Are Mormons' Christians?

[Teancum]

I do have a question about whether or not the LDS God needs a physical universe in order to exist, though.

The physical matter of the universe has simply alwyas existed, along with God. So the question is pointless.

You said that he did not.  My question is, before God became God, where did this physical man abide?

There is nothing in LDS scripture that requires God to have had a body prior to becoming God. He most likely did not and later created His own body.

Also, I have a question about the LDS God's need of a wife.

There is nothing in LDS scripture that requires God to have a wife.

Is it not required of LDS husbands, that if they want to reach the upper echelons of glory, that they must be married?

LDS believe they need to be married to obtain the highest potential God has for us. Can they still be a god, sharing the divine natur with the Father and the Son without it? Nothing in LDS scripture precludes that.

What precludes God from conforming to this mandate, if he supposedly is what Mormons claim?

Nothing. He can have a wife if he wishes.

Finally, you failed to mention anything about God's ancestry.  Does God need someone to precede him, and assist him along the way, in order to become what he is?

No.

Teancum

[emaughan]

you do realise you lied when you said I had never answered your question, and that by so doing you seriously compromised your credibility, don't you?

Speaking as one of the condemed - as decread by PD1 who has kicked Christ out of the judgement seat - this is okay. PD1 is lieing for Jesus. Since PD1 speaks for Jesus, interprets the gospel of Jesus, and judges for Jesus, it makes sense that he should lie for Jesus.

Have a nice day all - I think I will sign of from this thread as trying to have a discussion with the almighty PD1 is too much for me. He is just way beyond me and far more wise.

WOW - I just had a thought!

PD1 knows it all, is the ultimate authority of how scripture should be interprated, and has judged us all to Hell. Do you think PD1 might be the Lord in disguise???

Nahhh - he just thinks he is. I'm going to go check out the realestate market in Hell now. Bye all

[PD1]

PD1, you are becoming seriously irritating in the way you keep mixing up the issues of "becoming a god" and "being a god". Make up your mind, will you? Is the question:

-Did God need anything to become God?

OR

-Does God need anything to be God?

Those two questions are NOT the same. You cannot go on taking our answers to one of them and applying them to the other. This is dishonest.

Del

Actually, both questions are relevant to the discussion, given that LDS theology teaches that God was once a man. Therefore, what was needed for that man to become God, and what is needed for the LDS God to retain his divine status? Is that better?

[PD1]

What does the LDS God need to exist as God?  Thanks.

There is nothing in LDS Scripture that says one NEEDS a body to be a god.

Jesus was God before he got His body.

Personally I believe the Father was as well-God before he got His body.

Teancum

So, before God became God, he already was God? I thought he was a mortal man, according to LDS teachings. Whatever the case, a body is not all that is included in the question. How about things like the physical universe, a wife, and a Father? Does the LDS God need those things in order to be God?

[PD1]

Another dishonest thing to do is keep pressing us for an answer to your question, while evading the questions we ask you. Let me ask you, for the third time:

There is nothing that God could be other than God himself.

[PD1]

The point of the question is for you to answer whether or not the LDS God needs something to exist.

[PD1]

I do have a question about whether or not the LDS God needs a physical universe in order to exist, though.

The physical matter of the universe has simply alwyas existed, along with God. So the question is pointless.

You said that he did not.

[randyc]

To exist is to be made out of particles known as "matter".

Reeeeaalllly? Thoughts don't "exist"? Hmmm, sounds like you're not using the same definition he was, so you can't really get him on that one.

[Del March]

Actually, both questions are relevant to the discussion, given that LDS theology teaches that God was once a man.  Therefore, what was needed for that man to become God, and what is needed for the LDS God to retain his divine status?  Is that better?

It's better, but it's still as useless.

I already told you that we don't know anything more about God before we were created than the little "As man is, God once was" snippet, whatever it means. So you can keep asking us about it till the cows come home, the answer is: we don't know.

Del

[Del March]

So, before God became God, he already was God?  I thought he was a mortal man, according to LDS teachings.  Whatever the case, a body is not all that is included in the question.  How about things like the physical universe, a wife, and a Father?  Does the LDS God need those things in order to be God?

How do you expect us to know anything about things which God has not revealed? Do YOU know more about your God than He revealed?

Del

[Del March]

Your question was already answered when I discussed God's necessity and potential.  I'm sorry you missed it.

Sorry? Yeah right! If you were sorry, you would return the courtesy I extended to you and point me to the pages where I can find your answer.

Or maybe you would hold yourself to the same standard that you held me, and repeat your answer.

In short: you haven't answered my questions, and you are elluding them.

Del

[Del March]

So, if God does not need anything to be God, then when he died as a man, who was his redeemer which made it possible for him to progress to his present status?

Who said He needed a Redeemer? Jesus didn't need a redeemer.

Also, if God needs nothing to be God, why must the LDS men have to be married in order to become gods, like God, themselves?

Because God said so.

Del

[PD1]

Actually, both questions are relevant to the discussion, given that LDS theology teaches that God was once a man.

[PD1]

So, before God became God, he already was God?

[Teancum]

So, before God became God, he already was God? I thought he was a mortal man, according to LDS teachings. Whatever the case, a body is not all that is included in the question. How about things like the physical universe, a wife, and a Father? Does the LDS God need those things in order to be God?

So, before God became God, he already was God?

Christ was God before he became a man. Based on LDS scripture there is nothing that says God was lacking a body before he became GOd. The KFD, which deals with this also alludes to the fact that Christ was falling the pattern of His Father. Thus, The Father may have worked out the salvationof a world the same way Christ did for us. My PERSONAL view is The Father is the Eternal God of all other gods. He started the process and was the savior of the first worlds he ever created thus gaining abody in the process.

a body is not all that is included in the question. 

Seemed like it was. I asnwered your other questions in another post.

Teancum

[PD1]

So, if God does not need anything to be God, then when he died as a man, who was his redeemer which made it possible for him to progress to his present status?

Who said He needed a Redeemer? Jesus didn't need a redeemer.

Also, if God needs nothing to be God, why must the LDS men have to be married in order to become gods, like God, themselves?

Because God said so.

Del

How do you know that the mortal man, God, did not need a redeemer by basing your assumptions upon the person of the Mormon Jesus? The reason I ask is that when one takes into account what the LDS have said about Jesus, especially as it relates to the question I've been inquiring about for quite a few days now, it is quite clear that not only did Jesus need a redeemer, as did the Mormon God (if he truly exists at all), Jesus could not have been or done what is attributed to him in scripture. In other words, the Mormon Jesus was as big of a sinner as his father, and incapable of redeeming anyone. Anyway, that's a subject for another thread.

As for your "He said so comment," I'm sorry, but that adds to the imperfection of the Mormon God, for it makes him out to be a hypocrite as well. And we know that hypocrites are hardly worthy of veneration, much less to be recognized as being a God.

So, the Mormon God is a "Do as I say, but don't do as I do," type of God. Are you absolutely sure that that is the type of God you want to be worshiping, much less the "only true God" spoken of in scripture?

[Teancum]

Actually, the question is not pointless, since scripture is clear that prior to God bringing all things into being, they had no being (Jn. 1:3).  So, just how can physical matter and God co-exist eternally, when scripture states otherwise?

I am not a linguist but I havew read that all things created or made actually means organized, at least the Hebrew rendition of Genesis.

But I believe that EVs carry ALL things to far. Made can also be made like making a cake out of pre-existing materials.

Why would God find it necessary to "create his own body," if he already existed without one?

Ask Him. Why did Christ become a man and why does he have a body now?

Also, you state that there is nothing in LDS scripture which requires that God be married, yet in D&C 132:19ff, it seems evident that unless a person is married, then that person cannot become a god.  So, how did God manage to become God without the need of a wife?

I do not believe D&C 132 applies to The Eternal God of all other gods.

Finally, since LDS theology teaches that God is from a long line of gods and goddesses, each of which are naturally related to each other, if God the Father did not have a Father, and yet was a man, then did God just somehow create himself, redeem himself, and then progress on to godhood independently, thereby defying LDS theological teaching along the way?  Thanks.

There certainly has been speculative non-official teachings about this. I believe they conflict with LDS Canon and can thus leave them aside. Our canon does not teach this.

Teancum

[PD1]

Christ was God before he became a man. Based on LDS scripture there is nothing that says God was lacking a body before he became GOd. The KFD, which deals with this also alludes to the fact that Christ was falling the pattern of His Father. Thus, The Father may have worked out the salvationof a world the same way Christ did for us. My PERSONAL view is The Father is the Eternal God of all other gods. He started the process and was the savior of the first worlds he ever created thus gaining abody in the process.

Teancum

1. How could Christ have been God before becoming a man, given what the LDS say are the prerequisites that must be followed in order for a man to progess unto godhood? Did Jesus fulfill these prerequisites elsewhere?

2. If the LDS accept the Bible as scripture, then there is scriptural evidence which explicitly states the God not only does not have a physical body, but does not need one as well. Otherwise, given his immensity, we should be able to see him right now by just looking out the window and glancing at his feet.

1 Kings 8:27 "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain Thee, how much less this house which I have built!

Isaiah 66:1 Thus says the LORD, "Heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool. Where then is a house you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest?

3. While I appreciate the personal insight, the question remains concerning God's aseity. Does he need anything to exist as God? According to the honest LDS, he does. Yet, if he needs something, then is he not imperfect? And if he is imperfect, then what does that say about one's Christianity, and what does that say about the kind of God that Christian is following?

[Guest johnny_cat]

How could Christ have been God before becoming a man, given what the LDS say are the prerequisites that must be followed in order for a man to progess unto godhood? Did Jesus fulfill these prerequisites elsewhere?

Do you think Jesus was just a man?

[PD1]

Actually, the question is not pointless, since scripture is clear that prior to God bringing all things into being, they had no being (Jn. 1:3).

[PD1]

How could Christ have been God before becoming a man, given what the LDS say are the prerequisites that must be followed in order for a man to progess unto godhood? Did Jesus fulfill these prerequisites elsewhere?

Do you think Jesus was just a man?

Jesus was not just a man, but this conversation, as much as the LDS want to try and divert attention away from the person of God the Father, is actually about God the Father.

Johnny, are you under the impression that God needs something to exist as God? Perhaps a Father above him, or a wife right now (D&C 132)? How about, does God need a physical universe to live in? That's what we're talking about, Johnny. Perhaps later on we'll talk more specifically about the person of the Mormon Jesus, but, for now, lets try and stay on topic. Okay? Thanks.

[Guest johnny_cat]

Jesus was not just a man, but this conversation, as much as the LDS want to try and divert attention away from the person of God the Father, is actually about God the Father.

Johnny, are you under the impression that God needs something to exist as God? Perhaps a Father above him, or a wife right now (D&C 132)? How about, does God need a physical universe to live in? That's what we're talking about, Johnny. Perhaps later on we'll talk more specifically about the person of the Mormon Jesus, but, for now, lets try and stay on topic. Okay? Thanks.

I was responding to your statement that Jesus couldn't have been a God before He became a man. I wasn't the one who changed the subject.

Either way, if Jesus was a God before His mortal birth, then His Godhood is not contingent on gaining a body and having a mortal experience. Likewise, the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Ghost, is also God without having experienced, so far as we know, a mortal life. The Godhood of neither of them is contingent on anything. It follows, then, that God the Father is also not a contingent being, and your criticism of LDS theology is found to have no merit.

[YH8]

Acts 17:24-25 [KJV]

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men

[PD1]

Jesus was not just a man, but this conversation, as much as the LDS want to try and divert attention away from the person of God the Father, is actually about God the Father.

Johnny, are you under the impression that God needs something to exist as God? Perhaps a Father above him, or a wife right now (D&C 132)? How about, does God need a physical universe to live in? That's what we're talking about, Johnny. Perhaps later on we'll talk more specifically about the person of the Mormon Jesus, but, for now, lets try and stay on topic. Okay? Thanks.

I was responding to your statement that Jesus couldn't have been a God before He became a man. I wasn't the one who changed the subject.

Either way, if Jesus was a God before His mortal birth, then His Godhood is not contingent on gaining a body and having a mortal experience. Likewise, the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Ghost, is also God without having experienced, so far as we know, a mortal life. The Godhood of neither of them is contingent on anything. It follows, then, that God the Father is also not a contingent being, and your criticism of LDS theology is found to have no merit.

Johnny, if the LDS God needs anything at all to exist as God, then he is a contingent being, and imperfect as well. And given what the LDS have said thus far, including Joseph Smith's comments about God not always existing as God, but that he became God, is it not fair to conclude that the LDS God, indeed, needs a whole lot of assistance to be what he is?

For instance, since you keep avoiding the questions, let me ask again, doesn't the Mormon God need a Father and a Mother? Does not the Mormon God need a wife? Does not the Mormon God need a physical environment in which to live? Does not the Mormon God need to obey certain laws that led to his becoming God, and most certainly sustains him? Does not the Mormon God need to have children, given that that is what Mormons believe that his father did? Did not the Mormon God need to procreate, naturally, with Mary to conceive Jesus? Does not the Mormon God need to wait for a response from his children before he saves them? Does not the Mormon God need to save his children, when they decide to be saved?

The list of needy questions that need to be honestly answered goes on and on, but the point ought to be clear. As soon as you say "yes" to any one of these questions, you've just acknowledged that the God you're worshiping is imperfect. And if he's imperfect, then just how can he be trusted, and what kind of "Christian" does that make you?

Conversely, the Bible does not depict God the Father as in need of anything to exist, for he is perfect in his aseity, as well as holiness, righteousness, immutability, etc. Now, that is the kind of God worthy or worship and praise, as well as trust. Is that the same God you're thinking of, Johnny? By all indications, it is not. So, why are you trying to tell me that it is?

[Zakuska]

This is the age old question PD1. Im reminded of its rendition on Sesame street:

Which came first... the chicken or the egg.

Not a single theologian, bible scholar, has ever been able to answer this.