Clearing the Financial Record

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

Because financial records isn't publicly disclosed... even though they been audited by the US government and by an audit committee who are not associated with the Church as employees or General Authorities. You suspect its supposed to mean a scandel has already happened and that they are covering it up? Sorry, but thats only conspiracy theory. You don't have to approve of how the church legally and rightfully chooses to conducts its business, but I think its stupid to suggest the church needs to "come clean" as if you know they have done something dirty, when we all know you accually have NO IDEA to asume anything. Grow up and come back when you guys have something to accuse us of before acusing us of it.

[tapped]

Kosh, Others:

there's an old saying...If you pay the fiddler, you get to choose the tunes.

That's why there is No "truely' independent auditing being done or possible.

the church should divulge a summary of finances, for a few reasons:

to end wild speculation & cynicism

to let the members (who actually earned the money in the first place) have input on priorities.

when you give the people who financially support an org to give their ideas/feedback/controls ... that allows them to 'buy into' the deal to a greater extent. As it is now, members have little responsibility in the process. regardless that some people are comfortable with that way of doing things (by being beat to death with the Mantra of only upward accountability), some are not.

[Stormin' Mormon]

Last year, my father in law contacted Church leaders in Salt Lake city, indicating that he wanted to make a sizeable donation to the Perpetual Education Fund. Before he did so, though, he wanted to look at the financial records of that program. He was invited to Salt Lake, met with a couple of the Seventy who administer the program, and was shown the financial records of the PEF. My father in law, who before retirement was a CFO of a major banking instituion, felt that the program was being administered wisely and proceeded with his sizeable donation.

I don't know why I relate this story. Perhaps because I don't think that the Church's financial records are as opaque as some people claim. For a good cause, with good reason, as my Father in law did, those records seem to be readily accessible.

[Blink]

A related question:

I've heard that tithing is not used for paying the stipends of GA's, and I believe that that is so. However, how does the for-profit arm of the church (Deseret Management, etc) show the monies divided out as stipends for GA's on their financial statements? Or do they? Does that show up anywhere?

[rchorse]

If the church is covering something up (which is a baseless accusation, and frankly, strikes me as paranoid), then it has every incentive NOT to make the financials public. If, on the other hand, the church is managing funds wisely, there's still no incentive to make the financials public. Audits by public accounting firms are VERY expensive and the publishing annual financial statements would not be cheap either. Accountants and financial analysts don't work for free. The costs could run into the millions of dollars, all to satisfy the curiosity of people who in all likelihood don't pay tithing. I find it interesting that typically it's those who pay nothing in tithing that are the most concerned that something is being covered up.

My guess on the stipends is that the for-profit entity (Deseret Management, etc.) would record the stipend as a charitable donation into a stipend fund of the church, or something similar.

[tapped]

RCHIII (formerly tetriforce)

".....even though they been audited by the US government..."

Oh really? when? what department or bureau of the US Govt.?

do you have a reference number or file name?

I've seen this written before here, but NEVER backed up with solid info or any documentation.....

[snow]

There is a difference is individuals saying the Church should open up their financial records because they think there is a scandal and wanting to see the records to gain an understanding as to what the Church invests their money in.

I haven't gotten the impression that the people in this thread are accusing the Church of a scandal, but have interest in what the Church invests in.

Sure the Church has no obligation to open their books to satisfy curiousity, and members have the right to not pay tithing to an organization that does not provide access to financial information.

[rchorse]

Sure the Church has no obligation to open their books to satisfy curiousity, and members have the right to not pay tithing to an organization that does not provide access to financial information.

I agree completely, and I suspect that those that have a problem with the fact that the church doesn't provide the information are already not paying tithing for the most part.

[Teancum]

I regularly receive huge and very detailed annual financial reports from companies in which I hold stock.  They mean nothing to me.  They are incredibly technical and boring.  I immediately put them in the recycling bin.

With all due respect you may do this but millions of others don't. I don't and find financial data useful in investing and financial evaluation.

Enron published such a report every year.  Things always looked great, and prospects were always rosy.  They were audited by a huge accounting firm, now dead.

Certainly Enron was a debacle the put a large firm out if business. There have been other debacles as well. WorldCom comes to mind. However, on a percentage basis most audited financial statements can be relied upon and a few bad examples is not reason to argue that the church should not publish financial information, nor is the fact that you or others trash outer financial data you receive.

There may be good reason for the church not to but this is not one of them.

Teancum

[Teancum]

]

About six months before all of this (Enron) came out I was doing work on a beautiful home up in Summit Park, Utah.  The homeowner ( it was a vacation home, and about 5000 square feet) had also purchased the lot next door and torn the existing home down so that it wouldn't obstruct their mountain views.  This homeowner worked for Arthur Anderson. At the time I didn't understand how an accountant could have that much money.  Now I understand where this source of money came from.

A partner in any international accounting firm makes from $300,000 to $600,000. The money was made honestly and in fact there were no kickbacks to the Andersen Auditots of Enron. Instead they may have hid things, or been sloppy in their audit due to the large fees Enron paid for the audit nad other consulting work.

Sarbanes-Oxly has added substantial regulations nad additional ruiles for accounting firms that audit publicly traded companies as a result of Enron. Ther eare significant compliance costs to the company and Audit fees will have to go up to the CPA firms that do the audits. Overall this may be a good thing in the long run for accounting firms.

TEancum

[Teancum]

There are only three reasons I can see that it would be necessary to see the church's financials

How about the fact that when dealing with peoples large adn substantial contributions that are made in faith in a relgious setting, disclosure is the right thing to do to, among other things, demonstrate that the use of the funds is beyond reproach. It is the right thing to do and not doing it makes the church look like it is hiding something.

BTW, financial statements, particularly audited ones, are not maniplulated as easily as you think. Ask me. I work in the industry.

Teancum

[Blink]

I agree completely, and I suspect that those that have a problem with the fact that the church doesn't provide the information are already not paying tithing for the most part.

Your suspicions would be unfounded.

[Teancum]

By the way, investors are entitled to see financial information, but donors are not usually.  Tithe payers are donors, not investors.

Not so. In fact most 501©(3) orgs publish their audited financials under state requirements as well as an attempt to get more donors by showing the donor exactly what they are doing. Additionally the Federal Form 990 that a NFP files annualy is available for public review.

Churches however are exampt from filing a 990 and do not have to disclose finances under most state law.

TEancum

[Teancum]

If the church is covering something up (which is a baseless accusation, and frankly, strikes me as paranoid), then it has every incentive NOT to make the financials public. If, on the other hand, the church is managing funds wisely, there's still no incentive to make the financials public. Audits by public accounting firms are VERY expensive and the publishing annual financial statements would not be cheap either. Accountants and financial analysts don't work for free. The costs could run into the millions of dollars, all to satisfy the curiosity of people who in all likelihood don't pay tithing. I find it interesting that typically it's those who pay nothing in tithing that are the most concerned that something is being covered up.

My guess on the stipends is that the for-profit entity (Deseret Management, etc.) would record the stipend as a charitable donation into a stipend fund of the church, or something similar.

Why do you think that only non tithe payers want to see financial info published.

I pay tithing and would be pleased to see the church publish financial info.

Teancum

[Moksha]

In the long run, the Church has everything to gain in coming clean about its finances.

For one thing, nobody here would be forced to come up with ridiculous excuses for not being above board.

The fact that other Churches are open in their financial records should encourage the LDS to be more honest and not more shady in covering up their finances.

The Church is open about their Gospel, what do they have to hide about their finances?

Be Honest - Open the Books

Let's put this issue to rest by a full disclosure.

[rchorse]

Your suspicions would be unfounded.

That's why they're just suspicions. And I did say most, not all.

BTW, financial statements, particularly audited ones, are not maniplulated as easily as you think. Ask me. I work in the industry.

Although I'm sure you know more than I do and have more experience, I disagree that it's prohibitively difficult to manipulate the statements. For someone who knows what they're doing, there's always a way to manipulate it. Companies manipulate their statements (usually within the confines of GAAP and the law) to make them look better all the time. I agree, though, that massive, ongoing fraud would be difficult to hide for more than a few years.

Not so. In fact most 501

[Kosh]

I may be completely off base with that assumption.

I suspect you are because I too am a tithe payer and it really bothers me that the Church is not willing to publically disclose it's finances. Perhaps it is due to my background (banking) which not only had strict accounting and surprise internal audits of each branch; but it also had independent auditors who would go over every detail of the banks finances.

How is the Church somehow above this accountability to it's members? They require that all members (to be in good standing and temple worthy) donate 10% of their income, which is a great and difficult sacrifice to many, but do not disclose how that money is being used. This is wrong.

[emaughan]

Now, seriously, do you think that a TBM is going to go against the prophet?

If the prophet was doing something wrong - YOU BET!

You critics do not have a very good understanding of what it means to be LDS. This is of course is based soley on my experiences, people I've known, and what charactures I've seen antimos use to portray us "ignorant, blind, Mormon folk". I can not think of a single member in my current ward that would not come forward if they were privy to some big finacial scandal in the church (maybe two wards back - but that guy was a nut!).

With so many honest people in the LDS church, I can not imagine that the leadership (the few GAs that I have met are also VERY honest men) would ever participate in such nefarious dealings. There may be a bad apple here or there but they would be a small minority in this church.

What I think the church should come clean on is what do they keep in those LOCKED janitorial closets in the church office buildings?? There has to some hidden scandal just waiting to see the light of day.

[Blink]

What I think the church should come clean on is what do they keep in those LOCKED janitorial closets in the church office buildings?? There has to some hidden scandal just waiting to see the light of day.

I don't know about the church office building, as I'm normally not in Utah, but if you participated in your ward's cleaning day on Saturdays, you'd know exactly what's in the locked janitorial closets in your ward building: cleaning chemicals, harmful to children if swallowed. They are required by law to keep them in locked cabinets. To do less leaves the church liable for a negligence claim. The brooms, mops, and vacuum cleaners are kept in the unlocked one, in case you ever feel the urge to actually help with keeping the building clean.

[Moksha]

The laughable thing is that the members who have the most lackadaisical attitude to Church accountability regarding finances, are probably the most eagle eyed when it comes to their own finances.

Willful ignorance must represent Holiness in their minds. If you cared about the Church, you would want it to be honest and accountable.

Stickiing your head in the sand does not help the Church.

[tapped]

the D&C (26:2) says that 'things' in the church shall be done by common consent (which is ?)... How can things be done by common consent when enough information to make-develop an INFORMED consent is not forthcoming???

[will2believe]

Blink, is your sarcasm detector on the ..uh.. blink?

[juliann]

What a bizarre thread. Five pages of complaining about nondisclosure when contributions are voluntary. If you don't contribute it is really none of your concern. If you do contribute and aren't happy don't contribute! What are we going to get next? A ten page thread of tongue clucking over the expenditures of the local country club?

It must be a very slow week or something.

[wenglund]

Could somebody help me out here. I have look all over the New Testament to find where Christ or the Church thought it necessary to abrogate their right to privacy, and placate the distrust of overly suspicious members and critics, by publicly disclosing the finances of the Church.

There is evidence to suggest that tithes and offerings were collected. But, I have been unable to find any annual statements

[Teancum]

What a bizarre thread.  Five pages of complaining about nondisclosure when contributions are voluntary.

There is nothing bizarre about it. For me I will not stop contributing because the info is not available. But it is one of a few things I believe the leaders should do. I am not losing sleep over it. What amazes me is how some are so vociferously opposed to it. I find this peculiar.

If you don't contribute it is really none of your concern.

I could agree with this.

If you do contribute and aren't happy don't contribute!

Much to simple. If someone is active LDS, wants to be active and participate to its fullest, yet still thinks the right thing to do is be open about the church finances, that person has little choice but to keep donating. If they do not then they cannot go to the temple and thus are denied an important part of being actively LDS.

A ten page thread of tongue clucking over the expenditures of the local country club? 

I find the remark above rather demeaning. This is important to some people that are very active and believing members. They are not suspicious of malfeasance. They just believe that when people give a lot of their income to an organization that requires it to be a member in good standing the right thing to do is to publish how the money is used. There is nothing evil wrong about this.

Teancum