Pronoun help with Isaiah 53:10-11

[nuclearfuels]

Hi all, I could really use some help with this chapter's pronouns from Hebrew, Aramaic, or Isaiah-anical languages and context sources. Are my guesses below correct? 

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he (Jesus) shall grow up before him (God the Father) as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he (Jesus) hath no form nor comeliness; and when we (humanity) shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 Jesus is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; Jesus was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 ¶ Surely Jesus hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God (the Father), and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord (Jehovah? God the Father?) hath laid on him (Jesus) the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He (Jesus) was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my (Isaiah's people? God the Father's people?) people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 ¶ Yet it pleased the Lord (Jehovah? God the Father?) to bruise him (mortal Jesus);

he ((Jehovah? God the Father?) hath put him (mortal Jesus) to grief:

when thou ((Jehovah? God the Father?)) shalt make his (Jesus on earth) soul an offering for sin, he (God the Father/ Jehovah/Jesus?????) shall see his (God the Father/ Jehovah/Jesus?????) seed, he (??????) shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his (????????????????) hand.

11 He (God the Father?) shall see of the travail of his (Jesus') soul, and shall be satisfied: by his (God the Father's) knowledge shall my righteous servant (Jesus) justify many; for he (Jesus) shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I (God the Father?) divide him a portion with the great, and he (Jesus?) shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he (Jesus/God the Father?)  hath poured out his (Jesus) soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Hi all, I could really use some help with this chapter's pronouns from Hebrew, Aramaic, or Isaiah-anical languages and context sources. Are my guesses below correct? 

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he (Jesus) shall grow up before him (God the Father) as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he (Jesus) hath no form nor comeliness; and when we (humanity) shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 Jesus is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; Jesus was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 ¶ Surely Jesus hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God (the Father), and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord (Jehovah? God the Father?) hath laid on him (Jesus) the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He (Jesus) was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my (Isaiah's people? God the Father's people?) people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 ¶ Yet it pleased the Lord (Jehovah? God the Father?) to bruise him (mortal Jesus);

he ((Jehovah? God the Father?) hath put him (mortal Jesus) to grief:

when thou ((Jehovah? God the Father?)) shalt make his (Jesus on earth) soul an offering for sin, he (God the Father/ Jehovah/Jesus?????) shall see his (God the Father/ Jehovah/Jesus?????) seed, he (??????) shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his (????????????????) hand.

11 He (God the Father?) shall see of the travail of his (Jesus') soul, and shall be satisfied: by his (God the Father's) knowledge shall my righteous servant (Jesus) justify many; for he (Jesus) shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I (God the Father?) divide him a portion with the great, and he (Jesus?) shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he (Jesus/God the Father?)  hath poured out his (Jesus) soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

One good rule to follow is that (1) whenever the KJV has LORD (in caps) that translates YHWH/Jehovah.  That should help make sense of the rest of the passage.  However, always bear in mind that YHWH is a title, not a name.

Jewish scholars have recently noted that such Suffering Servant passages in Isaiah are messianic in nature, and were so interpreted at Qumran by the Essenes -- thus predating Jesus and the Christian Church.

Knohl, Israel.  The Messiah Before Jesus: The Suffering Servant of the Dead Sea Scrolls, trans. D. Maisel, S. Mark Taper Foundation Book in Jewish Studies.  Downloadable as an eBook at www.ebooks.com .  Berkeley: U.C. Press, 2000.

Wise, Michael.  The First Messiah: Investigating the Savior Before Christ.  S.F.: Harper San Francisco, 1999.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

[theplains]

12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

One good rule to follow is that (1) whenever the KJV has LORD (in caps) that translates YHWH/Jehovah.  That should help make sense of the rest of the passage.  However, always bear in mind that YHWH is a title, not a name.

Is Yahweh a name derived from the title YHWH?

Thanks,
Jim

[Robert F. Smith]

24 minutes ago, theplains said:

Is Yahweh a name derived from the title YHWH?

Thanks,
Jim

Yes.  That is how scholars reconstruct it from the bare consonantal Tetragrammaton YHWH, because the vowels accompanying it are the vowels for Adonai ( which is to be the reading in place of YHWH).

[nuclearfuels]

On 11/18/2017 at 12:53 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

One good rule to follow is that (1) whenever the KJV has LORD (in caps) that translates YHWH/Jehovah.  That should help make sense of the rest of the passage.  However, always bear in mind that YHWH is a title, not a name.

Jewish scholars have recently noted that such Suffering Servant passages in Isaiah are messianic in nature, and were so interpreted at Qumran by the Essenes -- thus predating Jesus and the Christian Church.

Knohl, Israel.  The Messiah Before Jesus: The Suffering Servant of the Dead Sea Scrolls, trans. D. Maisel, S. Mark Taper Foundation Book in Jewish Studies.  Downloadable as an eBook at www.ebooks.com .  Berkeley: U.C. Press, 2000.

Wise, Michael.  The First Messiah: Investigating the Savior Before Christ.  S.F.: Harper San Francisco, 1999.

Thanks so much, Robert! I am going to read those books. It's really verse 10 that confuses me more than the rest of hte chapter which seems to be a contrast/chiasmus of YHWH and the Messiah. 

Can you tell me more about how YHWH is a title not a name?

And I'd also really appreciate hearing your opinion about whether the Hosanna shout in 3 Ne. 11:14–17 is a past tense request for salvation to granted (Did the Savior already provide them salvation and they were shouting the past tense version of Hosanna?) or future tense?

[RevTestament]

On 11/17/2017 at 12:44 PM, nuclearfuels said:

Hi all, I could really use some help with this chapter's pronouns from Hebrew, Aramaic, or Isaiah-anical languages and context sources. Are my guesses below correct? 

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he (Jesus) shall grow up before him (God the Father) as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he (Jesus) hath no form nor comeliness; and when we (humanity) shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 Jesus is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; Jesus was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 ¶ Surely Jesus hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God (the Father), and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord (Jehovah? God the Father?) hath laid on him (Jesus) the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He (Jesus) was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my (Isaiah's people? God the Father's people?) people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 ¶ Yet it pleased the Lord (Jehovah? God the Father?) to bruise him (mortal Jesus);

he ((Jehovah? God the Father?) hath put him (mortal Jesus) to grief:

when thou ((Jehovah? God the Father?)) shalt make his (Jesus on earth) soul an offering for sin, he (God the Father/ Jehovah/Jesus?????) shall see his (God the Father/ Jehovah/Jesus?????) seed, he (??????) shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his (????????????????) hand.

11 He (God the Father?) shall see of the travail of his (Jesus') soul, and shall be satisfied: by his (God the Father's) knowledge shall my righteous servant (Jesus) justify many; for he (Jesus) shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I (God the Father?) divide him a portion with the great, and he (Jesus?) shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he (Jesus/God the Father?)  hath poured out his (Jesus) soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

This, is a reference to the song of the lamb sung only by those who can learn it.

How was Yeshua taken from prison and from judgement? Doesn't He tell us the Father had given all judgment unto Him?

[Robert F. Smith]

13 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Thanks so much, Robert! I am going to read those books. It's really verse 10 that confuses me more than the rest of hte chapter which seems to be a contrast/chiasmus of YHWH and the Messiah. 

Can you tell me more about how YHWH is a title not a name?

Like Semitic 'El "God," Yahweh is a descriptive epithet which can apply to any qualified god. As Hugh Nibley put it:

Quote

All the worlds are organized in a common pattern, . . in all the worlds you will find God alone rules but with a presidency of three and a council of twelve.  This is the rule of all worlds.  The repetitions are infinite in number and scope . . . .  As a Yeu becomes a Father, the Father then appoints new Yeus (Jehovahs) for new worlds who in turn become Fathers, etc. (cf. First Jeu 48:8; 50:1-3; 97:25-28; Pistis Sophia I, 91, 94; III, 285, 319, 329-330; IV, 355:15,23, 370:10,19,24).  Nibley, "Apocryphal Writings," FARMS Preliminary Report N-APO, p. 13

 

13 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

And I'd also really appreciate hearing your opinion about whether the Hosanna shout in 3 Ne. 11:14–17 is a past tense request for salvation to granted (Did the Savior already provide them salvation and they were shouting the past tense version of Hosanna?) or future tense?

Hosanna has no tense, and is a Jewish (and Mormon) exclamatory liturgical term.  You can see this at Mormon temple dedications, in the Book of Mormon (1 Nephi 11:6, 3 Nephi 4:32-33, 11:17 = Matthew 21:9), in biblical texts (Psalm 118:25-26, 2 Maccabees 10:5-8; Mark 11:9-10, John 12:13; cf. D&C 109:79), and especially during the Jewish Feasts of Passover, Weeks, Tabernacles, and Hanukka.  For example, the final day of Tabernacles is called Hoshana Rabbah (“Hosanna in the Highest” or “the Great, Save Us Now”).

Coming from the same root as the name of Jesus (yšˁ), it is Hebrew Hošiˁan-naʼ “Please, Save Us! Save now! Oh, please save (us)!" an emphatic imperative verb with precative particle, later becoming an acclamation connected with the waving of palm fronds -- as when Jesus enters Jerusalem as King his final week.  We and other Christians also use it in our hymns.

[nuclearfuels]

Thanks Robert.

Always nice to get some more Nibley.

[Palerider]

On 11/20/2017 at 9:34 AM, nuclearfuels said:

It's really verse 10 that confuses me more than the rest of hte chapter which seems to be a contrast/chiasmus of YHWH and the Messiah. 

Isaiah 53:10

"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou (Israel) shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he (Christ) shall see his (Christ's) seed, he (God the Father) shall prolong his (Christ's) days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand."

Because Christ sacrificed his earthly life on our behalf and his "generation" was cut off from the world, he is blessed with us, his seed (children) when we "make his soul an offering" for our sins. We become the children of Christ/God.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Palerider
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