Jeanne Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 12 hours ago, kiwi57 said: Then perhaps you should have. If we can't confidently say that President Monson is better than an accuser who has no regard for truth, then it doesn't seem that we can say anything at all. Is it that you don't have a problem with Josh's accusation because you align with his position more readily than mine? I don't President Monson and I don't know Josh.
kiwi57 Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 2 hours ago, Jeanne said: I don't President Monson and I don't know Josh. That's a cop-out. You know what he wrote.
Josh Khinder Posted January 24, 2018 Posted January 24, 2018 On 1/20/2018 at 2:45 PM, Jeanne said: I did not..perhaps we all need a reminder around here..yes me!! That we shouldn't judge one another. We don't get to say who is better than someone else. The true church must have no paid ministry (Acts 20:33-34; John 10:11-13) I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. - Acts 20:33-34 *** I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is a hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is a hireling, and careth not for the sheep. - John 10:11-13 For the record, I am not paid to minister so I am not defending myself. These passages are taken out of context. Neither the New Testament nor the Old Testament forbids paying ministers. The Mormons claim to have restored the Levitical priesthood. If this were true, they would expect to live off the offerings of the people. The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance. - Deuteronomy 18:1 In letter to the Corinthians, Paul said: I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service. - 2 Corinthians 11:8 *** If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. - 1 Corinthians 9:11-12 When Jesus first sent His apostles out, He said for them to bring nothing because he expected them to be provided for. Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. - Matthew 10:10 Though the LDS Church makes this claim, it is hard to believe that none of the leaders in the LDS Church receive any compensation. And if they do, does not this disqualify the LDS Church from being the real church of Jesus Christ? http://www.the-gospel.org/stdy_aplgy/17_points_mormonism.php#_139
readstoomuch Posted January 24, 2018 Posted January 24, 2018 So Josh, what's your dog in this fight? What religion do you come from? Former Lds? Other? If it is religious or whatever, can we take your leaders and walk them through the same paces that they want to put Thomas S Monson through.
Josh Khinder Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 11 hours ago, readstoomuch said: So Josh, what's your dog in this fight? What religion do you come from? Former Lds? Other? If it is religious or whatever, can we take your leaders and walk them through the same paces that they want to put Thomas S Monson through. I'm a traditional Christian who's been going to Church since the 1940s, also went to a private Christian school as a youngster
stemelbow Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 On 1/19/2018 at 7:56 PM, rodheadlee said: Well 90k for a car isn't all that much, have you priced a Chevy Suburban recently,? 90K won't buy you a 5,6 or 7 series BMW but it will buy you a Benz station wagon. Those numbers aren't all that eyeopening. I have built houses for literally hundreds, maybe thousands of people worth that or more. 150k a year isn't enough money to live in the Bay Area and have a family. The guy was over 90 years old that is 2 life times of managing your money That's not true. The average bay area household income is around $91,000. Meaning there are tons of families in that area who make much less than that. The problem, of course is, class levels and the growing gap between the rich and the poor.
rodheadlee Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 43 minutes ago, stemelbow said: That's not true. The average bay area household income is around $91,000. Meaning there are tons of families in that area who make much less than that. The problem, of course is, class levels and the growing gap between the rich and the poor. They are considering offering assistance to home owners making less than 250k in Palo Alto. I guess your average includes all the homeless that flock to SF.
readstoomuch Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 16 hours ago, Josh Khinder said: I'm a traditional Christian who's been going to Church since the 1940s, also went to a private Christian school as a youngster So, I take it that your Church reads the same scriptures. There would be a difference between Roman Catholic and independent non-denominational, but can we go back and look at the same scriptures about how they would correspond to your Church`s beliefs and then go back and start picking away at President Monson?
Josh Khinder Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 1 hour ago, readstoomuch said: So, I take it that your Church reads the same scriptures. There would be a difference between Roman Catholic and independent non-denominational, but can we go back and look at the same scriptures about how they would correspond to your Church`s beliefs and then go back and start picking away at President Monson? None of my Churches say we don't have a paid clergy , when we do . 1
Stargazer Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 On 1/7/2018 at 11:11 PM, Marcelo said: The site below informs that Thomas S Monson had bought a new Lexus car of 90K USD e owned 3 others luxuries cars with a total net worth of USD 810 K. The information seems crazy to me. Can anyone confirm or deny this information: https://finapp.co.in/thomas-s-monson-net-worth/ Thanks! To add to my earlier response, I don't know about economic conditions in Brazil, but what seems like a huge pile of money to someone in certain other countries isn't really all that huge in the USA. And I doubt that President Monson owned any cars at all in his later years. 1
kiwi57 Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 2 hours ago, Josh Khinder said: None of my Churches say we don't have a paid clergy , when we do . Let's see. We have 3,344 stakes, 540 districts and 30,430 wards and branches. On the back of my napkin, that turns out to be approximately 91,290 unpaid volunteers leading congregations and administering the Church at the local level. This is what is correctly and honestly described as "an unpaid ministry." And that doesn't even touch the dozens of additional people in every congregation, also unpaid, who serve in various capacities. That's what an unpaid ministry looks like. Only the most spitefully malicious critics would deny that. Now, to administer the Church at a supra-national level, naturally there have to be some leaders who serve on a full-time basis; and who, therefore, are compensated for having given up their time. This is not a secret, and nobody who knows better has ever tried to deny it. That you should try to gin up a spiteful accusation of dishonesty because there are a few hundred exceptions to the overwhelmingly pervasive rule says far more about you than it does about the targets of your hatred and bigotry.
readstoomuch Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 I am one of those non paid clergy and I can tell you that it costs me quite a bit of money and time to fulfill my calling. Even if we have 1000 paid “clergy,” which I doubt, for 15,000,000 members. Isn’t that one in 15,000 is paid clergy. What percentage of the church has to be unpaid before it has a lay clergy. Is it 1% or less, because we seem to be there by far. Josh seems to be getting some of his information from a site that does “cult” apologetics. Yes, I went to it and looked around. Let`s talk about the leader that someone sees each week at church being able to tell them what they need to be hear-even though their living depends on the congregation. I have attended churches where I really questioned their ability to do so. 1
Josh Khinder Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 15 hours ago, kiwi57 said: Let's see. We have 3,344 stakes, 540 districts and 30,430 wards and branches. On the back of my napkin, that turns out to be approximately 91,290 unpaid volunteers leading congregations and administering the Church at the local level. This is what is correctly and honestly described as "an unpaid ministry." And that doesn't even touch the dozens of additional people in every congregation, also unpaid, who serve in various capacities. That's what an unpaid ministry looks like. Only the most spitefully malicious critics would deny that. Now, to administer the Church at a supra-national level, naturally there have to be some leaders who serve on a full-time basis; and who, therefore, are compensated for having given up their time. This is not a secret, and nobody who knows better has ever tried to deny it. That you should try to gin up a spiteful accusation of dishonesty because there are a few hundred exceptions to the overwhelmingly pervasive rule says far more about you than it does about the targets of your hatred and bigotry. I'm an unpaid volunteer at my Church doing custodial work on Monday mornings so just think how many of us are in the Tradition Christian world
kiwi57 Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 17 hours ago, Josh Khinder said: I'm an unpaid volunteer at my Church doing custodial work on Monday mornings so just think how many of us are in the Tradition Christian world No-one denies that, Josh. But in the traditional Christian world, those who lead congregations are traditionally paid. That is the material difference, and that's what we're talking about when we describe ourselves as having an unpaid ministry.
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