his children before he saves them? Does not the Mormon God need to save his children, when they decide to be saved?

I haven't avoided the question. As I said, God's being God is not contingent on anything. If all those things you just asked were true, then the premortal Jehovah could not be considered God, and neither could the Holy Ghost. So, we are left to understand that your series of qualifications clearly and unequivocally does not apply to the God we worship.

So, let me understand you correctly. God does not need a Father or Mother. God does not need a wife. God does not need a physical environment to live in. God does not need to obey certain laws leading to his becoming God, nor does he need to obey them subsequently. God does not need to have children, and in fact, was not a child himself. God did not need to procreate with Mary, however that was done, in order to conceive Jesus. God does not need to wait for his children to decide to be saved, he just saves them anyway. And, God does not need to respond to his children demand for salvation. He can just ignore them, if he wants to. Is this what you really believe as a Mormon, Johnny? I just want to make sure.

[Guest johnny_cat]

So, let me understand you correctly. God does not need a Father or Mother. God does not need a wife. God does not need a physical environment to live in. God does not need to obey certain laws leading to his becoming God, nor does he need to obey them subsequently. God does not need to have children, and in fact, was not a child himself. God did not need to procreate with Mary, however that was done, in order to conceive Jesus. God does not need to wait for his children to decide to be saved, he just saves them anyway. And, God does not need to respond to his children demand for salvation. He can just ignore them, if he wants to. Is this what you really believe as a Mormon, Johnny? I just want to make sure.

Why do I have a feeling that you're going to provide an avalanche of obscure quotes to show me what I "really" believe?

I suppose it comes down to how you define Godhood. Was the premortal Christ God? Is the Holy Ghost God? LDS scriptures say yes, they are. Do the above "requirements" apply to them? Clearly not. So, obviously, they did not "need" any of the requirements you gave, so these are not requirements for Godhood. Why would you insist that the Father is the only contingent member of the Godhead?

[PD1]

It came from here:

And given what the LDS have said thus far, including Joseph Smith's comments about God not always existing as God, but that he became God, is it not fair to conclude that the LDS God, indeed, needs a whole lot of assistance to be what he is?

For instance, since you keep avoiding the questions, let me ask again, doesn't the Mormon God need a Father and a Mother? Does not the Mormon God need a wife?

There is a big difference in What God is and what God does.

Given the context of what we're talking about, if God is not, any subsequent discussion about activity is moot. Conversely, what God does reflects what he is. For if God is imperfect in any way, shape, or form, then so will his actions be.

Now, Z, would you care to answer whether or not God the Father needs a Father and Mother, in order that he might be a God? So far, there seems to be some discrepancy among the LDS on whether he does or not. And the same appears to be the case with God's wife as well, even going to far as to contradict what D&C 132 has to say. What do you say?

[Zakuska]

Because Gods Father and Mother where God... he is God by nature.

Two dogs wont have ducks for babies.

[PD1]

So, let me understand you correctly. God does not need a Father or Mother. God does not need a wife. God does not need a physical environment to live in. God does not need to obey certain laws leading to his becoming God, nor does he need to obey them subsequently. God does not need to have children, and in fact, was not a child himself. God did not need to procreate with Mary, however that was done, in order to conceive Jesus. God does not need to wait for his children to decide to be saved, he just saves them anyway. And, God does not need to respond to his children demand for salvation. He can just ignore them, if he wants to. Is this what you really believe as a Mormon, Johnny? I just want to make sure.

Why do I have a feeling that you're going to provide an avalanche of obscure quotes to show me what I "really" believe?

I suppose it comes down to how you define Godhood. Was the premortal Christ God? Is the Holy Ghost God? LDS scriptures say yes, they are. Do the above "requirements" apply to them? Clearly not. So, obviously, they did not "need" any of the requirements you gave, so these are not requirements for Godhood. Why would you insist that the Father is the only contingent member of the Godhead?

Don't worry about any avalanches, for your own answers are enough to either vindicate or condemn your theology.

As for your broad allusions to the godhead, lets just stick with God the Father. For until I really understand where you are coming from in relation to him, there is really no need to discuss the others. For as I stated way back when, depending on one's view of God will affect what one believes about all the other doctrines, whether it be about Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Sin, Salvation, the Church, etc.

So, was I correct in my summation of what you just said about God not needing anything to exist as God? Yea or Nay?

[PD1]

Because Gods Father and Mother where God... he is God by nature.

That's not answering the question, though. Does God the Father need them to exist as God? By implication, you seem to be saying that he does. Is that correct?

[Guest johnny_cat]

As for your broad allusions to the godhead, lets just stick with God the Father. For until I really understand where you are coming from in relation to him, there is really no need to discuss the others. For as I stated way back when, depending on one's view of God will affect what one believes about all the other doctrines, whether it be about Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Sin, Salvation, the Church, etc.

So, was I correct in my summation of what you just said about God not needing anything to exist as God? Yea or Nay?

I'm sorry. I believe in a three-person Godhead, so I will restrict my definition of Godhood to that. To say that only the Father is God is not true.

To repeat for about the fourth time, God is not a contingent being. He needs nothing to exist as God.

[Zakuska]

I refer you to the scripture.

Isa. 29: 16

16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter

[Teancum]

1.  How could Christ have been God before becoming a man, given what the LDS say are the prerequisites that must be followed in order for a man to progess unto godhood? 

I am not sure what prerequisites you are talking about.

But I do know, that based on LDS scripture Christ wa God before he came to earth

Did Jesus fulfill these prerequisites elsewhere?

What prerequisites? You sure you are not making somehting up here?

2.  If the LDS accept the Bible as scripture, then there is scriptural evidence which explicitly states the God not only does not have a physical body,

If there is I have never read it. And I have read the bible many times.

but does not need one as well.

I am not sure where it says that but so what?

Do you believe Jesus has a body? Do you believe he is God?

Otherwise, given his immensity, we should be able to see him right now by just looking out the window and glancing at his feet.

Can you say metaphore?

3.  While I appreciate the personal insight, the question remains concerning God's aseity

No, God does not need anything to be God.

According to the honest LDS, he does. 

I guess I am not honest then. But then neither are you. You want to force the issue.

Yet, if he needs something, then is he not imperfect?  And if he is imperfect, then what does that say about one's Christianity, and what does that say about the kind of God that Christian is following?

What good is it to answer you? First, I tell you God does not need anything to be God in LDS Scripture. You then say that I am not honest. Then you say that LDS believe something that I said the oppiste......

Quite a straw man you have built up here.

Teancum

[Guest johnny_cat]

I was rereading the King Follett Discourse, and I find it interesting that Joseph Smith said, "God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did." Now, we know that Jesus was God before dwelling on earth, so His mortal life did not affect in any way His Godhood. If, as Joseph said, the Father did the same, why would that necessarily have made Him a contingent being who "needed" to come to an earth to be God. Like Jesus, He could just as easily have been God before, during, and after any mortal experience He had.

[YH8]

Acts 17:24-25 [KJV]

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men

[Zakuska]

"You are transparent."

ROFL

Maybe he's his own "invisible" God. Would that make him his own Grandpa?

LOL

[T-Shirt]

PD1,

Let me see if I understand where you are coming from and where you are going wiith this.

Is it your belief that God, the omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient being, for trillions and trillions of years and beyond (whatever eternity is) existed all by himself for all this time and then for some reason, six thousand years ago, he decided to create this earth and us? Then, after this earth ends, he will take more than half of those he created and lock them up in hell for eternity, and the others he will allow to live with him for the rest of eternity. What then? What is the purpose for all this? For all these trillions of years prior to the creation of the earth, was God still God? What was he God of? What purpose did it serve him? I am interested to know your answers to these questions.

Thanks,

T-Shirt

[Teancum]

Sigh.

This is wearisome work.

I appreciate your honesty

Why thank you.

But you did say I was dishonest in another post. Or at least strongly implied it.

On the other hand, I was not quoting a Hebrew passage (John 1:3).  I was citing a passage from the Greek text which when it is  translated reads, "and without him, not one thing came to be [ginomai

[YH8]

PD1,

Let me see if I understand where you are coming from and where you are going wiith this. 

Is it your belief that God, the omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient being, for trillions and trillions of years and beyond (whatever eternity is) existed all by himself for all this time and then for some reason, six thousand years ago, he decided to create this earth and us?  Then, after this earth ends, he will take more than half of those he created and lock them up in hell for eternity, and the others he will allow to live with him for the rest of eternity.  What then?  What is the purpose for all this?  For all these trillions of years prior to the creation of the earth, was God still God?  What was he God of?  What purpose did it serve him?  I am interested to know your answers to these questions.

Thanks,

T-Shirt

Don't expect much. PD1 will likely tell you what you believe rather than answer any questions. Only s/he is allowed to ask questions. And don't expect him/her to incorporate anything you say into his thinking.

[Teancum]

Because Gods Father and Mother where God... he is God by nature.

That's not answering the question, though. Does God the Father need them to exist as God? By implication, you seem to be saying that he does. Is that correct?

How about a few for you:

Does God save and damn his creations before they are in existenec?

If God does not need anyting then why did he create us?

What was God doing before he created us and this universe?

Does God make the rules that govern this universe?

Does he exist within those rules?

Does this God sovereignly act on His own?

Is he bound by rules he establishes?

If not can we trust such a God?

If he elects and damns at the instant of creation is he worthy of worship?

Let's start there and see if this wholly non contingent being is worthy of worship.

Teancun

[YH8]

Teancum,

Didn't you see my post to T-Shirt? You must be a unibrow like me? You seem to think that PD1 will give you an intellectually honest response? You must have been brainwashed by your leaders to think the best about people and to give them a chance.

[PD1]

As for your broad allusions to the godhead, lets just stick with God the Father. For until I really understand where you are coming from in relation to him, there is really no need to discuss the others. For as I stated way back when, depending on one's view of God will affect what one believes about all the other doctrines, whether it be about Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Sin, Salvation, the Church, etc.

So, was I correct in my summation of what you just said about God not needing anything to exist as God? Yea or Nay?

I'm sorry. I believe in a three-person Godhead, so I will restrict my definition of Godhood to that. To say that only the Father is God is not true.

To repeat for about the fourth time, God is not a contingent being. He needs nothing to exist as God.

No one said, or even implied, that the Son or Spirit were not God. But, they are not the subject of my questions. God the Father is.

And although you keep repeating yourself, you keep avoiding the very specific questions that need to be answered. So, let me repeat, for the third time, You beleive that, God does not need a Father or Mother. God does not need a wife. God does not need a physical environment to live in. God does not need to obey certain laws leading to his becoming God, nor does he need to obey them subsequently. God does not need to have children, and in fact, was not a child himself. God did not need to procreate with Mary, however that was done, in order to conceive Jesus. God does not need to wait for his children to decide to be saved, he just saves them anyway. And, God does not need to respond to his children demand for salvation. He can just ignore them, if he wants to. Is this what you really believe as a Mormon, Johnny? I just want to make sure.

[PD1]

I refer you to the scripture.

Isa. 29: 16

16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter

[YH8]

PD1,

If you continue to play dumb, etc. and keep repeating your version of LDS views in the face of what LDS tell you, does that mean you do not exist? Does it mean that you are just a computer virus?

[Zakuska]

Hmm... looks like I need a virus update.

W32.PD1_Trojan Just hit me.