Jeff Robinson on the LGBT issue at FairMormon

[rockpond]

@kllindley

No, I don't know many active LGBT members.  The LGBT members I have known have, sadly, left the church.

By "gay young man", I refer to how one identifies.

38 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Does he understand the doctrine of gender complementarity?  Does he understand the doctrine that our mortal experience is only Act II? Does he understand the science that sexuality is fluid throughout the lifespan? Does he understand that being single does not have to mean being alone?  Does he understand and have personal experience with the Savior's power and ability to provide Grace through the Atonement? Does He understand and have personal experience that the Savior's Grace can offer comfort and succor as well as compensatory and enabling blessings?

You act like understanding these things is not helpful.  That Christ's invitation to live the gospel is too heavy of a burden for some people.  But I testify that His yoke is easy and His burden is light.  Following His plan for us, as revealed and taught through His authorized servants brings peace and joy.  It is the ideologies and false doctrine of the world which are heavy and oppressive.  

The way you and others talk about and define sexuality is fundamentally incompatible with the plan of salvation and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  You're right about that. And as long as you cling to that misunderstanding, you will want the Lord to change the Church.

I can respect that as your belief. Just know that as you do, you minimize and invalidate those of us happy in the Gospel. It is insulting and offensive, even though you make hollow statements like "I'm happy it works for you, but . . . . ." 

I am not saying it's always easy or painless. But LGBT members are not unique in experiencing heartache and difficulty.  In life, we have pain and disappointment. Suffering is optional. 

I assume your list of questions is rhetorical because we're talking about a hypothetical person.  But, the gay young men I have counseled with were all active, priesthood holding members.  They were raised by faithful parents (in one case he was the son of our current bishop).  They had all attended seminary.  One was attending BYU.  Those are things that they had been taught.

Does President Nelson understand those things as well?  I would assume so.  And he seems to have felt a strong need to have a companion.  Of his 75 years of adult life, the amount of time he wasn't either dating a future wife or married to one of his two wives is less than one year.

I thoroughly understand that everyone experiences heartache and difficulty.  And we are called upon to mourn and comfort.  But my testimony, my faith, and my understanding of God's plan for us dictates that we should encourage marriage and family.  And for me, that includes allowing people to marry the person they love and who they feel they can most successfully grow with... with whom they can best navigate the pain and disappointment you mention... regardless of gender.

[CMZ]

3 hours ago, rockpond said:

Each person you quoted above spent the majority of their life married to a spouse that they loved.  

But you go ahead and sit across from the gay young man and explain to him that attending the temple (where the crowning ordinance is being sealed to one’s spouse) and reading the Book of Mormon daily will  help him work through this trial.  When you do that, please let me know how it goes. 

I can't comment on every individual situation. But, yes, nobody's personal trial somehow exempts them from living the gospel. And as they do they will see over time how it is actually benefiting them. I feel that there will be difficulties for someone if they hold the living of gospel standards hostage unless and until the prophet tells them a better way to pray the gay away. Better to take advantage of the resources that are available now. As they read The Book of Mormon they will read about families with a father and mother and how there must be opposition (complementarity in this case) in all things. As they attend the temple they will have impressed upon them the journey each person takes in mortality and see the symbolism of men and women entering the temple and separating for a time, this in addition to Eve being separated from Adam, until they can come back together in a joyous union. These teachings are readily available but because they are not forced on us some will miss their importance. In none of this is force or coercion involved and everyone's individual situation and timeline will be lovingly taken into account. As someone who wasn't married until I was 45 (in the Newport Beach Temple) I can understand the temptation that many fall into that feel they should stop living the gospel because what appears to have been promised to them hasn't materialized yet and seems like it may never materialize. And I do know that some have given into that thinking. But despite the difficulties of my personal situation I knew that none of it erased eternal gospel truths. And this applies in other situations that are not exactly like mine. It may not cure everything but something substantial occurs in one's life when a conscious decision is made to live the gospel no matter what. Keep in mind that being born into the Church and going through the motions of church activity is not the same as being active in the gospel.

Edited August 22, 2018 by CMZ

[rockpond]

51 minutes ago, CMZ said:

I can't comment on every individual situation. But, yes, nobody's personal trial somehow exempts them from living the gospel. And as they do they will see over time how it is actually benefiting them. I feel that there will be difficulties for someone if they hold the living of gospel standards hostage unless and until the prophet tells them a better way to pray the gay away. Better to take advantage of the resources that are available now. As they read The Book of Mormon they will read about families with a father and mother and how there must be opposition (complementarity in this case) in all things. As they attend the temple they will have impressed upon them the journey each person takes in mortality and see the symbolism of men and women entering the temple and separating for a time, this in addition to Eve being separated from Adam, until they can come back together in a joyous union. These teachings are readily available but because they are not forced on us some will miss their importance. In none of this is force or coercion involved and everyone's individual situation and timeline will be lovingly taken into account. As someone who wasn't married until I was 45 (in the Newport Beach Temple) I can understand the temptation that many fall into that feel they should stop living the gospel because what appears to have been promised to them hasn't materialized yet and seems like it may never materialize. And I do know that some have given into that thinking. But despite the difficulties of my personal situation I knew that none of it erased eternal gospel truths. And this applies in other situations that are not exactly like mine. It may not cure everything but something substantial occurs in one's life when a conscious decision is made to live the gospel no matter what. Keep in mind that being born into the Church and going through the motions of church activity is not the same as being active in the gospel.

Well, I am not arguing in favor of anyone being exempted from living the gospel.

[kllindley]

3 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Well, I am not arguing in favor of anyone being exempted from living the gospel.

But you are denying the doctrine of gender complementarity, right?

[rockpond]

32 minutes ago, kllindley said:

But you are denying the doctrine of gender complementarity, right?

No, but I don't think the opposite gender is always the complementary gender for every individual.

[kllindley]

8 minutes ago, rockpond said:

No, but I don't think the opposite gender is always the complementary gender for every individual.

Which is like saying believe in democracy, I just don't want to let the people vote. 

[rockpond]

6 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Which is like saying believe in democracy, I just don't want to let the people vote. 

Nope.  It's more like acknowledging the reality of sexual orientation differences and what those mean.

[kllindley]

21 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Nope.  It's more like acknowledging the reality of sexual orientation differences and what those mean.

Okay. So you just reject complimentary as taught by the Church?

[rockpond]

48 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Okay. So you just reject complimentary as taught by the Church?

Yep.  I assume that doesn't surprise you at this point in our conversations.

[kllindley]

3 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Yep.  I assume that doesn't surprise you at this point in our conversations.

No, it doesn't. That is why, in light of the unambiguous teaching of gender complementarity, your comment to CMZ about 

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

not arguing in favor of anyone being exempted from living the gospel.

Seemed confusing. 

[rockpond]

4 minutes ago, kllindley said:

No, it doesn't. That is why, in light of the unambiguous teaching of gender complementarity, your comment to CMZ about 

Seemed confusing. 

Male-female gender complementarity seems quite tangential to the gospel of Jesus Christ, but that's my testimony.  Yours may well differ.

In any case, I believe everyone should have a helpmeet in this life and the life to come (and the appropriate, complementary helpmeet may not be someone of the opposite sex).

[kllindley]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

Male-female gender complementarity seems quite tangential to the gospel of Jesus Christ, but that's my testimony.  Yours may well differ.

It does. My testimony is that marriage between a man and a woman is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children.

 

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

In any case, I believe everyone should have a helpmeet in this life and the life to come (and the appropriate, complementary helpmeet may not be someone of the opposite sex).

Everyone should have a helpmeet in this life? I don't share that expectation. 

[rockpond]

3 minutes ago, kllindley said:

It does. My testimony is that marriage between a man and a woman is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children.

 

Everyone should have a helpmeet in this life? I don't share that expectation. 

Yes, I too believe that marriage is central to the Creator's plan for the eternal destiny of His children.  I don't see it as needing to be exclusively man-woman.  That's my testimony.

As for a help meet, I'm sure you are already familiar with these...

Abraham 5:14 says "And the Gods said: Let us make an help meet for the man, for it is not good that the man should be alone, therefore we will form an help meet for him."

Moses 3:18 "And I, the Lord God, said unto mine Only Begotten, that it was not good that the man should be alone; wherefore, I will make an help meet for him."

Genesis 2:18 "And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him ban help meet for him."

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

9 hours ago, rockpond said:

Each person you quoted above spent the majority of their life married to a spouse that they loved.  

As have you, I'm guessing.

I haven't. I have spent my entire life single and, at this point, presume that I will conclude my life that way.

And yet here you are, repeatedly insisting that the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is somehow insufficient for me. Thankfully, I know from long personal experience that you are wrong ... deadly so. The Gospel is indeed the Good News. Christ is indeed mighty to save. There is an abundance of peace and joy and hope in Zion. God is a faithful keeper of all His promises.

And then I wonder, what exactly do you get out of peddling despair instead? 

Edited August 22, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 hours ago, CMZ said:

Something substantial occurs in one's life when a conscious decision is made to live the gospel no matter what.

Beautifully understated!

[rockpond]

46 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

As have you, I'm guessing.

I haven't. I have spent my entire life single and, at this point, presume that I will conclude my life that way.

And yet here you are, repeatedly insisting that the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is somehow insufficient for me. Thankfully, I know from long personal experience that you are wrong ... deadly so. The Gospel is indeed the Good News. Christ is indeed mighty to save. There is an abundance of peace and joy and hope in Zion. God is a faithful keeper of all His promises.

And then I wonder, what exactly do you get out of peddling despair instead? 

I have not yet gotten to where my time with my spouse represents a majority of my life, but I do hope to get there. 

Yours is a wonderful and important viewpoint.  My dear sister walks a similar path and feels that she likely will not marry. 

But I haven’t said that the gospel is insufficient for you.  Or her.  And, I pray that its promises give you great hope for all that you desire. 

And if you do fine someone you care about, the help meet you desire, and the feeling is mutual I would hope that the teachings of the Church would not prevent you from entering a marriage. 

And those two points are where I struggle with the current position of the Church:  the loss of hope and the denying of what could otherwise be a fruitful relationship. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 hours ago, rockpond said:

But I haven’t said that the gospel is insufficient for you.

Yes, you have. Repeatedly. You don't get to disparage the sufficiency of attending the temple, reading the Book of Mormon, praying every day, serving faithfully in one's calling, etc., and then when you're called out on it, backpedal and claim that you haven't. It's demeaning and offensive.

Quote

I pray that its promises give you great hope for all that you desire. 

All that I desire is to follow the example of King Laman and give away all my sins to know God, to follow the example of the Saviour and say, sincerely, 'Nevertheless, not my will, but thine, be done'. I have complete confidence that the Father knows what to do with me as I daily seek to live up to these two desires.

Quote

And if you do fine someone you care about, the help meet you desire, and the feeling is mutual I would hope that the teachings of the Church would not prevent you from entering a marriage. 

Many years ago, I accepted a contract to work on an island in the West Indies, where I attended a small branch of the church. My very first Sunday, I met the Relief Society president and thought she was nice. Later, her regular lift to church was away, so she asked me to pick her up over the course of several weeks. I enjoyed every moment we spent in the car together, and she started staying in the car longer and longer each time I dropped her home. We bumped into each other at the shops one Saturday and spent a solid three hours just talking in the cleaning aisle. It was fantastic.

I'll be really honest. I loved being with this woman, and she loved being with me. It was the most compatible, enjoyable relationship I've ever had with a woman. Being with me made her sparkle. We were perfect for each other.

And to make it all better, she was a faithful Church member, a returned missionary, and a diligent Relief Society president. She was also married.

Do you likewise struggle with the teachings of the Church that prevented the two of us from entering into a marriage with each other? What do you believe God expected me to do in this situation?

Edited August 23, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[rockpond]

18 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Yes, you have. Repeatedly. You don't get to disparage the sufficiency of attending the temple, reading the Book of Mormon, praying every day, serving faithfully in one's calling, etc., and then when you're called out on it, backpedal and claim that you haven't. It's demeaning and offensive.

All that I desire is to follow the example of King Laman and give away all my sins to know God, to follow the example of the Saviour and say, sincerely, 'Nevertheless, not my will, but thine, be done'. I have complete confidence that the Father knows what to do with me as I daily seek to live up to these two desires.

Many years ago, I accepted a contract to work on an island in the West Indies, where I attended a small branch of the church. My very first Sunday, I met the Relief Society president and thought she was nice. Later, her regular lift to church was away, so she asked me to pick her up over the course of several weeks. I enjoyed every moment we spent in the car together, and she started staying in the car longer and longer each time I dropped her home. We bumped into each other at the shops one Saturday and spent a solid three hours just talking in the cleaning aisle. It was fantastic.

I'll be really honest. I loved being with this woman, and she loved being with me. It was the most compatible, enjoyable relationship I've ever had with a woman. Being with me made her sparkle. We were perfect for each other.

And to make it all better, she was a faithful Church member, a returned missionary, and a diligent Relief Society president. She was also married.

Do you likewise struggle with the teachings of the Church that prevented the two of us from entering into a marriage with each other? What do you believe God expected me to do in this situation?

I'm sorry if you felt that I disparaged you or living the gospel.  It certainly wasn't intended that way.

As I said, I know there are many who live this life without a spouse. In addition to the sister that I mentioned earlier, I had a great friend and coworker where I previously worked who never married.  I have stayed in touch with her in the decade since I left that company and she is remains single but loves the gospel, loves serving, and loves her interactions with the Saints.  Her life is beautiful and full.  She is an amazing daughter of God.  For the life of me, I can't figure out why nobody was ever wise enough to woo, court, and marry her.

I never asked but I would expect that she, like you, would say that her life of living the gospel has not just been sufficient but a great blessing.

As for you not being able to marry a married woman?  No, I don't struggle with that.  She was already committed to someone else.  She and her husband had already made a covenant.

 

Closer to the subject at hand...

I feel that I have been consistent here (speaking of the boards in general, though probably not enough in THIS thread) in honoring those LGBT members who choose to live celibate lives in order to stay in the Church because that is what their faith and testimony guide them to do.  For those who feel called to do that, I honor them.

In this thread, my comments have been directed at the options that I believe should be available to our gay brothers and sisters and the risks inherent in some of our teachings on the matter.  It doesn't mean that a life of gospel living would be insufficient.  It reflects my belief in the beauty of marriage, the growth that one can experience in the institution, and it's place in God's plan for His children.

[Hamba Tuhan]

45 minutes ago, rockpond said:

No, I don't struggle with that.  She was already committed to someone else.  She and her husband had already made a covenant.

So, as our branch president, you would have urged us to place fidelity to covenants above our deepest personal desires? Would you have worried, at all, that such a teaching -- or the potential despair therein -- might have posed any inherent risks to us? That your advice might have limited our potential growth? That you were cutting us off from something truly beautiful?

45 minutes ago, rockpond said:

.... members who choose to live celibate lives in order to stay in the Church ...

I don't think you have any idea how demeaning this sounds again. I don't choose to live a celibate live 'in order to stay in the Church'. I choose to live a chaste life because I love the Lord, and that is what He requires of all His disciples.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[CMZ]

6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I have spent my entire life single and, at this point, presume that I will conclude my life that way.

I was quite sure that would be the case for me.

[CMZ]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

In this thread, my comments have been directed at the options that I believe should be available to our gay brothers and sisters and the risks inherent in some of our teachings on the matter. 

I believe this position is well-intended. It's not taking into account though knowledge that can give a better understanding of the matter. God is not clear about the need for man/woman marriage so that he can just make things difficult for some. There really are extremely good reasons for it, and those reasons preclude anyone with a sufficient understanding of the Restored Gospel from thinking that same-sex marriage in this life is beneficial for anyone. If we all could just gaze into heaven for five minutes I think a lot of questions and befuddlement on this issue would dissipate away.

[california boy]

These discussions always lead no where because there are very defined lines that are not going to change.  The church is quite clear.  If you are gay, you have two choices, marry a woman and good luck, or stay celibate and miss out on a part of life that the church values very highly for the rest of the membership of the church.  Yes it is that simple.  I don't begrudge anyone who makes either choice.  I wish them a happy and fulfilling life.  If neither option is a good one for you, then you are out.  An apostate and your children can not be baptized until 18 and disavow your relationship.

The good news is if those options don't work for you, then you still have the option of a wonderful fulfilling life outside the church along with the 99.9% of people who are not members.  You may leave the church, but you don't have to leave God.  He is much bigger than the church.  There are a lot of very happy people outside the church as well as unhappy ones.  No guarantees with that decision either.  But it is your life.  You get to choose how you live it.  I know a lot of gay ex members of the church and they have no regrets in leaving the church.  They have found happy and productive lives with that decision.  I don't know any who have decided it was a mistake to leave the church and gone back. That says something to me.

As most of you already know.  I am one of those guys.  I have no regrets in leaving the church.  It was the right decision for me.  I diligently tried plan A.  It didn't work.  I am glad I had enough courage to make what has undoubtedly been the hardest decision of my life. As far as the discussion on this board?  No matter what your position, it is not your life and you can not say what is right or wrong for anyone.  What you can do is show love and respect each persons right to live their lives as they see fit.  Their relationship between them and God is exactly that, their relationship, not yours.

[rockpond]

9 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

So, as our branch president, you would have urged us to place fidelity to covenants above our deepest personal desires? Would you have worried, at all, that such a teaching -- or the potential despair therein -- might have posed any inherent risks to us? That your advice might have limited our potential growth? That you were cutting us off from something truly beautiful?

Yes.  Possibly.  No.  No.

10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I don't think you have any idea how demeaning this sounds again. I don't choose to live a celibate live 'in order to stay in the Church'. I choose to live a chaste life because I love the Lord, and that is what He requires of all His disciples.

I'm glad you don't choose to live a celibate life.  If you are not an LGBT member who has chosen to live a celibate life than my comment wasn't directed toward you and couldn't possibly be demeaning toward you.

[rockpond]

8 hours ago, CMZ said:

I believe this position is well-intended. It's not taking into account though knowledge that can give a better understanding of the matter. God is not clear about the need for man/woman marriage so that he can just make things difficult for some. There really are extremely good reasons for it, and those reasons preclude anyone with a sufficient understanding of the Restored Gospel from thinking that same-sex marriage in this life is beneficial for anyone. If we all could just gaze into heaven for five minutes I think a lot of questions and befuddlement on this issue would dissipate away.

Well, you are incorrect there... I have a sufficient understanding of the Restored Gospel and I still believe that same-sex marriage in this life is beneficial for some.  We don't have to agree on this but you don't get to make claims about what I understand or don't understand.

[CMZ]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

Well, you are incorrect there... I have a sufficient understanding of the Restored Gospel and I still believe that same-sex marriage in this life is beneficial for some.  We don't have to agree on this but you don't get to make claims about what I understand or don't understand.

Someone who understands more may indeed be able to claim that. There's certain points that are clearly evident to me that you innocently seem to be missing. But this is not about winning an argument nor putting someone else in their place... and I hope that's understood. Companionship is a great thing, but companionship of any type at any cost is not... even with all the emphasis the Church places on marriage. Getting into the wrong type of relationship will make it harder to eventually get into the correct type of relationship.

Quote

“The most important single thing that any Latter-day Saint ever does in this world is to marry the right person, in the right place, by the right authority.”

https://www.lds.org/new-era/2004/10/whom-shall-i-marry?lang=eng

I was at a Deseret Book yesterday and saw a book there called "Resolving Homosexual Problems" written by someone who had dealt with it before. On the back cover it said something like that a portion of the proceeds go towards promoting a correct understanding of homosexuality. Now, I didn't read the book beyond seeing the front cover and glancing at the back cover, but I got the feeling that maybe this author also understands, as Hamba Tuhan does, that the whole "sexual orientation" thing is a social construct of fairly recent invention, this idea that people have a mostly unchangeable or completely unchangeable attraction towards those of a particular gender. On one hand we do a disservice to people who may truly be experiencing feelings of same-sex attraction if we act like there's no substance to those feelings whatsoever, but on the other hand we do them a different disservice when we build up more of a narrative around those feelings than is truly warranted. The feelings may be powerful and they may be long-lasting but they can be educated and influenced properly. Being raised in the Church, going on a mission, going to BYU, going to ward potlucks, helping with Mormon Helping Hands, etc., is not enough if it's not coupled with an individual internalization of the gospel. And while it is really not my personal concern and I'm not the one appointed to police any of this I have never seen one single instance of someone who says they struggle with feelings of same-sex attraction who gives any evidence that they have truly internalized the gospel; all the evidence that's ever given is just of existing within the milieu of the Church. Of course this is the case with many members, whether they have feelings of same-sex attraction or not.

Edited August 23, 2018 by CMZ