BMAF

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Burnside said:

trying to protect their 501(c)(3) business model, you know MONEY!

Everyone at FairMormon---save the book manager who is not involved in producing content or answering questions and the tech guy---are paying to be part of that business.  If we wanted to make money we could up our income by dumping the thing and putting time into something that pays us.  We even have to pay for tickets to our own conference and the dinner afterwards.  I don't think we even get a discount.

I don't know how it works at the other groups as some have more fulltime employees, understandably since their goal is producing more content than we do.

[Burnside]

BMAF.org is back up. Oh joy. Scholars rejoiceth.

BMAF was acquired by Book of Mormon Central. You can read it on the website.

Book of Mormon Central is promoting a Book of Mormon Mesoamerica Geography Theory which they ripped off from the RLDS Church.

Plagiarized, stole, borrowed, whichever synonym you prefer. It’s how Book of Mormon Central claims to be neutral on Book of Mormon geography. By promoting a plagiarized geography theory from the RLDS Church.

Did I mention they plagiarized a geography theory from the RLDS Church?

Ever heard of the “Report of the Society for Archaeological Research” to The First Presidency and General Conference?

Here’s a report from a 1954 “Saints Herald.” Read how several trips were made to Mexico in search of The Hill Cumorah so they could discover Ether’s 24 gold plates, and get rich. That’s because they believe in a Two-Hill Cumorah geography theory.

And so should you because Book of Mormon Central plagiarized a geography theory from the RLDS Church.

Did I mentioned again how Book of Mormon Central plagiarized a geography theory from the RLDS Church? How clumsy of me. Especially when I already mentioned how Book of Mormon Central plagiarized a Book of Mormon geography theory from the RLDS Church.

 

 

 

[Burnside]

Here’s a portion of a 1904 publication by the RLDS Church mentioning the “Society for Arhaeological Research.”

1904, that’s a long time ago. 

Should I mention again how Book of Mormon Central plagiarized a Book of Mormon geography theory from the RLDS Church?

Tell your friends. 

 

[Calm]

And anyone who talks about evolution without mentioning Darwin is plagiarising him, right?

[Brant Gardner]

7 hours ago, Burnside said:

Did I mention they plagiarized a geography theory from the RLDS Church?

Yes, ad nauseam. Also, you have continued to use both terms and history incorrectly. There is a difference between plagiarism and independent invention, and there is a very large time difference between your suggestion that BMC plagiarized an RLDS idea. The next problem is that you seem to think that because it was an RLDS scholar that it is somehow a de facto incorrect concept. That is yet another problem with your analysis.

Where you miss the history is that M. Wells Jakeman is credited with the LDS version of the limited geography. I don't know if he knew of the RLDS article or not, but he was working with Mesoamerican history and I suspect got his ideas from there. It is also important to distinguish between the general idea of limiting the geography and looking at Central America, and the very specific definitions that Jakeman gave. John Sorenson modified and expanded on Jakeman. Sorenson didn't invent the concept either, and clearly knew Jakeman and Jakeman's ideas. That doesn't mean that they were plagiarized, but Sorenson's work expanded on Jakeman. 

BMC comes very late to the party, and is working with things others have said about geography, not creating new ones (and it isn't uniform in the geogrpahy among BMC members). Accusing BMC of plagiarism doesn't just get the concept of plagiarism wrong, it gets history wrong.

I work for BMC part-time, and I am very willing to examine any geography. I put them all to the test of the text. There are any number of geographies that I don't believe--because they cannot withstand scrutiny of using the text to check the geography. This will be the third time I have asked you to present a geography that you think works. I promise that I will examine it only against the text, geography, and known archaeology.

I think the least you can do, after accusing so many of reprehensible acts, is to be open enough to let us discover what you think should BMC really should believe. Please.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Brant Gardner

[Robert D. Crockett]

12 hours ago, Brant Gardner said:

Yes, ad nauseam. 

[Snip]

I work for BMC part-time, and I am very willing to examine any geography. I put them all to the test of the text. 

 

Dr. Sorenson's narrow neck of land discussion is impossible, not reasonable and wrong.  Unless Alma got it completely wrong.

[Brant Gardner]

1 hour ago, Robert D. Crockett said:

Dr. Sorenson's narrow neck of land discussion is impossible, not reasonable and wrong.  Unless Alma got it completely wrong.

You aren't the only one who has thought that. I do think that if the distance were sea to sea that it would be a major problem, but that isn't the way it is stated. In one case, it is from the west sea to Bountiful (the city, I believe). In addition, it turns out that much of that area was impassible swamp during Book of Mormon lands. While not a sea, it decreases the defensive distance--which is the distance begin described.

Of course, I still haven't seen a good discussion of the 1 day verses day and a half for the two different narrow neck distances.

[Burnside]

On 4/2/2019 at 6:47 AM, Brant Gardner said:

Yes, ad nauseam. Also, you have continued to use both terms and history incorrectly. There is a difference between plagiarism and independent invention, and there is a very large time difference between your suggestion that BMC plagiarized an RLDS idea. The next problem is that you seem to think that because it was an RLDS scholar that it is somehow a de facto incorrect concept. That is yet another problem with your analysis.

Where you miss the history is that M. Wells Jakeman is credited with the LDS version of the limited geography. I don't know if he knew of the RLDS article or not, but he was working with Mesoamerican history and I suspect got his ideas from there. It is also important to distinguish between the general idea of limiting the geography and looking at Central America, and the very specific definitions that Jakeman gave. John Sorenson modified and expanded on Jakeman. Sorenson didn't invent the concept either, and clearly knew Jakeman and Jakeman's ideas. That doesn't mean that they were plagiarized, but Sorenson's work expanded on Jakeman. 

BMC comes very late to the party, and is working with things others have said about geography, not creating new ones (and it isn't uniform in the geogrpahy among BMC members). Accusing BMC of plagiarism doesn't just get the concept of plagiarism wrong, it gets history wrong.

I work for BMC part-time, and I am very willing to examine any geography. I put them all to the test of the text. There are any number of geographies that I don't believe--because they cannot withstand scrutiny of using the text to check the geography. This will be the third time I have asked you to present a geography that you think works. I promise that I will examine it only against the text, geography, and known archaeology.

I think the least you can do, after accusing so many of reprehensible acts, is to be open enough to let us discover what you think should BMC really should believe. Please.

Wrong again, as usual.

RLDS member Louis E Hills came up with the Mesoamerica Two-Hill Cumorah geography. Here page 131 in his 1924 book:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89058377359;view=1up;seq=135

“I have no objection to that hill being also called Cumorah, with the understanding that the ancient hill Cumorah is still undiscovered, and that sometime its secrets will be revealed and come to the knowledge of God's people.”

This is exactly what BMC is promoting, that the actual Hill Cumorah is in Mesoamerica.

No matter who Sorenson got it from it was plagiarized from the RLDS Church by the time he got it to it; and BMC is not late to the party, it’s co-founder Jack Welch co-founded F.A.R.M.S. back in the late 70s and later founded BMC when F.A.R.M.S. got rightfully tossed out of BYU’s Maxwell Institute (MI) for being malicious toward people who disagreed with the RLDS Two-Cumorah Mesoamerica LGT theory. Called FARMS review of books and other online criticisms. Which I’ve seen and read. Mean and nasty.

Welch and Dan Peterson founders of FARMS moved to MI, later or just recently since 2010, founded BMC and The Interpreter Foundation, respectively and both now promote the plagiarized RLDS Two-Cumorah Geography theory and they hauled over all the FARMS and MI articles they could to their websites.

BMC and BMAF merged, which is explained on BMC’s website. BMAF is owned by Kirk Magleby. All this is public knowledge.

Both BMC and BMAF are linked at the RLDS site for Book of Mormon Foundation, here:

https://www.bomf.org/links.html  You can see the images of BMC and BMAF.

https://www.bomf.org/bmf-history.html  RLDS BOMF history, started in 1966.

You may work for BMC but you are not willing to examine any geography. You’ve made that abundantly clear on the other discussion thread were you referred to Oliver Cowdery as a second-witness witness, and thus wrong and not reliable when he wrote in 1834 that it was a fact the final Jaredite and Nephite battles occurred at the Hill Cumorah in New York, which completely destroys the plagiarized RLDS Two-Cumorah geography theory which BMC and The Intrepreter Foundation promote, both which you admitted you work for.

Oliver Cowdery’s statement here: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/90

You, BMC, The Intrepreter Foundation and others who promote the plagiarized RLDS Two-Cumorah geography theory have turned Oliver Cowdery into a liar.

Have you no shame?

 

 

[rodheadlee]

34 minutes ago, Burnside said:

Wrong again, as usual.

RLDS member Louis E Hills came up with the Mesoamerica Two-Hill Cumorah geography. Here page 131 in his 1924 book:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89058377359;view=1up;seq=135

“I have no objection to that hill being also called Cumorah, with the understanding that the ancient hill Cumorah is still undiscovered, and that sometime its secrets will be revealed and come to the knowledge of God's people.”

This is exactly what BMC is promoting, that the actual Hill Cumorah is in Mesoamerica.

No matter who Sorenson got it from it was plagiarized from the RLDS Church by the time he got it to it; and BMC is not late to the party, it’s co-founder Jack Welch co-founded F.A.R.M.S. back in the late 70s and later founded BMC when F.A.R.M.S. got rightfully tossed out of BYU’s Maxwell Institute (MI) for being malicious toward people who disagreed with the RLDS Two-Cumorah Mesoamerica LGT theory. Called FARMS review of books and other online criticisms. Which I’ve seen and read. Mean and nasty.

Welch and Dan Peterson founders of FARMS moved to MI, later or just recently since 2010, founded BMC and The Interpreter Foundation, respectively and both now promote the plagiarized RLDS Two-Cumorah Geography theory and they hauled over all the FARMS and MI articles they could to their websites.

BMC and BMAF merged, which is explained on BMC’s website. BMAF is owned by Kirk Magleby. All this is public knowledge.

Both BMC and BMAF are linked at the RLDS site for Book of Mormon Foundation, here:

https://www.bomf.org/links.html  You can see the images of BMC and BMAF.

https://www.bomf.org/bmf-history.html  RLDS BOMF history, started in 1966.

You may work for BMC but you are not willing to examine any geography. You’ve made that abundantly clear on the other discussion thread were you referred to Oliver Cowdery as a second-witness witness, and thus wrong and not reliable when he wrote in 1834 that it was a fact the final Jaredite and Nephite battles occurred at the Hill Cumorah in New York, which completely destroys the plagiarized RLDS Two-Cumorah geography theory which BMC and The Intrepreter Foundation promote, both which you admitted you work for.

Oliver Cowdery’s statement here: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/90

You, BMC, The Intrepreter Foundation and others who promote the plagiarized RLDS Two-Cumorah geography theory have turned Oliver Cowdery into a liar.

Have you no shame?

 

 

So, really you have nothing. No cement cities. No populations numbering in the Millions. No writing systems, no geography matching the text. Nothing.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Burnside said:

 

Please take this reponse to your droning monomania in the spirit in which it is offered: