Jeff Robinson on the LGBT issue at FairMormon

[rockpond]

12 hours ago, CMZ said:

Allow me to clarify that I am not invalidating feelings. I am saying we all need to take a step back and realize that we have all been talking about not the feelings themselves but the story that has been built up around those feelings. Until people grasp this no conversation on the topic will ever be complete.

I understood your comment to indicate that change in sexual orientation is possible for everyone... either in this life or the next.  Did I misunderstand?

[Calm]

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My comment speaks to the high risk of mixed-orientation marriages. 

Do you have quality data on this, including rates for those who enter marriage being fully open with their spouse about attractions?

IIRC, klindley has posted with data showing the success rate isn't that different to marriages where both identify as heterosexual.

I would assume the small group of individuals who are exclusively homosexual has a very low success rate overall, but I am unsure if that is what you mean by the term "gay" or if you are using "gay" to describe all those who identify as gay.  My understanding of the term "mixed orientation marriages" is that it includes any marriage where the orientation of the spouses is different, and thus includes more than just exclusively homosexual marrying exclusively heterosexual.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Calm

[rockpond]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

Do you have quality data on this, including rates for those who enter marriage being fully open with their spouse about attractions?

IIRC, klindley has posted with data showing the success rate isn't that different to marriages where both identify as heterosexual.

I would assume the small group of individuals who are exclusively homosexual has a very low success rate overall, but I am unsure if that is what you mean by the term "gay" or if you are using "gay" to describe all those who identify as gay.  My understanding of the term "mixed orientation marriages" is that it includes any marriage where the orientation of the spouses is different, and thus includes more than just exclusively homosexual marrying exclusively heterosexual.

He and I discussed it and I don't dispute his numbers.

As you know, there are countless things that can go wrong and cause a marriage to fail or be an unhappy situation for all involved even if the couple stays married.  There's no way to eliminate all of those potential issues.

What concerns me is my belief that our current teachings provide just one acceptable option:  man-woman marriage.  For your average 20-something kid, I don't see the "wait until my orientation hopefully changes" and/or "live alone until I die" as options that will feel acceptable to them.  This seems to lead to some of them choosing to hide their sexual orientation and enter a man-woman marriage under the belief that they can make it work as an exercise of faith or love that they feel for the other person.

I do not have a study to confirm this.  Just lots of anecdotal evidence that propels my belief.  Among the anecdotal evidence is @kllindley's story suggesting that it can work out very well.

More than anything, however, is that I have seen wonderful gay young men that I have taught, ministered to, and cared for who have left the church because there was no place for them.  Some of their lives have gone in tragic directions.  Others have done great!

[CMZ]

9 hours ago, rockpond said:

I understood your comment to indicate that change in sexual orientation is possible for everyone... either in this life or the next.  Did I misunderstand?

I believe it's possible for everyone to be able to fully qualify for a celestial, eternal heterosexual marriage, "for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them." We all have different routes to get there and different timelines. This is not about force and I don't think pressuring anyone into something they're not ready for is ever a good idea.

[rockpond]

46 minutes ago, CMZ said:

I believe it's possible for everyone to be able to fully qualify for a celestial, eternal heterosexual marriage, "for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them." We all have different routes to get there and different timelines. This is not about force and I don't think pressuring anyone into something they're not ready for is ever a good idea.

So does that mean that you believe those who are homosexual will be able to change their orientation either in this life or the next?  Or that they won’t but they’ll just reach a point where they feel comfortable marrying someone of the opposite sex anyway?

[CMZ]

24 minutes ago, rockpond said:

So does that mean that you believe those who are homosexual will be able to change their orientation either in this life or the next?  Or that they won’t but they’ll just reach a point where they feel comfortable marrying someone of the opposite sex anyway?

Your question presupposes the stories that I've said are built up around feelings that people may have. I believe the feelings may be real but I believe the narratives people attach to those feelings make the feelings seem more concrete than they are. Exalted people are perfected in every way. There's no exalted person that has just begrudgingly accepted "heterosexuality."

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

So does that mean that you believe those who are homosexual will be able to change their orientation either in this life or the next?

When I was younger, repentance to me what about changing my behaviour. Didn't pray this morning? Well, I can choose to pray tomorrow morning. Mean to my sister? Well, I could choose to be nice later.

Then I got older (and chose to serve a mission) and discovered that one can fake behvaiour. But it's unsustainable. Far more serious is the need for my very nature to change. I tried to choose to change my nature the same way I was used to changing my behavour. It didn't work. At all.

That was the very point that launched my real conversion to Christ. He is indeed mighty to save.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

22 minutes ago, CMZ said:

There's no exalted person that has just begrudgingly accepted "heterosexuality."

In fact, considering that 'heterosexuality' is as much a social construct as 'homosexuality' is, with an equally known genealogy and an equal absence from the historical record, I think we can safely say there will be no heterosexuality amongst the exalted. If we look at our perfect Example, I don't think we see a Man Who was characterised by His sexual attraction to women.

In the 21st-century West, we occupy a historical moment that is so super-saturated in certain notions that we are often incapable of seeing how artificial they all are. One of the antidotes is a real understanding of history, but it's not the only one. Taking prophets seriously certainly helps!

Edited August 21, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[CMZ]

11 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

In fact, considering that 'heterosexuality' is as much a social construct as 'homosexuality' is, with an equally known genealogy and an equal absence from the historical record, I think we can safely say there will be no heterosexuality amongst the exalted. If we look at our perfect Example, I don't think we see a Man Who was characterised by His sexual attraction to women.

In the 21st-century West, we occupy a historical moment that is so super-saturated in certain notions that we are often incapable of seeing how artificial they all are. One of the antidotes is a real understanding of history, but it's not the only one. Taking prophets seriously certainly helps!

Exaaaaaaactly. Hence why I put "heterosexuality" in quotes above. Everyone's going to be running around in circles if the only questions ever asked are ones such as, "Why are some people gay and some people straight? If someone is gay will they be able to change before they are resurrected? How come the Church doesn't accept that gay people exist? Will a person be punished for being gay if it's not their fault?"

[rockpond]

Okay then @CMZ and @Hamba Tuhan... I’m sure all of that will be very useful for counseling some 22 year old RM.  

 

[CMZ]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

Okay then @CMZ and @Hamba Tuhan... I’m sure all of that will be very useful for counseling some 22 year old RM.  

 

Yes, a 22-yr. old RM can be helped by a bishop who understands the situation and sees it is for what it is while not seeing it for more than it is. Every one of us needs to have our individual situations lovingly and understandingly taken into account while we also accept that there are eternal principles that exist for our good, even if immediate compliance with them is not possible. I don't personally agree on one hand with people who say the gospel needs to bend to fit them while I also bristle at the common response to them of, "Just get with the program!" Everyone who deals with this issue needs to and can come to a better understanding of it... which can be done even if we won't be blessed yet with a perfect understanding regarding this topic.

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, CMZ said:

Yes, a 22-yr. old RM can be helped by a bishop who understands the situation and sees it is for what it is while not seeing it for more than it is. Every one of us needs to have our individual situations lovingly and understandingly taken into account while we also accept that there are eternal principles that exist for our good, even if immediate compliance with them is not possible. I don't personally agree on one hand with people who say the gospel needs to bend to fit them while I also bristle at the common response to them of, "Just get with the program!" Everyone who deals with this issue needs to and can come to a better understanding of it... which can be done even if we won't be blessed yet with a perfect understanding regarding this topic.

I pray for those bishops as they haven't been given a lot to work with.

I am not in either camp that you describe:  I don't think the gospel should bend to fit individuals not do I take the attitude of "just get with the program".

Likewise, I don't expect a perfect understanding.  But I do wish we could get a better understanding.  Unfortunately, this week while we painfully wrestled with the issue among the young men in my ward, the "revelation" being received by our prophet had to do with name.

[CMZ]

4 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I pray for those bishops as they haven't been given a lot to work with.

I am not in either camp that you describe:  I don't think the gospel should bend to fit individuals not do I take the attitude of "just get with the program".

Likewise, I don't expect a perfect understanding.  But I do wish we could get a better understanding.  Unfortunately, this week while we painfully wrestled with the issue among the young men in my ward, the "revelation" being received by our prophet had to do with name.

I get it. I could say more but I'm rushing off to work. This prophet seems to be quite active so I wouldn't be more surprised if we get more from him. Elder Andersen posted some very interesting remarks to Facebook yesterday about the revelations President Nelson is receiving.

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 hours ago, rockpond said:

I’m sure all of that will be very useful for counseling some 22 year old RM.  

That has certainly been my experience, yes. Though I wouldn't necessarily recommend waiting till a young man is 22 and an 'RM' before empowering him by teaching correct principles.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, CMZ said:

I get it. I could say more but I'm rushing off to work. This prophet seems to be quite active so I wouldn't be more surprised if we get more from him. Elder Andersen posted some very interesting remarks to Facebook yesterday about the revelations President Nelson is receiving.

I just looked that up and read his comments.  It is beautiful and President Nelson has been a joy to watch in his role as Prophet and President.  I do continue to hope that he'll provide us with some more understanding from on high regarding this LGBT issue because here in the trenches, it's not going too well.

[kllindley]

3 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I just looked that up and read his comments.  It is beautiful and President Nelson has been a joy to watch in his role as Prophet and President.  I do continue to hope that he'll provide us with some more understanding from on high regarding this LGBT issue because here in the trenches, it's not going too well.

And yet so many "in the trenches" refuse to listen to or accept the understanding that has been revealed. 

[rockpond]

26 minutes ago, kllindley said:

And yet so many "in the trenches" refuse to listen to or accept the understanding that has been revealed. 

I've listened but can't accept it as complete because it isn't working.

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, kllindley said:

And yet so many "in the trenches" refuse to listen to or accept the understanding that has been revealed. 

In the trenches...it is a key thing for those who are NOT in the trenches..perhaps those in the latter are unable to really understand.

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

In the trenches...it is a key thing for those who are NOT in the trenches..perhaps those in the latter are unable to really understand.

I spent six years as Young Men president in my ward, followed by serving as the counsellor over Young Men in two different bishoprics. I continue to love and minister to these boys, though all but a handful of them are adults now. (One of them was in my home a few nights ago to get help with an assignment. He is preparing to marry in December.) In my experience, correct principles as taught by prophets are the only thing that has ever really helped these young men.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Jeanne]

48 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I spent six years as Young Men president in my ward, followed by serving as the counsellor over Young Men in two different bishoprics. I continue to love and minister to these boys, though all but a handful of them are adults now. (One of them was in my home a few nights ago to get help with an assignment. He is preparing to marry in December.) In my experience, correct principles as taught by prophets are the only thing that has ever really helped these young men.

I so admire that you find ways to serve others..I cannot think of any other better service than to help young people.  If you listen to young people..which is what we are really talking about, you are a hero to many I am sure.  How do you help those that have problems within the doctrine..specifically in chastity and issues of same sex?  How do you do that? 

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, Jeanne said:

How do you help those that have problems within the doctrine..specifically in chastity and issues of same sex?  How do you do that? 

Simply love them unconditionally and then teach them correct and eternal principles. I have had so many thank me for helping them avoid really dangerous and potentially life-altering pitfalls because we loved them enough to teach them sometimes unpopular truths. 

Edited August 22, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[rockpond]

I’m not suggesting that we stop teaching them correct and eternal principles.  I haven’t.  My questions here have been regarding what we do when those correct and eternal principles fail them because we still await further light and knowledge on this subject. 

Edited August 22, 2018 by rockpond

[CMZ]

22 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I’m not suggesting that we stop teaching them correct and eternal principles.  I haven’t.  My questions here have been regarding what we do when those correct and eternal principles fail them because we still await further light and knowledge on this subject. 

Again I don't have time to write all my thoughts on this but I feel that a personal commitment to deep, lifelong learning of the gospel will go a long ways in this regard. If we say, "I have feelings of same-sex attraction and the Church says all I can do is remain celibate until I die... unless the prophet reveals more information on this matter," then I think we may be missing all sorts of other helpful knowledge.

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Coleen K. Menlove, Primary general president: “Even within the Church there are people who aren’t happy or people who are usually happy but who experience intermittent times of stress, worry, challenge, and discouragement. That, too, is part of the great plan of happiness. Mortality is a time of testing and trial, which means that there must be times when we feel pain and emotional discomfort. However, by patiently trusting in the eternal plan, we can experience daily happiness and have hope for ‘ever-after happiness’” (“Living Happily Ever After,” Ensign, May 2000, 12).

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President Thomas S. Monson: “As we love the temple, touch the temple, and attend the temple, our lives will reflect our faith. As we come to these holy houses of God, as we remember the covenants we make within, we shall be able to bear every trial and overcome each temptation” (Be Your Best Self [1979], 56).

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Elder Richard G. Scott of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles: “When you have taken a determined stand for right, when you have established personal standards and made covenants to keep them, when temptations come and you act according to your standards, you will be reinforced and given strength beyond your own capacity if that is needed. Difficulty comes when you enter the battle of temptation without a fixed plan” (“Do What Is Right,” Ensign, June 1997, 53).

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President Eyring relates:

“Like many of you, I heard the prophet’s words as the voice of the Lord to me. And, also like many of you, I decided to obey those words. Now, since I was a young boy, I have felt the witness that the Book of Mormon is the word of God, that the Father and the Son appeared and spoke with Joseph Smith, and that ancient Apostles came to the Prophet Joseph to restore priesthood keys to the Lord’s Church.

“With that testimony, I have read the Book of Mormon every day for more than 50 years. So perhaps I could reasonably have thought that President Monson’s words were for someone else. Yet, like many of you, I felt the prophet’s encouragement and his promise invite me to make a greater effort. Many of you have done what I did: prayed with increased intent, pondered scripture more intently, and tried harder to serve the Lord and others for Him.

“The happy result for me, and for many of you, has been what the prophet promised. Those of us who took his inspired counsel to heart have heard the Spirit more distinctly. We have found a greater power to resist temptation and have felt greater faith in a resurrected Jesus Christ, in His gospel, and in His living Church.”

https://www.lds.org/blog/the-blessings-of-accepting-the-prophets-invitation-to-the-world?lang=eng

 

 

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Thomas S. Monson:

“I implore each of us to prayerfully study and ponder the Book of Mormon each day. As we do so, we will be in a position to hear the voice of the Spirit, to resist temptation, to overcome doubt and fear, and to receive heaven’s help in our lives. I so testify with all my heart in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.”

 

While we always await further light and knowledge it may well be that quite enough is available right now to help with this matter. It is not enough to be busy in the Church; we must be active in the gospel... always learning it, always living it, always internalizing it. As one does their feelings and emotions will be properly arranged so that they can happily fulfill all of God's commandments. Yes, all of them. I can't comment on every individual's situation and I am sure this may legitimately be a difficulty thing for some and I know everyone has their own timeline. But I also know that in the long run that yielding oneself to the gospel plan will bring about the best results.

[rockpond]

Each person you quoted above spent the majority of their life married to a spouse that they loved.  

But you go ahead and sit across from the gay young man and explain to him that attending the temple (where the crowning ordinance is being sealed to one’s spouse) and reading the Book of Mormon daily will  help him work through this trial.  When you do that, please let me know how it goes. 

[kllindley]

36 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Each person you quoted above spent the majority of their life married to a spouse that they loved.  

But you go ahead and sit across from the gay young man and explain to him that attending the temple (where the crowning ordinance is being sealed to one’s spouse) and reading the Book of Mormon daily will  help him work through this trial.  When you do that, please let me know how it goes. 

You don't know many active LGBT members do you? 

I don't know what you mean when you say "the gay young man." Does he experience exclusively homosexual attractions?  Has this been an enduring pattern of attraction (orientation?) Does he identify as gay?  

Does he understand the doctrine of gender complementarity?  Does he understand the doctrine that our mortal experience is only Act II? Does he understand the science that sexuality is fluid throughout the lifespan? Does he understand that being single does not have to mean being alone?  Does he understand and have personal experience with the Savior's power and ability to provide Grace through the Atonement? Does He understand and have personal experience that the Savior's Grace can offer comfort and succor as well as compensatory and enabling blessings?

You act like understanding these things is not helpful.  That Christ's invitation to live the gospel is too heavy of a burden for some people.  But I testify that His yoke is easy and His burden is light.  Following His plan for us, as revealed and taught through His authorized servants brings peace and joy.  It is the ideologies and false doctrine of the world which are heavy and oppressive.  

The way you and others talk about and define sexuality is fundamentally incompatible with the plan of salvation and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  You're right about that. And as long as you cling to that misunderstanding, you will want the Lord to change the Church.

I can respect that as your belief. Just know that as you do, you minimize and invalidate those of us happy in the Gospel. It is insulting and offensive, even though you make hollow statements like "I'm happy it works for you, but . . . . ." 

I am not saying it's always easy or painless. But LGBT members are not unique in experiencing heartache and difficulty.  In life, we have pain and disappointment. Suffering is optional.