Are Mormons' Christians?

[PD1]

All... a few observations... The crux of the matter seems to be this.

If Im reading straight.... According to PD1....

1) Somehow God once being a man or some how being less than perfect or he some how in "becoming" a God, somehow implies that he cannot be God.

I would like to know why based on what PD1 thinks the bible reveals. How this is inconsistant?

The manhood part of the LDS concept of God is only part of the discussion. The real question involves God's aseity, or need of something or someone other than himself for his existence. Apparently the LDS think that God is in need before he can actually be God, or is in need after becoming God. Now, if God needs even one thing to exist as God, then how can he be perfect? And if he is not perfect, due to his need(s), then why worship him? Furthermore, if he is not perfect, then just what standard is he using when he commands people to "be ye perfect," since obviously it is not him? So, in part, you're on the right track, Z. But, there is a whole lot more to this than God's alleged manhood.

[PD1]

As for misunderstanding the LDS concept of God, again, is it me that is doing the misunderstanding, or is it the LDS who really understand who their God is versus the God of the Bible?  Acts 17:24-25 states,

"The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; neither is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all life and breath and all things."

What version of the Bible are you quoting here? The KJV states:

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

25 Neither is worshipped with men

[PD1]

The question becomes, which are you going to believe:

[PD1]

(3)  There is no such thing as time in infinity, and according to what scripture tells us, God and Jesus, and most certainly the Holy Spirit, were enjoying each other's company (Jn. 17:5), glorifying one another.

Don't you also believe ("scripture tells us") in the Trinity? Then God is hanging out with himself, glorifying himself?

Y, your modalistic definition is not an accurate representation of what Trinitarians believe, though, much less does it deal with what Jesus said he was doing with the Father prior to his coming to earth. May I encourage you to now deal with the questions that have been asked of you indirectly as a proponent of Mormon theology? What does the LDS God need to exist as God? Thanks.

[PD1]

Don't you also believe ("scripture tells us") in the Trinity? Then God is hanging out with himself, glorifying himself?

Don't forget: <snip>

Again, a modalistic misunderstanding of the Trinity is not the subject. Perhaps, eventually, we will get around to discussing the non-biblical Jesus of the LDS, in comparison with what the Bible has to say about the Trinitarian unity in the Godhead, but for now lets address this topic. For if the record cannot be set straight on the person of the LDS God, then what difference does it make what anyone else believes about the other persons in the godhead? Does the LDS God need anything to exist as God?

[PD1]

Paul, none of this has to do with creedalism.  Yet, it has everything to do with biblical revelation.  I quoted this earlier, but will do so again for your edification.  Acts 17:24-25 says,

"The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; neither is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all life and breath and all things."

From this passage, what do you think it is talking about in respect to what we've been talking about?

I have noticed something over the years in talking to many conservative Protestants. There seems to be the belief that Christian doctrine originated from the Bible and the philosophical framework was built up around scripture rather than the reverse.

It is almost like people believe the following occurred sometime in the past:

"Hey, Claudius! Come over here. Look what I've found. I was just reading Acts 17:24-25. I bet this means that God is aseitic. No one ever suggested that before! I'm glad I'm reading the Bible to create our philosophic framework!"

The reality appears to be a gradual adoption of a Hellenistic approach to theology, with people then looking in the scriptures for support for that theology.

The LDS believe in a God that was once a man, who is in needs of various elements to maintain his divinity, and that propagates himself through natural means, and you're concerned about the Hellenistic influence upon Christian theology?

Paul, the subject is the imperfect, LDS, God, and what kind of "Christian" a person is who follows him. What does he need to exist as God?

[emaughan]

Paul, the subject is the imperfect, LDS, God, and what kind of "Christian" a person is who follows him. What does he need to exist as God?

Oh! oh! I think I get it now - are you trying to get us to say "well gee God needs a body to be God". Is that the point of your question?

PD1 it is painfully obvious that you have an agenda with your question. Why not say, "I know this is what Mormons really believe and thus it is wrong". Your question is demanding a specific response from you - why don't you tell us what you want us to say - don't you know how this EV bible thumper thing works!?

Here's a summary:

Fundy EV: What is the answer to X

LDS poster1: Well it could mean Y or Z depending on how your defining X.

LDS poster2: Maybe it means Z - I believe it does.

LDS poster3: Hey guys according to this script it is likely to mean W

LDS posters 1 & 2: Good point #3

Fundy EV: Poster #1 can't answer the question - can you? Your going to Hell.

Fundy EV: Poster #2 you may think it means Z but your church really teaches Q (no not Q!)

Fundy EV: Poster #3 Your twisting the scriptures and your understanding is wrong. Real Christians do not believe that! You are not Christian and I am!

Fundy EV: You all better repent and believe in bible (my interpretation) or your all going to Hell!

That's how the game is played PD1 - you've got some of the parts: we're going to hell, arogance, your 100% right - were 100% wrong. What you need to work on is being more specific on how we failed to answer your question. Kind of like how the evil villian always tells the heroes his plot when he supossedly has them doomed to die in his "well planned" death trap. Keep at it - I think you've got lots of potential.

[Del March]

The Bible says that God needs nothing to exist as God, yet all things need God for their existence, which is not the LDS position.

Correction: the Bible says that all things need God (you got that one right), and it doesn't say that God needs anything, which is NOT equal to God needs nothing, but it doesn't say that God doesn't need anything.

And you STILL haven't proved that LDS believe that God needs anything to BE God.

Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were born, Or Thou didst give birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God.

God created everything in the world, and He is the eternal God. Doesn't say anything about God needing or not needing anything.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

God created everything. Doesn't say anything about God needing or not needing anything. Interestingly, though, it mentions a beginning. Beginning of what? And what was before that beginning?

Acts 17:24 "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 neither is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all life and breath and all things;

God created everything, and He doesn't need anything men can give Him. Interestingly, though, it mentions God not being served by human hands. Does it mean He is served by other hands? And does He need those hands?

Romans 11:36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

God created everything. Doesn't say anything about God needing or not needing anything.

Colossians 1:15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

God created everything. Doesn't say anything about God needing or not needing anything. Interestingly, though, it mentions Christ being the first-born of all creation. Does that mean that Jesus was in fact created? Does it mean that there was a beginning to Christ? Does that mean that the Father existed before Christ? And what was before the creation of all things?

Revelation 4:11 "Worthy art Thou, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for Thou didst create all things, and because of Thy will they existed, and were created."

God created everything. Doesn't say anything about God needing or not needing anything.

As for your last quote, it's not authoritative to me.

I'm sorry PD1, but you've so far utterly failed to demonstrate that God doesn't need anything, other than what men could give Him, to be God. I'm not saying He does, but you haven't in any way shown that He doesn't. You haven't given me any Biblical basis for your doctrine of aseity.

Care to try again? Or at least to show me where I misinterpreted the Bible in your idea?

Del

[PD1]

Paul, the subject is the imperfect, LDS, God, and what kind of "Christian" a person is who follows him. What does he need to exist as God?

Oh! oh! I think I get it now - are you trying to get us to say "well gee God needs a body to be God". Is that the point of your question?

You've got a portion of what is being asked, and I commend you for that. Ultimately, I'm wanting you to tell me about your God, since the accusation often flies that the non-Mormon doesn't know what the Mormon believes. And I'm asking a very specific question. Will you answer it?

I hope you don't mind me not dignifying a response to the rest of your post, since it clearly has nothing to do with what I'm trying to find out from you about your God. Does he need anything, whatsoever, to exist as God? Body? Wife? Universe? Children? Father? Mother? Laws? You know. Anything?

[PD1]

The Bible says that God needs nothing to exist as God, yet all things need God for their existence, which is not the LDS position.

Correction: the Bible says that all things need God (you got that one right), and it doesn't say that God needs anything, which is NOT equal to God needs nothing, but it doesn't say that God doesn't need anything.

And you STILL haven't proved that LDS believe that God needs anything to BE God.

Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were born, Or Thou didst give birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God.

God created everything in the world, and He is the eternal God. Doesn't say anything about God needing or not needing anything.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

God created everything. Doesn't say anything about God needing or not needing anything. Interestingly, though, it mentions a beginning. Beginning of what? And what was before that beginning?

Acts 17:24 "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 neither is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all life and breath and all things;

God created everything, and He doesn't need anything men can give Him. Interestingly, though, it mentions God not being served by human hands. Does it mean He is served by other hands? And does He need those hands?

Romans 11:36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

God created everything. Doesn't say anything about God needing or not needing anything.

Colossians 1:15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

God created everything. Doesn't say anything about God needing or not needing anything. Interestingly, though, it mentions Christ being the first-born of all creation. Does that mean that Jesus was in fact created? Does it mean that there was a beginning to Christ? Does that mean that the Father existed before Christ? And what was before the creation of all things?

Revelation 4:11 "Worthy art Thou, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for Thou didst create all things, and because of Thy will they existed, and were created."

God created everything. Doesn't say anything about God needing or not needing anything.

As for your last quote, it's not authoritative to me.

I'm sorry PD1, but you've so far utterly failed to demonstrate that God doesn't need anything, other than what men could give Him, to be God. I'm not saying He does, but you haven't in any way shown that He doesn't. You haven't given me any Biblical basis for your doctrine of aseity.

Care to try again? Or at least to show me where I misinterpreted the Bible in your idea?

Del

Anything and nothing, in the context of the question, are synonymous.

It is not up to me to prove what the Mormon God needs, because that is not the point of the question. The point of the question is for you to answer whether or not the LDS God needs something to exist. Does he? The Bible says he does not. Do you agree or disagree? If you disagree, then what does he need?

[Zakuska]

I think the better question is if PD1s God needs anything to "exist"?

Since PD1s God is "immaterial". By definition IT cant exist.

To exist is to be made out of particles known as "matter".

[Del March]

Anything and nothing, in the context of the question, are synonymous.

No. Saying "the Bible says God doesn't need anything" or "the Bible doesn't say God needs something" is NOT synonymous.

The point of the question is for you to answer whether or not the LDS God needs something to exist.  Does he?

You're kidding right? I have already answered that question several times.

Del

[emaughan]

God has a body, but does He need a body to be God - no. I base this on the fact that the premortal Christ and the Holy Ghost are fully invested with the authority of God the Father. Christ was the creator of the physical universe under the direction of the Father when He was without body.

Does God have to obey laws or principles - I allready answered this - yes.

Does the Father have a spouse - I believe so, and so do many LDS but it has not been fully revealed. Does God need a spouse - see the first paragraph.

Does God need the universe to be God - no I guess He could shift Himself into some ultimate void and just hang out forever.

Children - no He doesn't need them to be God, but His key title would be meaningless - Father.

Faith - it is the power by which things are created - thus God could not be God without Faith.

Justice - the Calvinist God is not God as I have come to know Him. To be the God I worship He has to be just - otherwise He is just a very powerfull evil being.

Mercy - same as justice.

So here is the summary. God needs Faith, Justicy, Mercy, and abide by Law - not chaos.

(Now this is where you state that I am wrong and going to Hell because I believe that God needs those things.)

[PD1]

I think the better question is if PD1s God needs anything to "exist"?

Since PD1s God is "immaterial". By definition IT cant exist.

To exist is to be made out of particles known as "matter".

So, the LDS God needs physical matter to exist? Thank you.

[emaughan]

I think the better question is if PD1s God needs anything to "exist"?

Part of Satan's influence during the apostacy was to seperate God from man. He did this quite well as we can see from PD1's beliefs. God is no longer our Father in Heaven, we are not really in God's image as His children, God is a mystery, God has no body, God is everywhere and yet nowhere at once, God has no parts or passions....

God has become a great, incomprehensible, intangible, nothing...

Satan does not want us to believe that God is our Father in heaven who loves us. Nor does Satan wish us to realize our own worth in the eyes of God - to believe that God, our Father, wishes us to become like Him has gone from sacred truth to blasphmy. Satan did a pretty good job - wouldn't you agree PD1?

[PD1]

The point of the question is for you to answer whether or not the LDS God needs something to exist.

[Teancum]

The Bible says that God needs nothing to exist as God, yet all things need God for their existence, which is not the LDS position.

What do LDS say God needs?

Enlighten me. EVs keep telling me what my religion really teaches so I wait for your supreme knowledge.

Teancum

[PD1]

God has a body, but does He need a body to be God - no. I base this on the fact that the premortal Christ and the Holy Ghost are fully invested with the authority of God the Father. Christ was the creator of the physical universe under the direction of the Father when He was without body.

Does God have to obey laws or principles - I allready answered this - yes.

Does the Father have a spouse - I believe so, and so do many LDS but it has not been fully revealed. Does God need a spouse - see the first paragraph.

Does God need the universe to be God - no I guess He could shift Himself into some ultimate void and just hang out forever.

Children - no He doesn't need them to be God, but His key title would be meaningless - Father.

Faith - it is the power by which things are created - thus God could not be God without Faith.

Justice - the Calvinist God is not God as I have come to know Him. To be the God I worship He has to be just - otherwise He is just a very powerfull evil being.

Mercy - same as justice.

So here is the summary. God needs Faith, Justicy, Mercy, and abide by Law - not chaos.

(Now this is where you state that I am wrong and going to Hell because I believe that God needs those things.)

No, I'm not going to condemn anyone who isn't already condemned (Jn. 3:18). So, I'm sorry to disappoint you. But, I will commend you on at least trying to addresss the subject. Thank You!

I do have a question about whether or not the LDS God needs a physical universe in order to exist, though. You said that he did not. My question is, before God became God, where did this physical man abide?

Also, I have a question about the LDS God's need of a wife. Is it not required of LDS husbands, that if they want to reach the upper echelons of glory, that they must be married? What precludes God from conforming to this mandate, if he supposedly is what Mormons claim?

Finally, you failed to mention anything about God's ancestry. Does God need someone to precede him, and assist him along the way, in order to become what he is? If so, who is to say that that assistance is not continuing, and if it is, then how does such a belief effect the perfection of his attributes?

Again, thanks for dialoguing.

[Del March]

The point of the question is for you to answer whether or not the LDS God needs something to exist.  Does he?

You're kidding right? I have already answered that question several times.

Del

I'm not kidding. And so far, I've only seen a couple of legitimate replies to the question, and neither of them was yours.

Check on pages 5 and 9

Del

[PD1]

The Bible says that God needs nothing to exist as God, yet all things need God for their existence, which is not the LDS position.

What do LDS say God needs?

Enlighten me. EVs keep telling me what my religion really teaches so I wait for your supreme knowledge.

Teancum

Actually, this question is for you to divulge your "supreme knowledge." That way you won't be repeating later what you've said right now, and we can talk about this a bit more constructively.

[PD1]

The point of the question is for you to answer whether or not the LDS God needs something to exist.

[Del March]

PD1, you are becoming seriously irritating in the way you keep mixing up the issues of "becoming a god" and "being a god". Make up your mind, will you? Is the question:

-Did God need anything to become God?

OR

-Does God need anything to be God?

Those two questions are NOT the same. You cannot go on taking our answers to one of them and applying them to the other. This is dishonest.

Del

[Teancum]

What does the LDS God need to exist as God? Thanks.

There is nothing in LDS Scripture that says one NEEDS a body to be a god.

Jesus was God before he got His body.

Personally I believe the Father was as well-God before he got His body.

Teancum

[Del March]

Another dishonest thing to do is keep pressing us for an answer to your question, while evading the questions we ask you. Let me ask you, for the third time:

There is nothing that God could be other than God himself.  His perfection necessitates that.  Therefore, God has always existed as God, and will always continue to do so, necessarily.

Isn't that an external requirement put on God? "God must be God": who defined that? Who or what can impose such a restriction on God? What would happen if God chose not to be God anymore? Or maybe God could not choose not to be God anymore? But in that case, God is not all-powerful. So?

Del

[Del March]

The point of the question is for you to answer whether or not the LDS God needs something to exist.  Does he?

You're kidding right? I have already answered that question several times.

Del

I'm not kidding. And so far, I've only seen a couple of legitimate replies to the question, and neither of them was yours.

Check on pages 5 and 9

Del

How about you just tell me, since the last time someone said "check here," it really had nothing to do with answering the question.

When was that?

But anyway, for at least the 4th time:

God does not need anything to be God.

Edit: you do realise you lied when you said I had never answered your question, and that by so doing you seriously compromised your credibility, don't you? If I were you, I'd work hard on restoring it, because you are looking more and more like a completely dishonest person who is here only to annoy us, and certainly not to save us or to honestly discuss with us. Makes me wonder what to think of your "I'll pray for you"s...

Del