D-News Reports 63,500 Missionaries Are Serving

[rockpond]

10 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Oh, wow.  It certainly was a factor in my experience when applying (and in having a TR interview).

I question how widespread your experience was.

That was not my experience.  At all.

I went from 1993-1995.  There was an elder in my district at the MTC who was sort of what you describe.  He had never read the Book of Mormon.  We encouraged him along.

Everyone else, though, seemed to have a pretty solid grasp of the Gospel and a testimony of it.  

I hope things have changed since your experience in the 80s.  I think they have.

My son has had a great experience.  He's taught far, far more people than I ever did.

Thanks,

-Smac

You can and should question how widespread my experience was.  But now you've got JKWilliams sharing a similar perspective.

And, as I indicated, I don't think things have changed considerably.  And I believe that, apart from institutional and cultural changes within the church, our current crop of YM are much different than when I was their age.  It's good to see.  Many of them want the deep and thought provoking lessons that the Come Follow Me manuals allow/encourage us to teach.  I think that spiritually they are better prepared than my generation.  But, in terms of work ethic and the ability to "disconnect" they may not be.

[rockpond]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I went from 1974-76, and my experience parallels Smacs, not rockpond's in this regard. Being able to express a testimony was an indispensable element. One of the first things we learned how to do in the language training mission (forerunner to the MTC) was to bear our testimonies in the language of the mission.

Sharing a testimony isn't the same as having a testimony.  I trust you agree.

[smac97]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

Maybe all the crappy missionaries got sent to my mission and rockpond's mission. 

No I encountered "crappy missionaries."  But they were in the minority.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, rockpond said:

You can and should question how widespread my experience was.  But now you've got JKWilliams sharing a similar perspective.

And Scott Lloyd sharing a perspective similar to mine.

2 minutes ago, rockpond said:

And, as I indicated, I don't think things have changed considerably.  And I believe that, apart from institutional and cultural changes within the church, our current crop of YM are much different than when I was their age.  It's good to see.  Many of them want the deep and thought provoking lessons that the Come Follow Me manuals allow/encourage us to teach.  I think that spiritually they are better prepared than my generation.  But, in terms of work ethic and the ability to "disconnect" they may not be.

Hmm.  Some interesting thoughts.

Thanks,

-Smac

[jkwilliams]

Just now, smac97 said:

I'd like to better understand the context.

Jesus once admonished Simon Peter: "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat.  But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren."

I don't think the meaning here is that Simon was devoid of faith, of a "testimony," but rather than he still had a long, long way to go.  I wonder if Pres. Monson and your MP had a similar sentiment in mind.

The way my mission president explained it many times to us office elders, he knew that a lot of missionaries were there for reasons other than faith, testimony, and a desire to serve. He said he felt his responsibility was to convert the unconverted, and then we would really see miracles in our mission. As I said, that didn't last, which was disappointing. He would refer to missionaries as "boys" if they weren't doing what they should, and "men" when they were. He said you needed to be converted to change from a boy to a man.

Quote

 

Hmm.  I did not have an experience like that at all.  The missionaries I worked with had varying degrees of maturity and work ethic, and I did encounter some who pretty clearly did not want to be there.  But I did not observe any systemic problem in terms of cynicism, ulterior motives, faithlessness, etc.  The predominent sentiment was a sincere desire to do the work.

I am sorry you had that experience.

 

It wasn't a bad experience for me. I just always felt bad that these guys were in tough living conditions thousands of miles from home and did not want to be there. I really did want to serve a mission and bring people to Christ, and that desire is what got me through even the worst times. I'm not saying this as an indictment of the missionaries in my mission, as even the ones who didn't want to be there still made some effort, and most of us really banded together because of the difficult circumstances we faced. I am just clear-eyed about my experience, and it sounds like rockpond's was similar.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Sharing a testimony isn't the same as having a testimony.  I trust you agree.

It seems that the latter would, by definition, be indispensable to the former. Am I missing something here?

 

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, rockpond said:

You can and should question how widespread my experience was.  But now you've got JKWilliams sharing a similar perspective.

And, as I indicated, I don't think things have changed considerably.  And I believe that, apart from institutional and cultural changes within the church, our current crop of YM are much different than when I was their age.  It's good to see.  Many of them want the deep and thought provoking lessons that the Come Follow Me manuals allow/encourage us to teach.  I think that spiritually they are better prepared than my generation.  But, in terms of work ethic and the ability to "disconnect" they may not be.

My son's friend came home from his mission to Paraguay pretty disillusioned and not wanting to talk about his experience. I was curious about his mission and kept asking, until he told me the reason he hadn't talked about it was that his father couldn't relate at all, that the struggles in his mission were far removed from his father's experience, which he said was the best experience of his life. When he figured out he could talk to me safely, he just poured it all out. From what he described to me, there wasn't a whole lot of difference between missionaries in Bolivia in the 1980s and missionaries in Paraguay in the 21st century. 

I don't think either one of us is trying to attack the church or denigrate the missionary program. That is how it was when I was a missionary, and there's nothing wrong with saying so.

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It seems that the latter would, by definition, be indispensable to the former. Am I missing something here?

I remember being taught that a testimony was gained in the sharing of it, so perhaps having it first is not indispensable.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I remember being taught that a testimony was gained in the sharing of it, so perhaps having it first is not indispensable.

I never did understand that remark from Elder Packer, and I'm not certain I agree with it.

If what he meant was that a testimony is strengthened in the sharing of it, I do agree.

Edited August 24, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, smac97 said:

No I encountered "crappy missionaries."  But they were in the minority.  

They were in my mission, too. I'm not talking about the ones who took a road trip to Rio de Janeiro for Carnival, the ones who did a lot of drinking and had a lot of sex, the sister who went home pregnant--those were the crappy missionaries, and there weren't all that many of them. I'm talking about just regular missionaries, many of whom were there for reasons other than faith. It doesn't mean they were bad missionaries. I was joking about the crappy missionaries. 

[rockpond]

12 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Back in my day, there was the attitude, voiced by President Monson (IIRC), that "missionaries go out for many reasons; they stay because they are converted." Similarly my mission president said his first priority was to convert the missionaries to the gospel (of course, that didn't last long before numbers became the focus). I would say that probably 40% of the missionaries in my mission didn't really want to be there but had received pressure from families or girlfriends. I met more than a few who were told their parents would pay their college tuition or buy them a car if they served a mission. When I was district leader and zone leader, I remember meeting a lot of missionaries who were shocked that I expected them to work and follow the mission rules. I did a split once to do a baptismal interview, when I was zone leader, and the missionary took me to his apartment, where he stretched out on the bed. I asked him why we weren't going to the interview. "Oh," he said. "That's not until this afternoon." He then suggested that we watch one of the movies they had rented from the local video store (I didn't even know they had such stores in La Paz). When I told him that wasn't appropriate, he told me to "mellow out" and "stop acting like a ****."

In short, when I was a missionary, it was simply an expectation that you would serve. If you weren't worthy, then you needed to make yourself worthy. The results were predictable.

I vividly remember my first morning in the mission.  I arrived at our apartment very late that night after traveling a couple hours, with my trainer, from the mission president's home.  We shared an apartment with the zone leaders who were already asleep when we arrived.  I set my little alarm clock before going to sleep that night and dutifully woke up at 6:00 or 6:30 the next morning (whatever the little white book told us was the time - I can't recall).  I woke up at the appointed hour but my trainer and the two zone leaders slept for a couple hours after that.  I thought maybe it was just that particular morning but it turned out to be the norm for them.

Thankfully, as I continued in my mission I realized that it wasn't the norm for all... but, that there was a group of missionaries who didn't have a lot of regard for the rules.  As they wrapped up their time in the mission and headed home, things started to change dramatically.

[Guest]

On August 23, 2018 at 1:26 PM, cinepro said:

Or maybe they know something we don't about the rising generation...?

It's really beautiful inside though...

 

Wow, looks like a Temple, at lot nicer that the Atlanta Temple.

[Scott Lloyd]

23 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Back in my day, there was the attitude, voiced by President Monson (IIRC), that "missionaries go out for many reasons; they stay because they are converted." were predictable.

Having a testimony does not necessarily mean one is converted.

The distinction is axiomatic, though it seems many people have not learned it.

[rockpond]

9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It seems that the latter would, by definition, be indispensable to the former. Am I missing something here?

 

Do you think every missionary who ever said the typical words of a testimony actually possessed a testimony?

It is quite possible to say the words without having the conviction behind them.

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I never did understand that remark from Elder Packer, and I'm not certain I agree with it.

If what he meant was that a testimony is strengthened in the sharing of it, I do agree.

FWIW, here is the whole quote in context. I think I remember it because this was just prior to my mission, and I was reading a lot of church magazines then.

Quote

 

It is not unusual to have a missionary say, “How can I bear testimony until I get one? How can I testify that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, and that the gospel is true? If I do not have such a testimony, would that not be dishonest?”

Oh, if I could teach you this one principle. A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it! Somewhere in your quest for spiritual knowledge, there is that “leap of faith,” as the philosophers call it. It is the moment when you have gone to the edge of the light and stepped into the darkness to discover that the way is lighted ahead for just a footstep or two. “The spirit of man,” is as the scripture says, indeed “is the candle of the Lord.” (Prov. 20:27.)

It is one thing to receive a witness from what you have read or what another has said; and that is a necessary beginning. It is quite another to have the Spirit confirm to you in your bosom that what you have testified is true. Can you not see that it will be supplied as you share it? As you give that which you have, there is a replacement, with increase!

The prophet Ether “did prophecy great and marvelous things unto the people, which they did not believe, because they saw them not.

“And now, I, Moroni, … would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.” (Ether 12:5–6.)

To speak out is the test of your faith.

 

I think what he's saying is that you start out with a belief in the scriptures or in the testimonies you hear from someone else, but when you take the "leap of faith" and bear your testimony, it will be confirmed. 

[SouthernMo]

On 8/23/2018 at 1:26 PM, cinepro said:

Or maybe they know something we don't about the rising generation...?

It's really beautiful inside though...

 

That’s a great building. Very spacious!

[Scott Lloyd]

Just now, rockpond said:

Do you think every missionary who ever said the typical words of a testimony actually possessed a testimony?

It is quite possible to say the words without having the conviction behind them.

Yes, I agree it is quite possible to do that.

But that doesn't mean it was typical that missionaries were sent out without having a testimony. Some might not have been honest in their interviews.

[smac97]

16 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I remember being taught that a testimony was gained in the sharing of it, so perhaps having it first is not indispensable.

Elder Packer said this:

Quote

Where to Start

It is not unusual to have a missionary say, “How can I bear testimony until I get one? How can I testify that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, and that the gospel is true? If I do not have such a testimony, would that not be dishonest?”

Oh, if I could teach you this one principle. A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it! Somewhere in your quest for spiritual knowledge, there is that “leap of faith,” as the philosophers call it. It is the moment when you have gone to the edge of the light and stepped into the darkness to discover that the way is lighted ahead for just a footstep or two. “The spirit of man,” is as the scripture says, indeed “is the candle of the Lord.” (Prov. 20:27.)

It is one thing to receive a witness from what you have read or what another has said; and that is a necessary beginning. It is quite another to have the Spirit confirm to you in your bosom that what you have testified is true. Can you not see that it will be supplied as you share it? As you give that which you have, there is a replacement, with increase!

The prophet Ether “did prophecy great and marvelous things unto the people, which they did not believe, because they saw them not.

“And now, I, Moroni, … would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.” (Ether 12:5–6.)

To speak out is the test of your faith.

Elder Packer's comment presupposes that the missionary already has "receive[d] a witness from what [he has] read or what another has said."  He describes this as "a necessary beginning."

Elder Packer then goes on to describe how to proceed from that "beginning," which is to take a "leap of faith" by speaking what you believe.  An inner-held faith becomes something more when it is shared with another person.  

A "testimony" after all, is "a public recounting of a religious conversion or experience."  In other words, it is - or should be - a declaration of what one already believes.  

I think we in the Church sometimes conflate "I have a testimony" with "I have faith."  Sometimes a lexical distinction between the two is warranted.  Sometimes not.

Thanks,

-Smac

EDIT TO ADD: In a legal context, a "witness" in a legal dispute has already experienced the thing that made them acquire the title of "witness."  But until and unless their testimony is properly given and entered into evidence, it doesn't count.  Merely witnessing the event in question isn't enough.  That experience must be shared to be of use to others.

I wonder if Elder Packer had something similar in mind.  We are all, in a sense, "witnesses" of our personal spiritual experiences.  But until and unless we testify to others about those experiences, our worth as witnesses is limited.

Edited August 24, 2018 by smac97

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I vividly remember my first morning in the mission.  I arrived at our apartment very late that night after traveling a couple hours, with my trainer, from the mission president's home.  We shared an apartment with the zone leaders who were already asleep when we arrived.  I set my little alarm clock before going to sleep that night and dutifully woke up at 6:00 or 6:30 the next morning (whatever the little white book told us was the time - I can't recall).  I woke up at the appointed hour but my trainer and the two zone leaders slept for a couple hours after that.  I thought maybe it was just that particular morning but it turned out to be the norm for them.

Thankfully, as I continued in my mission I realized that it wasn't the norm for all... but, that there was a group of missionaries who didn't have a lot of regard for the rules.  As they wrapped up their time in the mission and headed home, things started to change dramatically.

We arrived at the La Paz airport around 8:30 in the morning and were met by the president's two assistants. We threw our suitcases in the back of their Jeep and got in. When the car started, the cassette player was playing AC/DC's "Highway to Hell" at a very loud volume. The one AP laughed and said, "Now, who could have done that?" A few hours later we were having lunch with the mission president and the missionaries who were heading home. One of the missionaries turned to me with a smirk and said, "If I were you, I'd slit my wrists right now." 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

FWIW, here is the whole quote in context. I think I remember it because this was just prior to my mission, and I was reading a lot of church magazines then.

I think what he's saying is that you start out with a belief in the scriptures or in the testimonies you hear from someone else, but when you take the "leap of faith" and bear your testimony, it will be confirmed. 

I quite agree with your conclusion from Elder Packer's words.

But having a testimony "confirmed" presupposes there was something present to begin with.

 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

I quite agree with your conclusion from Elder Packer's words.

But having a testimony "confirmed" presupposes there was something present to begin with.

I think smac got it right that what is present at first is faith. 

[Scott Lloyd]

Just now, jkwilliams said:

I think smac got it right that what is present at first is faith. 

Yes, I agree with Smac as well.

 

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

We arrived at the La Paz airport around 8:30 in the morning and were met by the president's two assistants. We threw our suitcases in the back of their Jeep and got in. When the car started, the cassette player was playing AC/DC's "Highway to Hell" at a very loud volume. The one AP laughed and said, "Now, who could have done that?" A few hours later we were having lunch with the mission president and the missionaries who were heading home. One of the missionaries turned to me with a smirk and said, "If I were you, I'd slit my wrists right now." 

That's a scary way to start your mission!

I'm lucky that in the Buenos Aires North mission (a relatively modern and metropolitan area for South America) we had BOTH the blessing of receptive investigators and a lot of baptisms AND pretty good living conditions (aside from having been mugged, robbed, and having my apartment vandalized... isolated incidences).

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

Yes, I agree with Smac as well.

What happens if you bear your testimony and it isn't confirmed? We had an elder in my mission, a former Jehovah's Witness from Bolivia, who started his mission very enthusiastically. I'm not really sure what happened, but by the time he was my zone leader, he wouldn't bear his testimony at all but would say things like, "The church teaches that the Book of Mormon is true. Members of the church believe Spencer W. Kimball is a living prophet." One of my companions joked about how to bear testimony when you didn't have one: "I know the Book of Mormon is blue (our copies always were). I know that Spencer W. Kimball lives. I know this church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

[jkwilliams]

Just now, rockpond said:

That's a scary way to start your mission!

I'm lucky that in the Buenos Aires North mission (a relatively modern and metropolitan area for South America) we had BOTH the blessing of receptive investigators and a lot of baptisms AND pretty good living conditions (aside from having been mugged, robbed, and having my apartment vandalized... isolated incidences).

The thing is, we were in the La Paz Sheraton at the time. The next day I was freezing in the altiplano in an apartment with no running water and only intermittent electricity.