The Polynesians (Cumr) Reach America

[Rajah Manchou]

It's not as expected, but ancient DNA confirms the Book of Mormon to be a historical document, at least for those willing to accept a different paradigm.

The most recent ancient DNA research confirms that Polynesians (known in early history as the Cumr or Kumara) settled in a geography that matches 100% with the internal map of the Book of Mormon. Science accepts that these Cumr "Polynesians" traveled as far as South America during the Book of Mormon time period. 

Open the mind (just a little bit) to see how the Book of Mormon fits with the most recent ancient New World DNA research.

https://insitome.libsyn.com/ancient-dna-and-china (starting at 00:31:34)

Spencer: "These are literally the greatest voyages in the human journey...in terms of sheer audacity. The voyages out into the Pacific are literally like a Mars settlement mission. You got a large number of people, you got your entire kit of agricultural products, you've got living pigs, you've got breadfruit...because you know you're not coming back."

Razib: "We're talking about the Polynesians and Austronesians, we talking about ancient China, but these (Cumr/Kumara) people who eventually reach Madagascar (Moroni and the Comoro Islands) and also Easter Island by Chile...but the Polynesians probably did have some contact with South America..

Spencer: Oh we know that they did...we know that they did...

Razib: So obviously there was contact with these people, but they originally started out in coastal south-eastern China.

The Book of Mormon narrative plays out in the Iron Age history of the Polynesians and Austronesians, known as the Cumr and Kumara people. The earliest Polynesian cultrure spans SE Asia and South America,. 

Book of Mormon geography problems solved.

Edited June 6, 2020 by Rajah Manchou

[Robert F. Smith]

Rush Spencer Wells IV is a geneticist, anthropologist, author, entrepreneur, adjunct professor at the University of Texas at Austin, and co-owner of Antone's, an iconic nightclub in Austin, Texas. He co-hosts The Insight podcast with Razib Khan. Wikipedia

[Meadowchik]

I haven't looked at your sources yet, but you've made an error in your argument. A geographical fit supported by ancient DNA, if one did exist, would not "confirm the Book of Mormon to be a historical document." The most you could say under those hypothetical conditions is that they are consistent with particular historical Book of Mormon claims.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

...................Book of Mormon geography problems solved.

Not sure it is that simple.  The Insight podcast was interesting, and broad in scope.  The James Fullmer layout helpful (I watched a couple of short videos).  However, the issue seems to me far more complex than appears in these surface impressions.  For example, years ago in L.A., when I took my first class in Mexican art from a non-Mormon woman (Mexican-American) who had a PhD in anthropology, she and other scholars obviously assumed that the art of early Mexico was heavily influenced by Chinese and Southeast Asian culture.  And she explained why graphically, and in great detail.  What she had to say did not differ in detail from what I had read by other non-Mormon scholars such as David Kelley and Michael Coe.  The diffusion was obvious.

Yet, one could not demonstrate when or how such diffusion actually took place, and that is still the case.  The same applies to Polynesian contact with South America.  We have compelling reasons for assuming that it actually took place, but we cannot find the direct evidence.

The other question is, how does a 16th century author come into possession of the requisite knowledge or manuscript?

[Rajah Manchou]

11 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I haven't looked at your sources yet, but you've made an error in your argument. A geographical fit supported by ancient DNA, if one did exist, would not "confirm the Book of Mormon to be a historical document." The most you could say under those hypothetical conditions is that they are consistent with particular historical Book of Mormon claims.

What I'm saying is that an exact match with a limited geography, plus supporting ancient DNA, plus an association between what was known in early history about the Cumr, the Seres and the Rahmans demonstrates that the author(s) of the Book of Mormon were referencing what was known of the geography, peoples, and history of Southeast Asia. There are a number of examples of this, but I'll leave two:

(1) When two Chinese explorers visited the Cumr in 250 AD, they recorded the historical account given by these people that their founder, a foreign merchant, had been given a divine dream wherein he was directed to sail to the new land. Upon waking the next morning, the merchant found divine instruments (arrows) to support his journey. Like Lehi, the merchant boarded a ship which was guided by divine winds to the land of Komoriyya, a geography that matches the internal map of the Book of Mormon.

(2) According to the historical accounts, there was a great warrior king who established the first city states on the peninsula, including the capital of Srah that was established around the same time as Zarahemla, in the middle part of the peninsula along a large river that ran north to south. That warrior was named Maroni.

Nearly all of the earliest historical accounts of this peninsula report that it was the dwelling place of the Sons of Moses, and a group of Rechabites who were carried by God from Jerusalem to the peninsula in the 6th century BC. The author(s) of the Book of Mormon were referencing what was known of the geography, peoples, and history of these lost "Israelites" who converted to Christianity while living in isolation on the Golden Peninsula, or the Island of the Blessed. 

[mfbukowski]

13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Rush Spencer Wells IV is a geneticist, anthropologist, author, entrepreneur, adjunct professor at the University of Texas at Austin, and co-owner of Antone's, an iconic nightclub in Austin, Texas. He co-hosts The Insight podcast with Razib Khan. Wikipedia

UT Austin is a main center for Neopragmatism.

It could all actually happen.

All the guys I admire who are still alive

  are at or have been at UTA it seems 

[Rajah Manchou]

13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Rush Spencer Wells IV is a geneticist, anthropologist, author, entrepreneur, adjunct professor at the University of Texas at Austin, and co-owner of Antone's, an iconic nightclub in Austin, Texas. He co-hosts The Insight podcast with Razib Khan. Wikipedia

I know Wells from his excellent book The Journey of Man.

For 10 years he also "led The Genographic Project, undertaken by the National Geographic Society, IBM, and the Waitt Foundation, which aimed to create a picture of how our ancestors populated the planet by analyzing DNA samples from around the world. The project is credited with creating the personal genomics industry."

 

[Rajah Manchou]

11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The other question is, how does a 16th century author come into possession of the requisite knowledge or manuscript?

My working hypothesis is that the author was drawing from apocryphal accounts of Rechabites on the Island of the Blessed.

The Narrative of Zosimus and the Book of Mormon

"This article describes the textual history and the contents of the Narrative of Zosimus and then shows certain similarities between the Book of Mormon and the Narrative. I recognize that the approach followed here is not exhaustive. For example, the Narrative of Zosimus contains rich Tree of Life imagery; it is also a good example of Judeo-Christian apocalyptic literature. On points such as these, the Book of Mormon and the Narrative of Zosimus should be further compared to each other, as well as with the vast bodies of symbolic and apocalyptic literatures. Those further studies, however, will have to wait until much more research has been done. For the present, less ambitious undertakings will have to suffice."

At some point, Slavonic authors/translators began calling the Rechabites by the name Rahmans, to link them to the real world geography of Rahma, on or near the Malay Peninsula. I believe the Book of Mormon author/translator was working within this tradition. 

Edited June 7, 2020 by Rajah Manchou

[Meadowchik]

6 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

What I'm saying is that an exact match with a limited geography, plus supporting ancient DNA, plus an association between what was known in early history about the Cumr, the Seres and the Rahmans demonstrates that the author(s) of the Book of Mormon were referencing what was known of the geography, peoples, and history of Southeast Asia. There are a number of examples of this, but I'll leave two:
 

No, such a (hypothetical) situation does not demonstrate that the Book of Mormon was referencing those people.

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

No, such a (hypothetical) situation does not demonstrate that the Book of Mormon was referencing those people.

Of course a hypothetical situation does not demonstrate anything.

You'd first have to weigh the evidence that is provided to support the hypothesis.

What historical people are referenced in the History of the Rechabites, and all the apocryphal literature that spun off from that text? 

Edited June 7, 2020 by Rajah Manchou

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Of course a hypothetical situation does not demonstrate anything.

You'd first have to weigh the evidence that is provided to support the hypothesis.

What historical people are referenced in the History of the Rechabites, and all the apocryphal literature that spun off from that text? 

I was not using "hypothetical" for my argument. I put it in parenthesis intentionally, just to be clear that I was not going to treat (quoting you) "an exact match with a limited geography, plus supporting ancient DNA, plus an association between what was known in early history about the Cumr, the Seres and the Rahmans" as given fact. 

You've missed the point.

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

I was not using "hypothetical" for my argument. I put it in parenthesis intentionally, just to be clear that I was not going to treat (quoting you) "an exact match with a limited geography, plus supporting ancient DNA, plus an association between what was known in early history about the Cumr, the Seres and the Rahmans" as given fact. 

You've missed the point.

You haven't fully heard the point I am trying to make.

It goes deeper into recent Ancient DNA analysis that Razib Khan (from the podcast in the OP) has posted related to the Malabar Jews and Knanaya Christians diaspora in the Indian Ocean.

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2020/05/11/west-asian-ancestry-in-knanaya-greater-than-nasrani-which-is-greater-than-mappila

I don't expect everybody to be interested in this topic long enough to follow the arguments or read the links.

[PacMan]

18 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

(1) When two Chinese explorers visited the Cumr in 250 AD, they recorded the historical account given by these people that their founder, a foreign merchant, had been given a divine dream wherein he was directed to sail to the new land. Upon waking the next morning, the merchant found divine instruments (arrows) to support his journey. Like Lehi, the merchant boarded a ship which was guided by divine winds to the land of Komoriyya, a geography that matches the internal map of the Book of Mormon.

Would you share the original sources for this?

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, PacMan said:

Would you share the original sources for this?

The oldest account dates to the middle of the third century AD, and was recorded by a Chinese official named Kang Tai who was the first to visit the lands known to the Chinese as Funan and Zhenla.

We don't have Kang Tai's original report, and there are several different copies with a number of variations. But the core story is: a foreigner named Huntian [1] of Mo-fu [2] He was a staunch devotee of a foreign god who was pleased with his piety. He dreamt that the god gave him a divine bow and asked him to take to sea in a trading vessel. In the morning he went to the temple of the god and found an arrow/bow. Then he embarked on a trading vessel, and the god changed the course of wind in such a manner that he came to Funan/Zhenla.

The first translation of this account into a European language was published in the mid-1700s by Joseph de Guignes. Guignes maintained that the Chinese nation had originated in Egyptian colonization, an opinion to which, in spite of every refutation, he obstinately clung. He published a number of articles arguing that Egyptian hieroglyphs and Chinese characters were related, one deriving from the other. (source) Guignes' book the General History of the Huns was very popular in the late 18th century and early 19th century. Also note that in his book, Guignes refers to a group of oriental Jews called the Nephthalites. (source)

------------

[1] Poree-Maspero remarks that the name of the hero most probably represents a mythic theme transformed into a historical account since “hun, or kun, designates ‘troubled waters’ a chaos, and hui has the sense of a ‘river which has overflowed its banks’ or ‘disorder, confusion’” Moreover, it might also be noted that the alternate term for hui is tian (or dian, chen), which connotes the “settlement” of a kingdom. (source)

[2] Alternatively, Jian, Kia or Ki. The location of the foreign merchant's homeland can not be identified. Some have proposed a point further south on the Malay Peninsula, South India, Mesopotamia or Egypt. (source)
 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Rajah Manchou

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Rajah Manchou said:

..................
The first translation of this account into a European language was published in the mid-1700s by Joseph de Guignes. Guignes maintained that the Chinese nation had originated in Egyptian colonization, an opinion to which, in spite of every refutation, he obstinately clung. He published a number of articles arguing that Egyptian hieroglyphs and Chinese characters were related, one deriving from the other. (source) Guignes' book the General History of the Huns was very popular in the late 18th century and early 19th century. Also note that in his book, Guignes refers to a group of oriental Jews called the Nephthalites. (source)

Is it possible that Jesuits posted earlier reports to the Vatican, or that other Renaissance explorers in China or along the Silk Road provided details to the Medicis?  Even earlier in the great library of Muslim Baghdad, during the golden age of Islam (before the Crusades) -- they gathered all knowledge.

1 hour ago, Rajah Manchou said:

------------......................

[2] Alternatively, Jian, Kia or Ki. The location of the foreign merchant's homeland can not be identified. Some have proposed a point further south on the Malay Peninsula, South India, Mesopotamia or Egypt. (source)

I note your short chronological notes at the end of your Evernotes, but it would be helpful if you kept a skeletal running chronology throughout (at least in the headings).

Dharma-raja "Righteous-king" as a title is same as Hebrew Malkî-Ṣedeq (Gen 14:18, Psalm 110:4, Hebrews 5:6, 7:17), and Sargon, King of Assyria (Isaiah 20:1) = Akkadian Šarrum-ken, Šarru-kin “Legitimate-King.” 

[PacMan]

2 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

The oldest account dates to the middle of the third century AD, and was recorded by a Chinese official named Kang Tai who was the first to visit the lands known to the Chinese as Funan and Zhenla.

We don't have Kang Tai's original report, and there are several different copies with a number of variations. But the core story is: a foreigner named Huntian [1] of Mo-fu [2] He was a staunch devotee of a foreign god who was pleased with his piety. He dreamt that the god gave him a divine bow and asked him to take to sea in a trading vessel. In the morning he went to the temple of the god and found an arrow/bow. Then he embarked on a trading vessel, and the god changed the course of wind in such a manner that he came to Funan/Zhenla.

The first translation of this account into a European language was published in the mid-1700s by Joseph de Guignes. Guignes maintained that the Chinese nation had originated in Egyptian colonization, an opinion to which, in spite of every refutation, he obstinately clung. He published a number of articles arguing that Egyptian hieroglyphs and Chinese characters were related, one deriving from the other. (source) Guignes' book the General History of the Huns was very popular in the late 18th century and early 19th century. Also note that in his book, Guignes refers to a group of oriental Jews called the Nephthalites. (source)

------------

[1] Poree-Maspero remarks that the name of the hero most probably represents a mythic theme transformed into a historical account since “hun, or kun, designates ‘troubled waters’ a chaos, and hui has the sense of a ‘river which has overflowed its banks’ or ‘disorder, confusion’” Moreover, it might also be noted that the alternate term for hui is tian (or dian, chen), which connotes the “settlement” of a kingdom. (source)

[2] Alternatively, Jian, Kia or Ki. The location of the foreign merchant's homeland can not be identified. Some have proposed a point further south on the Malay Peninsula, South India, Mesopotamia or Egypt. (source)
 

Interesting, but seems like a stretch to have any relation to Lehi. 

[Rajah Manchou]

2 hours ago, PacMan said:

Interesting, but seems like a stretch to have any relation to Lehi. 

Curious as to why you think it is a stretch.

If you were presented with a 250 AD Polynesian text stating that foreign merchant received a vision wherein he was directed to board a ship that was guided by divine winds to the New World. Would you think it a stretch to see a relationship to Lehi? 

[Rajah Manchou]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Is it possible that Jesuits posted earlier reports to the Vatican, or that other Renaissance explorers in China or along the Silk Road provided details to the Medicis?  Even earlier in the great library of Muslim Baghdad, during the golden age of Islam (before the Crusades) -- they gathered all knowledge.

The Jesuits certainly had access to the Chinese histories containing the accounts, they supported the translations. 

All Jesuit knowledge of the orient in the 17th century flowed to Athanasius Kircher, who took the lead in proposing that oriental (and Mesoamerican) culture originated with an Egyptian colony in Siam/Burma. Kircher believed that a Hebrew Egyptian priest fled to Cochin China in the 6th century BC. The Book of Mormon internal map aligns 100% with the geography of Cochin China.

Let's not forget that Kircher also claimed to be working on a translation of an ancient text supposedly written by an Egyptian Jew named Nephi.

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Rajah Manchou

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Is it possible that Jesuits posted earlier reports to the Vatican, or that other Renaissance explorers in China or along the Silk Road provided details to the Medicis?  Even earlier in the great library of Muslim Baghdad, during the golden age of Islam (before the Crusades) -- they gathered all knowledge.

I note your short chronological notes at the end of your Evernotes, but it would be helpful if you kept a skeletal running chronology throughout (at least in the headings).

Dharma-raja "Righteous-king" as a title is same as Hebrew Malkî-Ṣedeq (Gen 14:18, Psalm 110:4, Hebrews 5:6, 7:17), and Sargon, King of Assyria (Isaiah 20:1) = Akkadian Šarrum-ken, Šarru-kin “Legitimate-King.” 

My gosh.

It's coming together.

Unbelievable. The whole thing is just crazy enough to actually be true.

Talk about "preposterous" !

 

[mfbukowski]

On 6/6/2020 at 9:41 PM, Rajah Manchou said:

At some point, Slavonic authors/translators began calling the Rechabites by the name Rahmans, to link them to the real world geography of Rahma, on or near the Malay Peninsula. I believe the Book of Mormon author/translator was working within this tradition

My family name is directly linked to Bukovina and means " son of the man from the land of beech trees."

"Buk" = Beech= "book"

Beech wood, cut into thin plates, was used to write upon, and bound together with rings. The beech tree is often also seen as the tree of life, and used in fertility ceremonies

There is also a town near Krakow and Zakopane in Poland named Bukovina, in the Tatras mountains, though of course the large region with that name is in Roumania 

Edited June 8, 2020 by mfbukowski

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

............................................

All Jesuit knowledge of the orient in the 17th century flowed to Athanasius Kircher, who took the lead in proposing that oriental (and Mesoamerican) culture originated with an Egyptian colony in Siam/Burma. Kircher believed that a Hebrew Egyptian priest fled to Cochin China in the 6th century BC. The Book of Mormon internal map aligns 100% with the geography of Cochin China..........................

Reminds me of the actual exploits of OSS detachment 101 allying with the Kachin in 1943, and made into a movie starring Frank Sinatra in 1959, "Never So Few."  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_So_Few

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Reminds me of the actual exploits of OSS detachment 101 allying with the Kachin in 1943, and made into a movie starring Frank Sinatra in 1959, "Never So Few."  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_So_Few

Not exactly related, but since the Kachin share some history with Tibet. We talked about Donald Lopez before, and his interest in the similarities between Joseph Smith's Golden Plates and the treasure text tradition of Tibet. 

Turns out a Jesuit 'discovered' his own golden treasure text 100 years before the Book of Mormon was published.

Dispelling the Darkness: A Jesuit’s Quest for the Soul of Tibet

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Not exactly related, but since the Kachin share some history with Tibet. We talked about Donald Lopez before, and his interest in the similarities between Joseph Smith's Golden Plates and the treasure text tradition of Tibet. 

Turns out a Jesuit 'discovered' his own golden treasure text 100 years before the Book of Mormon was published.

Dispelling the Darkness: A Jesuit’s Quest for the Soul of Tibet

Sounds as though Father Desideri sought to do what outsider Padmasambhava had done in Tibet centuries earlier -- in the latter case translating Buddhist texts into Tibetan, and thus successfully combining the Tibetan Bon religion with Bhuddism.

For a change of pace, have you ever considered the effect Leibniz may have had on any aspect of the Book of Mormon?  A polymath and polyglot like Leibniz (he was a scholar of Hebrew, Sanskrit, and Chinese, among others) would have been aware of some of these very exotic connections.  He even met with Spinoza (a Sephardic Jew) at The Hague in 1676, and Spinoza was a "god-intoxicated man."

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

For a change of pace, have you ever considered the effect Leibniz may have had on any aspect of the Book of Mormon?  A polymath and polyglot like Leibniz (he was a scholar of Hebrew, Sanskrit, and Chinese, among others) would have been aware of some of these very exotic connections.  He even met with Spinoza (a Sephardic Jew) at The Hague in 1676, and Spinoza was a "god-intoxicated man."

Very odd you would mention this at this moment, I have been thinking about ties between Leibniz and Pragmatism and analytical philosophy a lot recently and how the ideas fit with our beliefs, and therefore the BOM!

This is getting spookier and spookier, and of course the timing is almost right for EMODE.

Definitely spooky in more ways than one!

[Rajah Manchou]

12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

For a change of pace, have you ever considered the effect Leibniz may have had on any aspect of the Book of Mormon?  A polymath and polyglot like Leibniz (he was a scholar of Hebrew, Sanskrit, and Chinese, among others) would have been aware of some of these very exotic connections.  He even met with Spinoza (a Sephardic Jew) at The Hague in 1676, and Spinoza was a "god-intoxicated man."

It is pure speculation, but given the similarities between other "ancient texts" that were discovered and translated by a number of orientalists and figurists of the eighteenth century, I certainly think there's influence there.

They all were convinced that oriental civilization came from Egypt, and that oriental texts would reveal an original theology that predated the Hebrew scriptures. The Book of Mormon is one of several that were discovered and translated. Kircher, Swedenborg, Ilive, Ramsay, Leibniz, Holwell, Desideri, etc