The LDS Concept of the term "Christian"

[pogi]

4 minutes ago, Attalus said:

Maybe.  There are a lot of stupid, evil laws.

And yet,

“We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.”

 

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, Attalus said:

I read it as I agree those are the rules of the board and I was thinking that if I violated those board rules I agreed that I would or could be censored by those who control the board.  I never agreed to never disobey a board rule.

There is no dishonesty involved here and I am not sneaking.  And I am also not arguing with any of the board rules.  The people in charge here are responsible for the decisions they make here just as I am responsible for the decisions I make in my life.

 

One more question...just curious, not trying to teach, preach, or persuade...

If they ban you again, will you try and come back?

Edited December 20, 2019 by Calm

[Navidad]

On 12/19/2019 at 4:01 PM, Bernard Gui said:

Could you provide your personal understanding of what the terms Christian and Evangelical mean?

Hi Bernard: Sorry for the delay in responding to your request. I believe a Christian in the Dispensation of Grace is someone who believes that Christ is the Son of God, that He was sent to earth as a baby, lived, died, rose again and ascended into heaven as an atonement (paying the price) for our sin. To be a Christian, one must  then act on that belief by repentance and acceptance of that same atonement in his or her life. I don't believe the fancy words are important, but the general intent must be there.  A Christian most often then seeks out a church home where he or she is comfortable with the worship, fellowship, and non-essential doctrines that most often come with church affiliation. A Christian doesn't have to do this, but most often does and then becomes a member of a branch of Christianity in which she finds nurture. I believe there are a host of ancillary non-essential doctrines specific to branches of Christianity that may be strongly held, but that those should never be confused with the essentials of the Christian experience. I remember well that one board member voted against me as the prospective headmaster of a Mennonite school because he thought my peace stand was not strong enough. That is a great example of a Mennonite non-essential belief that is seen as essential by some, perhaps many Mennonites, not for salvation, but for leadership in the group.

One more thing in this regard, I am not a practitioner of what some of my LDS friends term a "binary" Christianity.  This is a term used to indicate that non-LDS Christians believe the Christians are going to heaven and everyone else is going to Hell. I have an expansive broad view of God's mercy and judgment. I truly believe there is a wideness in God's mercy. A song by that name is very popular in the non-LDS Christian hymnody. Some of its verses are as follows:

There’s a wideness in God’s mercy,
Like the wideness of the sea;
There’s a kindness in His justice,
Which is more than liberty.

 

There is welcome for the sinner,
And more graces for the good;
There is mercy with the Savior;
There is healing in His blood.

There is grace enough for thousands
Of new worlds as great as this;
There is room for fresh creations
In that upper home of bliss.

For the love of God is broader
Than the measure of our mind;
And the heart of the Eternal
Is most wonderfully kind.

There is plentiful redemption
In the blood that has been shed;
There is joy for all the members
In the sorrows of the Head.

But we make His love too narrow
By false limits of our own;
And we magnify His strictness
With a zeal He will not own.

Was there ever kinder shepherd
Half so gentle, half so sweet,
As the Savior who would have us
Come and gather at His feet?

Now on to Evangelical. The term Evangelical as I have understood it all my life refers to a subset of Christianity that has nothing to do with group (branch) affiliation. It is often termed "trans-denominational." There were no Evangelicals, identified as I am using the term until the late 1940's. The Evangelical movement within Christianity was a reaction to both of the other major components of Christianity which predated the Evangelical movement, that of Fundamentalism and Mainstream Christianity. None of these tie to any particular denomination. There are Lutheran Fundamentalists, Evangelicals, and Mainstreamers. There are Catholic Fundamentalists, Evangelicals, and Mainstreamers. I could and do make the case that there are LDS Fundamentalists (not to confuse with the term referring to polygamists), Evangelicals, and Mainstreamers as well. To save space I will only list the characteristics as I see them of Evangelicalism as started and codified in the ministries of Billy Graham, John Stott, Harold Ockenga, Carl F. H. Henry, and others. To be sure many find the roots of Evangelicalism back into the 18th and 19th centuries. I don't dispute that, I simply choose to focus on the twentieth century because that is where I came in contact with it and when it exploded into prominence. There are also other similar terms and categories such as charismatic and Pentecostal. These are terms that transcend denominations as well. Evangelicals stress:

Correct Biblical Interpretation - The Study of Hermeneutics - Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth. It is incorrect to say as  recent reporter I read did, that Evangelicals believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. A literal interpretation is important where appropriate, but it is only one of the means of understanding the Scripture. 

Engagement with the Culture as opposed to separation or encystment (cocooning to use Hardy's term) from it. 

Stressing the Positive - Defining who we are by what we are for; not what we are against

Stressing the need for Education, Learning, and Intellectual Engagement - Many Evangelical colleges, universities, and seminary sprang up in the United States. Evangelicals enrolled in fine universities as part of the intent to engage culture. 

A focus on Para-Church Engagement - Evangelicals founded many non-denominational groups and ministries for the purpose of expanding beyond denominational perspectives and limits - The Navigators, many mission associations, the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, Intervarsity Christian Fellowship, Teen Challenge, World Vision, and many others. These groups provided opportunities for Christians from many different groups to come together to minister.

Freedom in Worship Styles - There are a variety of worship styles and opportunities in Evangelical circles. There is a focus on Bible teaching, but the methods vary.

Social Issues - Evangelicals are often confusing to those seeking to stereotype Christians. They don't fit into narrow categorization. There is a great variety of focus and differences of opinions among Evangelicals on many social topics and on social justice in general. I am an Evangelical and have flourished in the US public school environment. I value diversity of thought and do all I can not to stereotype. 

I hope this helps answer your questions. I am a Christian first, an Evangelical second, and a Mennonite third. Any movement I might experience in the second and third, I would not characterize as a conversion. I would only characterize a conversion if I moved from Christianity to another non-Christian faith. I am open to answering any other questions. I have a burden to help my LDS Christian friends better understand the non-LDS Christian community, especially the distinction between Fundamentalists, Evangelicals, and Mainstream non-LDS Christians. 

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi Bernard: Sorry for the delay in responding to your request. I believe a Christian in the Dispensation of Grace is someone who believes that Christ is the Son of God, that He was sent to earth as a baby, lived, died, rose again and ascended into heaven as an atonement (paying the price) for our sin. To be a Christian, one must  then act on that belief by repentance and acceptance of that same atonement in his or her life. I don't believe the fancy words are important, but the general intent must be there.  A Christian most often then seeks out a church home where he or she is comfortable with the worship, fellowship, and non-essential doctrines that most often come with church affiliation. A Christian doesn't have to do this, but most often does and then becomes a member of a branch of Christianity in which she finds nurture. I believe there are a host of ancillary non-essential doctrines specific to branches of Christianity that may be strongly held, but that those should never be confused with the essentials of the Christian experience. I remember well that one board member voted against me as the prospective headmaster of a Mennonite school because he thought my peace stand was not strong enough. That is a great example of a Mennonite non-essential belief that is seen as essential by some, perhaps many Mennonites, not for salvation, but for leadership in the group.

One more thing in this regard, I am not a practitioner of what some of my LDS friends term a "binary" Christianity.  This is a term used to indicate that non-LDS Christians believe the Christians are going to heaven and everyone else is going to Hell. I have an expansive broad view of God's mercy and judgment. I truly believe there is a wideness in God's mercy. A song by that name is very popular in the non-LDS Christian hymnody. Some of its verses are as follows:

There’s a wideness in God’s mercy,
Like the wideness of the sea;
There’s a kindness in His justice,
Which is more than liberty.

 

There is welcome for the sinner,
And more graces for the good;
There is mercy with the Savior;
There is healing in His blood.

There is grace enough for thousands
Of new worlds as great as this;
There is room for fresh creations
In that upper home of bliss.

For the love of God is broader
Than the measure of our mind;
And the heart of the Eternal
Is most wonderfully kind.

There is plentiful redemption
In the blood that has been shed;
There is joy for all the members
In the sorrows of the Head.

But we make His love too narrow
By false limits of our own;
And we magnify His strictness
With a zeal He will not own.

Was there ever kinder shepherd
Half so gentle, half so sweet,
As the Savior who would have us
Come and gather at His feet?

Now on to Evangelical. The term Evangelical as I have understood it all my life refers to a subset of Christianity that has nothing to do with group (branch) affiliation. It is often termed "trans-denominational." There were no Evangelicals, identified as I am using the term until the late 1940's. The Evangelical movement within Christianity was a reaction to both of the other major components of Christianity which predated the Evangelical movement, that of Fundamentalism and Mainstream Christianity. None of these tie to any particular denomination. There are Lutheran Fundamentalists, Evangelicals, and Mainstreamers. There are Catholic Fundamentalists, Evangelicals, and Mainstreamers. I could and do make the case that there are LDS Fundamentalists (not to confuse with the term referring to polygamists), Evangelicals, and Mainstreamers as well. To save space I will only list the characteristics as I see them of Evangelicalism as started and codified in the ministries of Billy Graham, John Stott, Harold Ockenga, Carl F. H. Henry, and others. To be sure many find the roots of Evangelicalism back into the 18th and 19th centuries. I don't dispute that, I simply choose to focus on the twentieth century because that is where I came in contact with it and when it exploded into prominence. There are also other similar terms and categories such as charismatic and Pentecostal. These are terms that transcend denominations as well. Evangelicals stress:

Correct Biblical Interpretation - The Study of Hermeneutics - Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth. It is incorrect to say as  recent reporter I read did, that Evangelicals believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. A literal interpretation is important where appropriate, but it is only one of the means of understanding the Scripture. 

Engagement with the Culture as opposed to separation or encystment (cocooning to use Hardy's term) from it. 

Stressing the Positive - Defining who we are by what we are for; not what we are against

Stressing the need for Education, Learning, and Intellectual Engagement - Many Evangelical colleges, universities, and seminary sprang up in the United States. Evangelicals enrolled in fine universities as part of the intent to engage culture. 

A focus on Para-Church Engagement - Evangelicals founded many non-denominational groups and ministries for the purpose of expanding beyond denominational perspectives and limits - The Navigators, many mission associations, the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, Intervarsity Christian Fellowship, Teen Challenge, World Vision, and many others. These groups provided opportunities for Christians from many different groups to come together to minister.

Freedom in Worship Styles - There are a variety of worship styles and opportunities in Evangelical circles. There is a focus on Bible teaching, but the methods vary.

Social Issues - Evangelicals are often confusing to those seeking to stereotype Christians. They don't fit into narrow categorization. There is a great variety of focus and differences of opinions among Evangelicals on many social topics and on social justice in general. I am an Evangelical and have flourished in the US public school environment. I value diversity of thought and do all I can not to stereotype. 

I hope this helps answer your questions. I am a Christian first, an Evangelical second, and a Mennonite third. Any movement I might experience in the second and third, I would not characterize as a conversion. I would only characterize a conversion if I moved from Christianity to another non-Christian faith. I am open to answering any other questions. I have a burden to help my LDS Christian friends better understand the non-LDS Christian community, especially the distinction between Fundamentalists, Evangelicals, and Mainstream non-LDS Christians. 

Thank you for the thoughtful and informative reply.

To me a Christian is one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God and is committed to make conscientious efforts to keep His commandments which are revealed in ancient and modern scriptures. From your statements above, for what it’s worth, in my book you appear to be a Christian. 
 

Those are nice sentiments in the hymn. I agree with much of it.  Do you think Jesus has set any limits on us?
 

Your explanation of Evangelicalism is essentially how I understand it. I have thought it is a loose but useful umbrella term for certain kinds of Christian believers. I am confused by the term non-denominational, though. Seems to me when people get together and start a church a new denomination is formed.That’s how the various denominations started out.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Robert F. Smith]

Here is a Roman Catholic Bishop dealing very thoughtfully with the question of inclusivity and tolerance for diverse points of view: