Background Checks?

[sjdawg]

Just now, Robert D. Crockett said:

Background checks should play no role in religion.  Exactly how does my insurance broker bishop know how to obtain a background check?  And when?  

I don't think it is that complicated.  My local community league has figured it out. My local youth hockey league has figured it out.  My local (non-Lds) boy scout troup has figured it out.  None of these organizations have anywhere near the resources of the mormon church

[sjdawg]

5 minutes ago, Robert D. Crockett said:

The Church does not operate that way.  Bishops are not mind readers or oracles.  There are plenty of scriptural examples of deceptions practiced against priests and prophets.  Yes, there are the rare examples of oracular intervention, such as Anna and Ananias's case. But they are very rare. 

I can cite examples of general authorities who were adulterers, practicing homosexuals and fraudsters for many years.  God does not interfere with agency.   

https://www.lds.org/study/liahona/2018/06/youth/questions-and-answers/what-is-the-gift-of-discernment?lang=eng

 

This article says that the gift of discernment includes perceiving the "true character of people"

[Danzo]

There is a registered sex offender that attends our ward.

Is the church now responsible for what this person does outside the church?

Does knowing who is a registered sex offender allow us to treat this person differently?

 

[rpn]

It costs a lot of money (to do the fingerprinting and follow the information to the full extent necessary not to malign innocents and make sure you have all the info on each person).  (And across country boundaries or in most countries where records are not so very digitalized or kept, even if bad guys are caught and fingerprinted, perhaps even impossible.)

It takes weeks to do it right. 

It makes people feel good, but it doesn't really protect anyone from anything.   (I call this creating security theater.)

What I would do if I were in charge of the church is enforce the two deep leadership, ask the children of the person being considered for leadership whether their parent is fit to serve, and have anyone being considered for a calling in the church where they dealt directly with youth or children complete a questionnaire (below) before speaking with the bishop about the calling or at least before being called in ward or stake leadership (including RSP and EQP), with EQP/RSP asking the same when talking with ministering prospective ministering people),

Do you get angry (if they said "no" that would raise a red flag of credibility). 

When was the last time you yelled at anyone when you became angry?  Circumstances

When was the last time you thought of pushing someone intentionally?

When was the last time you used force or coercion to get something you wanted?  Circumstances?  What would you do the next time in the same circumstances?

When was the last time you were not fully honest in a relationship?

When was the last time you were not financially honest?

Have you ever violated the 2 deep leadership requirement at church?  Why?  And in what circumstances, and when?  (The point here is to make sure they know to cancel the activity if they cannot find a parent or someone to preserve 2 deep leadership, because this is the ONE thing that does have capacity to protect young people)

What does emotional abuse look like to you?  (The point here is to talk about this.  And teach what we know about God expects of mortals.)

Have you ever emotionally abused your wife, a minor, someone you supervised, someone you thought weaker than you, an employee, or anyone?

What does physical abuse look like to you?   (The point here is to have a discussion that includes God doesn't use force or threats or coercion to effect His goals and neither should mortals.)

Have you ever physically abused your wife, a minor, or anyone?

What does sexual abuse look like to you?

Have you ever inappropriately looked at or or thought about sexually, or touched a minor, someone who was incapacitated, an employee or anyone? 

When was the last time you intentionally viewed porn?  

Have you ever intentionally or for more than the time it took you to identify something that was as such, viewed porn involving minor?

Have you ever done anything to anyone that others might interpret as inappropriate or morally wrong?

And for the relevant callings?  (those handling money, or auditing)

When was the last time you were not fully honest?

Have you ever kept money or property that didn't belong to you, or cheat on your taxes?

Do you have trouble keeping your bills paid on time?

Is your job stable?

When was the last time you told your spouse about something you heard from those you minister to?   Circumstances.  (Because trying to figure something out, or getting spouse to help address it might be appropriate.)  those being called to bishoprics/presidencies, including secretaries

Have you every had reason to suspect that something you shared with a spouse confidentially was then shared or acted upon by your spouse?   (If so, how would you plan to protect confidentiality of the things you will know in the course of your accepting this calling? )

What is your understanding about the need to preserve what members tell you in this role as confidential?   (You want them to know that it is no small thing to share the things members say in confidence with others, and that advising the member of how you might need to share and asking permission would be critical to preserving their agency.)

If the members in our ward knew everything about you that you and your Heavenly Father know about you, would they sustain a decision to call you into a position that directly interacts with youth or children or finances or requires confidentiality?   If, no,  would   you agree with their assessment, why or why not?

I'd guess that most who are predators would decline to be called to anything after reading the questionnaire.  (Others would too, not necessarily because they are pedophiles or into underaged kids, or abusive, though, so leaders shouldn't ask thereafter more than, "Is there anything I can do to help you get to a better place?   I can help you find appropriate therapy for whatever your issues are  and help you pay for it if necessary, and I would like to do that because you deserve to be and feel square with God's expectations."   or maybe, "if you are survivor of any kind of abuse, I can help you find and pay for therapy if you want to let me do that"

[Danzo]

7 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

I don't think it is that complicated.  My local community league has figured it out. My local youth hockey league has figured it out.  My local (non-Lds) boy scout troup has figured it out.  None of these organizations have anywhere near the resources of the mormon church

Do the the children who are part of the hockey league and the boy scout troop have a greater or lesser chance of being abused that the children that attend the Mormon church?

[rpn]

4 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

https://www.lds.org/study/liahona/2018/06/youth/questions-and-answers/what-is-the-gift-of-discernment?lang=eng

 

This article says that the gift of discernment includes perceiving the "true character of people"

I've never read a scripture or any claim that leader's being set apart means they have the capability  and obligation to prevent all harm.   Indeed, interviewers may have reason to suspect that someone is not telling the whole truth or that something is off, and still be inspired to allow it to happen (Alma at the destruction of the women, for instance), or to call them.   The gift of discernment isn't a lie detector nor is it any kind of guarantee that the person will fully and rightly do even the calling.

[Danzo]

3 minutes ago, rpn said:

It costs a lot of money (to do the fingerprinting and follow the information to the full extent necessary not to malign innocents and make sure you have all the info on each person).  (And across country boundaries or in most countries where records are not so very digitalized or kept, even if bad guys are caught and fingerprinted, perhaps even impossible.)

It takes weeks to do it right. 

It makes people feel good, but it doesn't really protect anyone from anything.   (I call this creating security theater.)

What I would do if I were in charge of the church is enforce the two deep leadership, ask the children of the person being considered for leadership whether their parent is fit to serve, and have anyone being considered for a calling in the church where they dealt directly with youth or children complete a questionnaire (below) before speaking with the bishop about the calling or at least before being called in ward or stake leadership (including RSP and EQP), with EQP/RSP asking the same when talking with ministering prospective ministering people),

Do you get angry (if they said "no" that would raise a red flag of credibility). 

When was the last time you yelled at anyone when you became angry?  Circumstances

When was the last time you thought of pushing someone intentionally?

When was the last time you used force or coercion to get something you wanted?  Circumstances?  What would you do the next time in the same circumstances?

When was the last time you were not fully honest in a relationship?

When was the last time you were not financially honest?

Have you ever violated the 2 deep leadership requirement at church?  Why?  And in what circumstances, and when?  (The point here is to make sure they know to cancel the activity if they cannot find a parent or someone to preserve 2 deep leadership, because this is the ONE thing that does have capacity to protect young people)

What does emotional abuse look like to you?  (The point here is to talk about this.  And teach what we know about God expects of mortals.)

Have you ever emotionally abused your wife, a minor, someone you supervised, someone you thought weaker than you, an employee, or anyone?

What does physical abuse look like to you?   (The point here is to have a discussion that includes God doesn't use force or threats or coercion to effect His goals and neither should mortals.)

Have you ever physically abused your wife, a minor, or anyone?

What does sexual abuse look like to you?

Have you ever inappropriately looked at or or thought about sexually, or touched a minor, someone who was incapacitated, an employee or anyone? 

When was the last time you intentionally viewed porn?  

Have you ever intentionally or for more than the time it took you to identify something that was as such, viewed porn involving minor?

Have you ever done anything to anyone that others might interpret as inappropriate or morally wrong?

And for the relevant callings?  (those handling money, or auditing)

When was the last time you were not fully honest?

Have you ever kept money or property that didn't belong to you, or cheat on your taxes?

Do you have trouble keeping your bills paid on time?

Is your job stable?

When was the last time you told your spouse about something you heard from those you minister to?   Circumstances.  (Because trying to figure something out, or getting spouse to help address it might be appropriate.)  those being called to bishoprics/presidencies, including secretaries

Have you every had reason to suspect that something you shared with a spouse confidentially was then shared or acted upon by your spouse?   (If so, how would you plan to protect confidentiality of the things you will know in the course of your accepting this calling? )

What is your understanding about the need to preserve what members tell you in this role as confidential?   (You want them to know that it is no small thing to share the things members say in confidence with others, and that advising the member of how you might need to share and asking permission would be critical to preserving their agency.)

If the members in our ward knew everything about you that you and your Heavenly Father know about you, would they sustain a decision to call you into a position that directly interacts with youth or children or finances or requires confidentiality?   If, no,  would   you agree with their assessment, why or why not?

I'd guess that most who are predators would decline to be called to anything after reading the questionnaire.  (Others would too, not necessarily because they are pedophiles or into underaged kids, or abusive, though, so leaders shouldn't ask thereafter more than, "Is there anything I can do to help you get to a better place?   I can help you find appropriate therapy for whatever your issues are  and help you pay for it if necessary, and I would like to do that because you deserve to be and feel square with God's expectations."   or maybe, "if you are survivor of any kind of abuse, I can help you find and pay for therapy if you want to let me do that"

I think you have eliminated just about everyone from a calling.

[ALarson]

4 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Does knowing who is a registered sex offender allow us to treat this person differently?

Yes.  They should not be allowed to serve in positions where they are with children, for example

[sjdawg]

Just now, rpn said:

I've never read a scripture or any claim that leader's being set apart means they have the capability  and obligation to prevent all harm.   Indeed, interviewers may have reason to suspect that someone is not telling the whole truth or that something is off, and still be inspired to allow it to happen (Alma at the destruction of the women, for instance), or to call them.   The gift of discernment isn't a lie detector nor is it any kind of guarantee that the person will fully and rightly do even the calling.

I don't believe that they do have the capability to prevent all harm.  That is why I believe background checks should be mandatory for certain callings.

[sjdawg]

4 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Do the the children who are part of the hockey league and the boy scout troop have a greater or lesser chance of being abused that the children that attend the Mormon church?

I would say about the same if neither organization bothers to do a background check.  

Edited April 9, 2019 by sjdawg

[ALarson]

4 minutes ago, rpn said:

It costs a lot of money (to do the fingerprinting and follow the information to the full extent necessary not to malign innocents and make sure you have all the info on each person). 

The church has the money to do this.  

If it saves just one child from being sexually abused, do you really want to put a dollar sign on what could have prevented that?

 

[Danzo]

Just now, ALarson said:

Yes.  They should not be allowed to serve in positions where they are with children, for example

Does that prevent them from being with children?

Serious question. 

The registered Sex offender that attends our ward has children that are members of our wards, so the church really can't prevent him from being around some of the children in our ward.  These children happen to have friends in our ward.

[rpn]

2 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

Background check services for sx offender registries cost very little.

But if all you do is check the sex offender registry, you don't have enough info to determine whether or not the person is unsuitable --- there are people on them who were homeless and peed in the park, and others who had consensual sex with a girlfriend who was still underage.   Futhermore, although I don't know a current statistic, in the past the research found that pedophiles offended as many or more than 50 times before getting caught.   So not being on the registry doesn't do much if anything to protect children.

[Danzo]

1 minute ago, sjdawg said:

I would say about the same if neither organization bothers to do a background check.  

does belonging to an organization that does background checks reduce the incidence if abuse?

[sjdawg]

Just now, Danzo said:

Does that prevent them from being with children?

Serious question. 

The registered Sex offender that attends our ward has children that are members of our wards, so the church really can't prevent him from being around some of the children in our ward.  These children happen to have friends in our ward.

Depending on the offense his release conditions may prevent him from being around children in the ward.

[ALarson]

18 minutes ago, Robert D. Crockett said:

I can cite examples of general authorities who were adulterers, practicing homosexuals and fraudsters for many years. 

Any who abused children?

I think that is the concern here and what many are trying to prevent from happening in the future.  There are no guarantees, of course....but many leaders have claimed they had no idea a new member of their ward was a convicted child molester.  Maybe we should be doing a better job of notations on records or mandatory alerts when a person such as this moves.

What do you suggest doing that will help cut down the numbers of these cases?

[sjdawg]

Just now, Danzo said:

does belonging to an organization that does background checks reduce the incidence if abuse?

I don't know but if nothing else it demonstrates that an organization is doing what it can to mitigate known risk.

[Danzo]

Just now, sjdawg said:

Depending on the offense his release conditions may prevent him from being around children in the ward.

In this case it does not.

What should the church do?

[rpn]

4 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I think you have eliminated just about everyone from a calling.

The questions do no such thing.   They simply give the opportunity to teach the Lord's way, and to self-reflect, and help people eliminate behavior that does provide risk to minors.   The answers to most questions would simply inform, not necessarily exclude.

[sjdawg]

Just now, Danzo said:

In this case it does not.

What should the church do?

I don't know what the church should do entirely but I know what they shouldn't do.  They shouldn't put him in a calling where he has access to children. 

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Does that prevent them from being with children?

24 hours a day?  Of course not.  But you asked if they could be treated differently than other members.

[Danzo]

1 minute ago, rpn said:

The questions do no such thing.   They simply give the opportunity to teach the Lord's way, and to self-reflect, and help people eliminate behavior that does provide risk to minors.   The answers to most questions would simply inform, not necessarily exclude.

Now we are back to trusting someones judgement, too much uncertainty.

 

[rpn]

2 minutes ago, Danzo said:

does belonging to an organization that does background checks reduce the incidence if abuse? 

I suspect it prompts some who would do harm to self select themselves out of being in that organization.    And that clearly would reduce risk.   But since at least pedophiles are known to commit many offenses before the first time they get caught, background checks may not reduce abuse, unless the predator self selects to avoid the organization.

[Gray]

26 minutes ago, Robert D. Crockett said:

I've had teachers, lawyers, petty criminals, videographers, financial advisors, college students, boyfriends, husbands, fathers, grandfathers -- predators all who would have passed background checks.

This particular guy, however, would not have passed a background check.

[clarkgoble]

23 minutes ago, Robert D. Crockett said:

Background checks should play no role in religion.  Exactly how does my insurance broker bishop know how to obtain a background check?  And when?  

The Church would contract with a background check agency.