Are Mormons' Christians?

[Zakuska]

Thats the age old question PD1.

Chicken or egg.

God Is.

I Am that I Am.

To be or not to be. That is the quetion.

Not even the big bang theory says the universe was made from nothing.

God is matter. He just is.

[Teancum]

I refer you to the scripture.

Isa. 29: 16

16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter

[T-Shirt]

PD1,

I really want to answer your questions, but I first want to understand you and see what common ground we may have. I will not pretend to know what you believe, so will you answer the questions I asked earlier?

Thanks,

T-Shirt

[PD1]

1.

[PD1]

I was rereading the King Follett Discourse, and I find it interesting that Joseph Smith said, "God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did." Now, we know that Jesus was God before dwelling on earth, so His mortal life did not affect in any way His Godhood. If, as Joseph said, the Father did the same, why would that necessarily have made Him a contingent being who "needed" to come to an earth to be God. Like Jesus, He could just as easily have been God before, during, and after any mortal experience He had.

Yet, what did this God need prior to becoming God, and given his potential to make such a drastic change in being, what is going to prevent such a being from drastically changing again? For it certainly cannot be something inherent within him.

Again, if God is who he says that he is, then there is no potential for him to be anything other than he is. Yet, that is not the LDS position when it comes to God, as you have so eloquently quoted from Joseph Smith. He said that the mortal man not only had the potential to change, but that he actually did change, into something other than he was. What Joseph failed to do, though, was to take into consideration what scripture has to say about God's immutability, and then proceeded to violate his aseity, as well, by formulating a story about God needing assistance in the transformation. Then when one factors in laws, wives, physicality, etc., into what it takes to remain God, one comes to the conclusion that this God is not really God at all. For God is not imperfect that he should need anything to be.

So, while I thank you for bringing to attention Joseph Smith's King Follett Sermon, it only served to further prove just how imperfect the LDS God really is.

[T-Shirt]

PD1,

Thanks for your thoughts. So I can better understand your beliefs are you willing to answer my earlier questions?

Thanks,

T-Shirt

[PD1]

Give it a rest.

You are transparent.

You do not respond to much, do you? Seems like you are only interested in hearing LDS say what you think they believe. And will not acknowledge anything unless it fits and/or can be spun to appear as what you would like to portray.

Have you been on this website before under another username?

Y, I've given you every opportunity to speak your mind on this issue. Now, if you don't like the questions, then don't get involved. After all, it is much easier, and simpler, to not think hard about what you believe than it is to think about it. I wish you well.

[Zakuska]

PD1 Quotes John 4:24

As for God having a physical body, I'm sure you've checked Num. 23:19 and John 4:24. On the other hand, are you saying that a physical body is necessary in order that God may exist as God? And yes, Jesus took on a physical body, but we're not talking about Jesus. We're talking about God the Father.

He must have missed this post on the Anthropomophic God by Tanyan.-

The late Raymond Brown [Catholic Theologian] who was considered by many in the world to be the Worlds leading scholar/Theologian on the Gospel of John stated regarding John 4:24 -" This is not an essential definition of GOD, but of GOD'S dealing with men; it means that GOD is spirit tward men because he gives the spirit [xivv 16] which begets them anew". There are in fact two other descriptions in Johns writtings : "GOD is light [1 JN 1:5], GOD is Love [1

[PD1]

PD1,

Let me see if I understand where you are coming from and where you are going wiith this.

Is it your belief that God, the omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient being, for trillions and trillions of years and beyond (whatever eternity is) existed all by himself for all this time and then for some reason, six thousand years ago, he decided to create this earth and us? Then, after this earth ends, he will take more than half of those he created and lock them up in hell for eternity, and the others he will allow to live with him for the rest of eternity. What then? What is the purpose for all this? For all these trillions of years prior to the creation of the earth, was God still God? What was he God of? What purpose did it serve him? I am interested to know your answers to these questions.

Thanks,

T-Shirt

T-S, what do your questions have to do with the subject? You're not trying to derail an otherwise interesting discussion are you? If not, then please address the topic of God's needs. Thank you.

[Paul McNabb]

Paul, believe what you will, but Acts 17:24-25 is dealing, in part

[YH8]

Give it a rest.

You are transparent.

You do not respond to much, do you?

[YH8]

T-S, what do your questions have to do with the subject?  You're not trying to derail an otherwise interesting discussion are you?  If not, then please address the topic of God's needs.  Thank you.

I'm thinking that this is only interesting for you, PD1. I for one am getting tired of your diatribe. But, then again us LDS unibrows are to listen and PD1 is to pontificate.

BTW, for the 3rd time (how many others have started counting how many times certain questions are asked of you???): What other usernames have you used on this website?

[Guest johnny_cat]

Yet, what did this God need prior to becoming God, and given his potential to make such a drastic change in being, what is going to prevent such a being from drastically changing again? For it certainly cannot be something inherent within him.

If God the Father is the same kind of being as Jesus, we must ask the same question of Jesus. What did Jesus "need" need prior to becoming God, and given his potential to make such a drastic change in being, what is going to prevent such a being from drastically changing again? For it certainly cannot be something inherent within him.

If Christ, being God, could become man, what prevents the Father from having done the same? Christ's becoming man has nothing to do with His needing anything to be God.

Again, if God is who he says that he is, then there is no potential for him to be anything other than he is. He said that the mortal man not only had the potential to change, but that he actually did change, into something other than he was.

Given this logic, Jesus could not have been a man at any point.

What Joseph failed to do, though, was to take into consideration what scripture has to say about God's immutability, and then proceeded to violate his aseity, as well, by formulating a story about God needing assistance in the transformation. Then when one factors in laws, wives, physicality, etc., into what it takes to remain God, one comes to the conclusion that this God is not really God at all. For God is not imperfect that he should need anything to be.

God needs no assistance in transformation from God to human. Did Jesus need assistance in becoming human?

So, while I thank you for bringing to attention Joseph Smith's King Follett Sermon, it only served to further prove just how imperfect the LDS God really is.

Nonsense.

[T-Shirt]

PD1,

Let me see if I understand where you are coming from and where you are going wiith this. 

Is it your belief that God, the omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient being, for trillions and trillions of years and beyond (whatever eternity is) existed all by himself for all this time and then for some reason, six thousand years ago, he decided to create this earth and us?  Then, after this earth ends, he will take more than half of those he created and lock them up in hell for eternity, and the others he will allow to live with him for the rest of eternity.  What then?  What is the purpose for all this?  For all these trillions of years prior to the creation of the earth, was God still God?  What was he God of?  What purpose did it serve him?  I am interested to know your answers to these questions.

Thanks,

T-Shirt

T-S, what do your questions have to do with the subject? You're not trying to derail an otherwise interesting discussion are you? If not, then please address the topic of God's needs. Thank you.

PD1,

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and asuming that you are here to discuss beliefs and not to just mock. You seem to feel that you have a good grasp on what LDS believe, and I am freely admitting that I do not know what you believe and so I have asked you some relevant questions on the topic regarding your beliefs so I don't have to guess. I find it helpful to discuss these things if I have a better understanding of what the other party believes about the topic. Is that fair enough? Will you answer the questions?

T-Shirt

[PD1]

Even though LDS believe God has a body and may have been a man (as a savior like Jesus was ) we certainly do not view him LIKE is. He is wholly different and nothing like we are as mortal men.

Another thing I wonder about.  You believe Jesus was God and that he became a man.  Why did he do so?  And why does he still lave a body.  Just take that one step further and view God the Father as a spirit creating corporeal beings.  Then he did the same thing Jesus did.  That is why he has a body and got one even though he may not have needed one.  And in your theology the Father and the Son are of the same substance so in some  way the Father must experience what the Son did but would not have before that.  IN your theology Jesus brought something to the table holy unique in the nature of God prior to the point Jesus was a man.  Explain that for me.

If D&C 132 does not apply to God

[T-Shirt]

PD1,

So, can I expect an answer or not?

T-Shirt

[PD1]

Does God save and damn his creations before they are in existenec?

Ephesians 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

If God does not need anyting then why did he create us?

Revelation 4:11 "Worthy art Thou, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for Thou didst create all things, and because of Thy will they existed, and were created."

Colossians 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created by Him and for Him.

What was God doing before he created us and this universe?

John 17:5 "And now, glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.

John 17:24 "Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.

Does God make the rules that govern this universe?

Hebrews 3:4 For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.

Ephesians 3:9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things;

Does he exist within those rules?

Daniel 9:14 "Therefore, the LORD has kept the calamity in store and brought it on us; for the LORD our God is righteous with respect to all His deeds which He has done, but we have not obeyed His voice.

Matthew 5:48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Does this God sovereignly act on His own?

Isaiah 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, But formed it to be inhabited), "I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Isaiah 43:13 "Even from eternity I am He; And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?"

Let's start there and see if this wholly non contingent being is worthy of worship.

Psalm 18:3 I call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised, And I am saved from my enemies.

Revelation 4:11 "Worthy art Thou, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for Thou didst create all things, and because of Thy will they existed, and were created."

[PD1]

Thats the age old question PD1.

Chicken or egg.

God Is.

I Am that I Am.

To be or not to be. That is the quetion.

Not even the big bang theory says the universe was made from nothing.

God is matter. He just is.

Sorry, but that is not what God says.

John 1:3 All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Now, who's right? The "big bangers," or God?

[Zakuska]

Matthew 5:48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Why would God give a command for something that we could never accomplish?

[PD1]

I refer you to the scripture.

Isa. 29: 16

16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter

[YH8]

PD1,

I guess you kind of gave some answers. Unfortunately, some scripture is interpreted differently by some people.

Another question from somebody that doesn't think very hard . . .

Do you believe the Bible to be CILC (Clear, Infallible, Literal, and Complete)?

[YH8]

Thats the age old question PD1.

Chicken or egg.

God Is.

I Am that I Am.

To be or not to be.  That is the quetion.

Not even the big bang theory says the universe was made from nothing.

God is matter.  He just is.

Sorry, but that is not what God says.

John 1:3 All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Now, who's right? The "big bangers," or God?

Any chance there could be some things that are, and that didn't come into being?

[YH8]

Your questions have been answered, as well as have been everyone else's.

Intellectual honesty, please.

[PD1]

PD1,

I really want to answer your questions, but I first want to understand you and see what common ground we may have. I will not pretend to know what you believe, so will you answer the questions I asked earlier?

Thanks,

T-Shirt

T-S, it is not necessary to answer a grocery list of questions that are unrelated to the topic to understand not only where I'm coming from, but what I'm trying to divulge from the LDS here. For I have already written dozens of posts in that regard. Now, if you really want to know what I believe about this subject, then please afford yourself a little time, and go back through the posts. And when you're done, please join us in the conversation proper. Thank you.

[PD1]

PD1,

Thanks for your thoughts. So I can better understand your beliefs are you willing to answer my earlier questions?

Thanks,

T-Shirt

Indeed, I will answer them, when they are relevant to the conversation. Right now, I've got a whole series of questions that I've been asking, some of which some of the LDS have attempted to answer, and I commend them. Perhaps if you would attempt to do the same, your off-the-beaten-path questions will be answered indirectly. I wish you well.