No YHWH in the New Testament -Implications

[amo]

A good JW friend of mine was really surprised when I told him that the Tetragrammaton YHWH, doesn’t appear in any of the NT manuscripts found up to date and that their team of “translators” had inserted it 237 times in their translation of the Bible –NWT.

Any thoughts on the implications of all this in our view of God/Jesus?

Amo

[hope_for_things]

3 minutes ago, amo said:

A good JW friend of mine was really surprised when I told him that the Tetragrammaton YHWH, doesn’t appear in any of the NT manuscripts found up to date and that their team of “translators” had inserted it 237 times in their translation of the Bible –NWT.

Any thoughts on the implications of all this in our view of God/Jesus?

Amo

In light of scholarship around biblical source criticism, I think a Mormon conception of God isn't disrupted much by this idea.  The teaching that YHWH was the God of the OT isn't found anywhere in our canon, and it wasn't taught by Joseph Smith, so I don't see it as a foundational distinction anyway. 

The concept that Jesus and the Father were working together throughout time as a team in the Godhead, with the same ultimate purpose is the important theological nugget for Mormon theology.  Which name for God was used in the NT or OT, which writers penned those books, doesn't seem an important distinction to me.  

[Gray]

35 minutes ago, amo said:

A good JW friend of mine was really surprised when I told him that the Tetragrammaton YHWH, doesn’t appear in any of the NT manuscripts found up to date and that their team of “translators” had inserted it 237 times in their translation of the Bible –NWT.

Any thoughts on the implications of all this in our view of God/Jesus?

Amo

NT manuscripts are in Greek, not Hebrew of course. Was a Greek form of the YHWH ever in use in non-canonical documents? I think it had become the entrenched Jewish custom to use words like Lord to avoid the possibility of treating lightly the name of God. The NT was written by Jewish authors, of course.

 

Edited November 15, 2017 by Gray

[Kevin Christensen]

From my perspective, of course, there is this:

https://www.theway.org.uk/back/431Barker.pdf

Which is a much less detailed exloration than this:

http://www.margaretbarker.com/Publications/GreatAngel.htm

Quote

What has become clear to me time and time again is that the evidence indicates that pre-Christian Judaism was not monotheistic in the sense that we use that word.  Many in first century Palestine retained a world view derived from the more ancient religion of Israel, in which there was a High God and several Sons of God, one of whom was Yahweh, the Holy One of Israel.  Yahweh the Lord could be manifested on earth in human form, as an angel, or in the Davidic king.  It was as  a manifestation of Yahweh, the Son of God, that Jesus was acknowledged as Son of God, Messiah and Lord.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Edited November 15, 2017 by Kevin Christensen
added quote

[smac97]

FAIR Article: https://www.fairmormon.org/archive/publications/jesus-lord-of-the-old-testament

Chapter 5 of Jesus Christ and the Everlasting Gospel Teacher Manual: Lesson 5: Jesus Christ Was Jehovah of the Old Testament

Thanks,

-Smac

[mrmarklin]

The biggest problem the JW’s have is they conflate Jehovah as God, the Father. Hence all the misunderstanding of the NT. 

Edited November 16, 2017 by mrmarklin

[RevTestament]

9 hours ago, amo said:

A good JW friend of mine was really surprised when I told him that the Tetragrammaton YHWH, doesn’t appear in any of the NT manuscripts found up to date and that their team of “translators” had inserted it 237 times in their translation of the Bible –NWT.

Any thoughts on the implications of all this in our view of God/Jesus?

Amo

I find it frustrating.

The Peshitta may preserve a form of the name as the unique title Marya, which I believe is an invented shorthand for Lord Yah. The common Syriac for lord is just mar. In this way the Peshitta OT preserves the place where YHWH is used in the Tanach. The Peshitta Matthew seems to seek to do this as well, although we have no evidence of whether it is correct.

It seems Yeshua didn't mind a debate as to whether He is YHWH or not. I believe there are several OT passages which establish that He is. Tell your JW friend to look up what those Hebrew letters mean, and ask why He thinks the Father has that name....

I've never understood the JW justification for altering their scriptures to try to remove references to Yeshua as YHWH. I feel it is unChristian.

[RevTestament]

1 minute ago, mrmarklin said:

The biggest problem the JW’s have is they conflate Jehovah as God, the Father. Hence all the misunderstanding of the NT. 

El Elyon is YHWH. 

[Robert F. Smith]

13 hours ago, amo said:

A good JW friend of mine was really surprised when I told him that the Tetragrammaton YHWH, doesn’t appear in any of the NT manuscripts found up to date and that their team of “translators” had inserted it 237 times in their translation of the Bible –NWT.

Any thoughts on the implications of all this in our view of God/Jesus?.........

The Jehovah’s Witnesses correctly point out: 

Quote

It is interesting to note that the same author (the Apostle Paul) quoted Isaiah 45:21-24 in Philippians 2:10-11: "So that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend…and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Kyrios (Lord) to the glory of God the Father." However, with the same wording and the same human author, the New World Translation renders Kyrios as Lord in one case (Philippians 2:10-11), and as Jehovah (with added quotation marks) in the other (Romans 14:11). This introduces an interesting contradiction. If the Isaiah passage is read in context, it is very clear that Jehovah is saying, "Is it not I, Jehovah, besides whom there is no other God…There being none excepting me?…By my own self I have sworn…that to me every knee will bend down, every tongue will swear…" The Greek text published in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation indicates that both Jehovah and the Lord (Jesus) receive the worship that the Isaiah passage has reserved solely for Jehovah. A careful reading of the three passages in their entirety—using the Kingdom Interlinear Translation where applicable—is encouraged.  http://tetragrammaton.org/JehovahinNT.pdf .

Kevin Christensen has observed that  

Quote

during Nephi’s vision, the angel says, “Blessed art thou, Nephi, because thou believest in the Son of the most high God.” (1 Nephi 11:6).

*          *          *          *

If we understand that the God of the Old Testament is Yahweh, son of El Elyon, then the added “son of” is just clarification, explanation for readers in 1837, not a theological change. Jesus has a Father in Heaven who testifies of him, and to whom he prays and reports. In the Book of Mormon, Jesus identifies himself as Yahweh, the lord of the Old Testament, declaring that “I am he that gave the law, and I am he that covenanted with my people Israel,” (3 Nephi 15:5). In Benjamin’s discourse those who covenant with Jesus/ Yahweh become “the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters.” (Mosiah 5:7. Compare 3 Nephi 9:17). So Jesus both has a father who bears witness of him (3 Nephi 11:7) and to whom he prays (3 Nephi 17:14) and is a father via covenant and creation, and therefore is both a father and a son, both God (Yahweh), and a Son of God (a son of El Elyon, God Most High).[1]

Christensen also observes that “the Name of the Most High God” (3 Nephi 4:32, 11:17) is Yahweh/ Jehovah,[2] which appears twice in the Book of Mormon: one quoted from Isaiah (Isaiah 12:2 ǁ2 Nephi 22:2) and another by Moroni (Moroni 10:34).

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[1] Christensen, Interpreter, 10 (2014):195; cf. 199 on YHWH as son of El Elyon, citing Deuteronomy 32:8–9 (Qumran).

[2] Christensen, Interpreter, 10 (2014):200, citing Barker, The Great Angel, 97, 102-103.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, RevTestament said:

..............The Peshitta may preserve a form of the name as the unique title Marya, which I believe is an invented shorthand for Lord Yah. The common Syriac for lord is just mar. In this way the Peshitta OT preserves the place where YHWH is used in the Tanach. The Peshitta Matthew seems to seek to do this as well, although we have no evidence of whether it is correct.

It seems Yeshua didn't mind a debate as to whether He is YHWH or not. I believe there are several OT passages which establish that He is. Tell your JW friend to look up what those Hebrew letters mean, and ask why He thinks the Father has that name....

I've never understood the JW justification for altering their scriptures to try to remove references to Yeshua as YHWH. I feel it is unChristian.

One ought to examine in particular, the LXX Greek of Isaiah 12:2 (2 Ne 22:2), “Look, he is the God (ho Theos) of my salvation [my Jesus]: I shall have faith and not be afraid, for Yahweh (Kyrios) is my strength and my song, he has been my salvation [my Jesus]” – following the Jerusalem Bible.  When Greek Kyrios is used in the NT, the intention is Yahweh.  Jesus/Yeshua is, of course, "Salvation," who is mentioned frequently by the prophets.  The Hebrew form "my Salvation" is Yeshu'ati.

Jesus, speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic in the Temple precincts in John 8:58-59, identified himself as YHWH and immediately drew charges of blasphemy.  He did this by quoting the Hebrew of Exodus 3:14 ’ehye  "I am" (the 1st person verbal form of YHWH), which takes its same Greek LXX form there as egō eimi "I am" (John 8:58), which is accompanied by a note in the current LDS Bible:  “The term I AM used here in the Greek is identical with the Septuagint usage in Ex. 3:14 which identifies Jehovah. (Cf. also John 4:26.)”[1]

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[1] LDS 1979 KJV Holy Bible, 1342 n. 58b.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

[RevTestament]

15 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

One ought to examine in particular, the LXX Greek of Isaiah 12:2 (2 Ne 22:2), “Look, he is the God (ho Theos) of my salvation [my Jesus]: I shall have faith and not be afraid, for Yahweh (Kyrios) is my strength and my song, he has been my salvation [my Jesus]” – following the Jerusalem Bible.  When Greek Kyrios is used in the NT, the intention is Yahweh. 

 

So how do you distinguish between the usage of adonai and YHWH in the Septuagint Robert? Pull out your trusty Tanakh? Doesn't that defeat the purpose?  My point wasn't really about the Peshitta OT - it was about the carryover of Marya into its NT, and its usage in reference to Christ. It's OT does distinguish adonai and YHWH by using mar and Marya. However, I don't find its NT as reliable - perhaps its Matthew, but we really can't know for sure. So although you say the intent is for Kyrios to refer to YHWH, there are places in the NT where Kyrios is plainly used in reference to common lord or adonai. So, although the intent may be there at times, we really just can't know, unless you are comfortable with a servant calling his employer YHWH. That is my frustration with the Greek NT. If you can really solve that for me, I would be most grateful. I've had many people tell me the disciples just wouldn't have called Yeshua "YHWH." It was too taboo.

Quote

Jesus, speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic in the Temple precincts in John 8:58-59, identified himself as YHWH and immediately drew charges of blasphemy.  He did this by quoting the Hebrew of Exodus 3:14 ’ehye  "I am" (the 1st person verbal form of YHWH), which takes its same Greek LXX form there as egō eimi "I am" (John 8:58), which is accompanied by a note in the current LDS Bible:  “The term I AM used here in the Greek is identical with the Septuagint usage in Ex. 3:14 which identifies Jehovah. (Cf. also John 4:26.)”[1]

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[1] LDS 1979 KJV Holy Bible, 1342 n. 58b.

I disagree.

John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

This is not referring to YHWH. It is not referring to Exodus. Jesus regularly had a specific scriptural passage in mind. Here He is referring to 

Genesis 17:1

1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord ^aappeared to ^bAbram, and said unto him, I am the ^cAlmighty God[El Shaddai]; ^dwalk before me, and be thou ^eperfect.

First off, YHWH does not mean "I AM." Secondly, Jesus is saying to these Pharisees that He is El Shaddai. That is what they thought was blasphemy. Orthodoxy has that backwards because of the Septuagint and refers to the Father as El Shaddai, the Almighty God. But that is wrong. El Gibbor means the Mighty/Almighty Power. El Shaddai means the power that weans from the breast, who is Christ.

The Father is El Elyon, the Most High Power, and El Gibbor - but not El Shaddai.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

So how do you distinguish between the usage of adonai and YHWH in the Septuagint Robert?

Whenever one sees YHWH in the Hebrew Bible, according to the Masoretic Text it is supposed to be read 'Adonai, and it even has the vowels of "Adonai with the consonantal YHWH.  Septuagint Kyrios replaces that consistently, and the KJV translators (and others) follow convention by using "LORD."

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

................................ However, I don't find its NT as reliable - perhaps its Matthew, but we really can't know for sure. So although you say the intent is for Kyrios to refer to YHWH, there are places in the NT where Kyrios is plainly used in reference to common lord or adonai.

You mean singular 'Adon "Lord, Sir," while 'Adonai is the honorific plural "My-Sirs, My-Lords."  Use of generic kyrios "lord" is confusing, so one has to examine the context and the OT quotations in the NT Greek.

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

So, although the intent may be there at times, we really just can't know, unless you are comfortable with a servant calling his employer YHWH. That is my frustration with the Greek NT. If you can really solve that for me, I would be most grateful. I've had many people tell me the disciples just wouldn't have called Yeshua "YHWH." It was too taboo.

Of course, they didn't call Jesus "YHWH," and most of them didn't even know who he was anyhow -- until after the Resurrection.

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

I disagree.

John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

This is not referring to YHWH. It is not referring to Exodus. Jesus regularly had a specific scriptural passage in mind. Here He is referring to 

Genesis 17:1

First off, YHWH does not mean "I AM."

I don't know of any scholars who think that the reference by Jesus is to Gen 17:1.  He is making the same self-identification made by YHWH to Moses in Ex 3:14 by allowing Moses to tell the Israelites back in Egypt that "I AM has sent me."  Jesus deliberately uses the name of YHWH in its 1st person verbal form, ’ehye = Greek egō eimi  which is the Jewish Septuagint translation used in the OT and NT.  "I Am" is a name of YHWH, and YHWH is the 3rd person causative verbal form of the name, meaning "He-who-causes-to-come-into-existence."  ’ehye actually means "I-am-he-who-causes-to-come-into-existence, I-am-he-who-creates."  Quoting his own name from Ex 3:14 is the blasphemy which is unacceptable.

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Secondly, Jesus is saying to these Pharisees that He is El Shaddai. That is what they thought was blasphemy. Orthodoxy has that backwards because of the Septuagint and refers to the Father as El Shaddai, the Almighty God. But that is wrong. El Gibbor means the Mighty/Almighty Power. El Shaddai means the power that weans from the breast, who is Christ.

The Father is El Elyon, the Most High Power, and El Gibbor - but not El Shaddai.

The Shaddai of Gen 49:25 is a place-name meant to localize God to the twin mounds of Tell Biʿa (Tell el-Thadyen “Ruin/Site-of-the-Two-Breasts”= Sumerian TUTTUL “Breasts,” very near Abram's home), and it means “Twin-Breasts,”^[1] just like our own Grand Tetons.  The chief god of the Amorites was Bêl Šadê, likewise familiar to Abram, and identical to his own El Shaddai.

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^[1] Hebrew šad is “breast,” and Šadday is the ancient Amorite dual form familiar to Abram.  Cf. W. F. Albright, “The Names of Shaddai and Abram,” JBL, 54 (1935):192-193;  R. N. Holzapfel, D. M. Pike, and D. R. Seely, Jehovah and the World of the Old Testament (SLC: Deseret Book, 2009), 18, and see Genesis 17:1, 28:3, 35:11, 43:14, 48:3, Exodus 6:2-3, Numbers 24:16, Jeremiah 3:19, Ezekiel 10:5.

[RevTestament]

15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Christensen also observes that “the Name of the Most High God” (3 Nephi 4:32, 11:17) is Yahweh/ Jehovah,[2] which appears twice in the Book of Mormon: one quoted from Isaiah (Isaiah 12:2 ǁ2 Nephi 22:2) and another by Moroni (Moroni 10:34).

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[1] Christensen, Interpreter, 10 (2014):195; cf. 199 on YHWH as son of El Elyon, citing Deuteronomy 32:8–9 (Qumran).

[2] Christensen, Interpreter, 10 (2014):200, citing Barker, The Great Angel, 97, 102-103.

The Book of Mormon also correctly points out other subtleties about the Godhead often overlooked. It correctly refers to our Savior as the Holy One, and makes this quite clear so as not to be mistaken. Thus, it is Yeshua who is the Holy One in the Bible. So the BoM teaches more about the Godhead - that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one Power acting in concert. That the Son can be called the Father. This is in direct opposition to the doctrine of the Nicene Creed, which maintains the Son is not the Father, and that God is immutable. 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

The Book of Mormon also correctly points out other subtleties about the Godhead often overlooked. It correctly refers to our Savior as the Holy One, and makes this quite clear so as not to be mistaken. Thus, it is Yeshua who is the Holy One in the Bible. So the BoM teaches more about the Godhead - that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one Power acting in concert. That the Son can be called the Father. This is in direct opposition to the doctrine of the Nicene Creed, which maintains the Son is not the Father, and that God is immutable. 

Correct.  Both God and the Holy Spirit are described anthropomorphically in the Book of Mormon (I Nephi 11:11, Ether 2:4-5,14, 3:4-19).  In that context, it is not possible to formulate a doctrine of hypostatic union among the members of the Gottheit, but rather no more than a full unity of purpose and love among perfect beings, with God the Father at their head -- one God (II Nephi 31:21, Jacob 4:5, Alma 11:44, III Nephi 11:32, 35-36, Mormon 7:7, Ether 12:41, Moroni 10:34).  Formal language of cross-identification (Mosiah 13:28, 15:1-5) is, therefore, only to be taken as metaphorical, so that "the will of the Son" is "swallowed up in the will of the Father" (Mosiah 15:7).  In fact, David Paulsen and Ari Bruening argue for a social trinity in III Nephi.^[1]

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^[1] Paulsen & Bruening, "The Social Model of the Trinity in 3 Nephi," in Skinner & Strathearn, eds., Third Nephi, 191-233.

[Guest]

On November 15, 2017 at 11:18 AM, amo said:

A good JW friend of mine was really surprised when I told him that the Tetragrammaton YHWH, doesn’t appear in any of the NT manuscripts found up to date and that their team of “translators” had inserted it 237 times in their translation of the Bible –NWT.

Any thoughts on the implications of all this in our view of God/Jesus?

Amo

For good reason, it is because Jesus Christ began to refer to him as our "Father in Heaven", so the Apostles did so. The reason (I think) is because he wanted to help us nderstand who we are, and our relationship to God our Father. Unless YHWH, was Jehovah himself. It is easy to get confused when all names but one a attributed to the Father, are also attributed to the Son.