theplains Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 With various contrary LDS teachings on whether Adam or Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, I thought this recent video sermon would shed some light on the matter. https://www.scribd.com/doc/249047991/LDS-the-Sin-of-Adamhttps://www.scribd.com/doc/265550083/LDS-not-the-sin-of-Adam https://vimeo.com/224003103 Does this Psalm sermon on the topic "Forgiven" speak truth into your heart? Thanks, Jim
Bobbieaware Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 1 hour ago, theplains said: With various contrary LDS teachings on whether Adam or Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, I thought this recent video sermon would shed some light on the matter. https://www.scribd.com/doc/249047991/LDS-the-Sin-of-Adamhttps://www.scribd.com/doc/265550083/LDS-not-the-sin-of-Adam https://vimeo.com/224003103 Does this Psalm sermon on the topic "Forgiven" speak truth into your heart? Thanks, Jim How do you interpret the following declaration from the apostle Paul concerning Adam's role in the fall of man? 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. (1 Timothy 2)
CV75 Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, theplains said: With various contrary LDS teachings on whether Adam or Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, I thought this recent video sermon would shed some light on the matter. https://www.scribd.com/doc/249047991/LDS-the-Sin-of-Adamhttps://www.scribd.com/doc/265550083/LDS-not-the-sin-of-Adam https://vimeo.com/224003103 Does this Psalm sermon on the topic "Forgiven" speak truth into your heart? Thanks, Jim Really? I can read the first two links in less than 20 seconds. And you want me to listen to some braying know-it-all for 42 minutes?!?! Please summarize. Edited July 6, 2017 by CV75
Guest Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 41 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: How do you interpret the following declaration from the apostle Paul concerning Adam's role in the fall of man? 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. (1 Timothy 2) For many who wish to nitpick LDS Doctrine, I think that would fall under "a difficult truth". I marvel at the number of sermons preached in Churches and on the Internet, attacking our beliefs, that can be undone in seconds with a scripture or two from the Bible. In fact I marvel that so many call our teachings, "Mormon Teachings", when they are in fact, Biblical. 2
Bobbieaware Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 22 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: For many who wish to nitpick LDS Doctrine, I think that would fall under "a difficult truth". I marvel at the number of sermons preached in Churches and on the Internet, attacking our beliefs, that can be undone in seconds with a scripture or two from the Bible. In fact I marvel that so many call our teachings, "Mormon Teachings", when they are in fact, Biblical. I agree. 2
Guest Posted July 7, 2017 Posted July 7, 2017 52 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: I agree. My heart aches when others see or hear something that they think is an error. Then get fired up by sermons or articles, that omit the entire truth, and which inspires such threads or comments. Only to have it undone with just a few words of Biblical doctrine. Sadly instead of being upset at the article or sermon that mislead them, they are often angry at the one who told them the truth. Also, I thank you for doing it so gently, a quality I often lack. 1
Bobbieaware Posted July 7, 2017 Posted July 7, 2017 (edited) 11 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: My heart aches when others see or hear something that they think is an error. Then get fired up by sermons or articles, that omit the entire truth, and which inspires such threads or comments. Only to have it undone with just a few words of Biblical doctrine. Sadly instead of being upset at the article or sermon that mislead them, they are often angry at the one who told them the truth. Also, I thank you for doing it so gently, a quality I often lack. Now in fairness to the point made in the original post, it must be admitted it's understandable how someone could easily come to the conclusion that the transgression of our first parents in the garden was actually the darkest of sins, and and not ultimately a positive thing (as we believe). because the punishments meted out to Adam and Eve for the violation of the command to not partake of the forbidden fruit are the most severe punishments imaginable. In light of some of the things written in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, it's plain to see how someone could erroneously concluded that if what our first parents did in bringing about the fall was actually a good thing, then why were they punished so severely? As you read the following verses from 2 Nephi 9, notice the portions I place in bold and then ask yourself if it isn't understandable why someone could reasonably conclude the transgression in the garden was a most horrific and destructive sin? 6 For as death hath passed upon all men, to fulfil the merciful plan of the great Creator, there must needs be a power of resurrection, and the resurrection must needs come unto man by reason of the fall; and the fall came by reason of transgression; and because man became fallen they were cut off from the presence of the Lord. 7 Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement—save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more. 8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more. 9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness. 10 O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit. (2 Nephi 9). The above verses make it perfectly clear that if there had only been a fall, but no atonement, the transgression of our first parents would have caused all of us to unavoidably become devils. So it can be rightly concluded that the only thing that makes the fall a "happy fall" is the atonement of Christ. In reality, the fall itself brought absolutely no good thing into the world. Rather, a totally negative and destructive fall was miraculously transformed into a good thing only through the atonement of Christ. In fact, the fall in and of itself was so totally negative and infinitely destructive that it caused Moroni to testify to the following truth: 24 And behold, there were divers ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men, which were good; and all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them. (Moroni 7) Moroni is clearly declaring that the fall is a totally negative thing and only becomes a good and useful thing through the transformative and redemptive power of Christ. For all of these reasons it's understandable why an only partially-informed non-Latter-Day Saint would conclude the first disobedience in the garden was a sin and not a "special category" of transgression. Sadly, because people like "the plains" refuse further light and knowledge when it's plainly set before them, they are consigned to live lives of only partial illumination until they are finally willing to embrace the restored truth of the Restored Gospel. Edited July 7, 2017 by Bobbieaware 1
RevTestament Posted July 9, 2017 Posted July 9, 2017 On 7/6/2017 at 2:56 PM, theplains said: With various contrary LDS teachings on whether Adam or Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, I thought this recent video sermon would shed some light on the matter. https://www.scribd.com/doc/249047991/LDS-the-Sin-of-Adamhttps://www.scribd.com/doc/265550083/LDS-not-the-sin-of-Adam https://vimeo.com/224003103 Does this Psalm sermon on the topic "Forgiven" speak truth into your heart? Thanks, Jim The story of the garden of Eden is a parable or teaching. Eve represents the Church which transgressed. Adam represents several things. IT is not a worldly teaching so the world does not perceive it, but after the deed is done, the YHWH say, now the man has become as one of us to know good and evil. Let the absolutist interpreters stew on that for a few minutes.
USU78 Posted July 9, 2017 Posted July 9, 2017 Maybe I'm behind, but isn't sermonizing against board rules?
strappinglad Posted July 9, 2017 Posted July 9, 2017 When I think about the Councils pre earth mortality, I wonder if the words of 2 Nephi are moot. If we were presented with a plan for mortality that did not contain an infinite atonement, I think few if any would have signed on for a one way journey. Is 2 Nephi speculating about what could have happened? Was such revealed to him? Have there been instances where the unthinkable has happened and Nephi was given a vision of the result? Why , I wonder, would it be that if the body was not ever to reunite with the spirit, that the spirit would automatically become an angel to the devil instead of just returning to God and continue as before without any further progress? Catch 22 rears its ugly head !
theplains Posted July 12, 2017 Author Posted July 12, 2017 On 06/07/2017 at 6:16 PM, Bobbieaware said: How do you interpret the following declaration from the apostle Paul concerning Adam's role in the fall of man? 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. (1 Timothy 2) It seems evident. Satan deceived Eve, but Adam followed Eve instead of obeying God. LDS teachings consider their choice to have been wise. Jim
theplains Posted July 12, 2017 Author Posted July 12, 2017 On 06/07/2017 at 6:58 PM, CV75 said: Really? I can read the first two links in less than 20 seconds. And you want me to listen to some braying know-it-all for 42 minutes?!?! Please summarize. In a nutshell, it explains how Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden. Jim
Bobbieaware Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, theplains said: It seems evident. Satan deceived Eve, but Adam followed Eve instead of obeying God. LDS teachings consider their choice to have been wise. Jiim Paul is contrasting Adam's state before God with Eve's. He says Adam (who represents all men) is to hold presiding authority over Eve (who represents all women) because Eve was the one who was deceived and she was the one who, specifically, "was in transgression." Paul's statement in verse 14 is made in order to explain why men are to preside over women in the Church. Why should Adam have been made to preside if his culpablity is equal to Eve's? And so we read... 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. (1 Timothy 2) Observe in verse 14 Paul doesn't say Adam was the one who "was in THE transgression." So Paul's point is that women are to be in subjection under men for two specified reasons. 1) Adam was created and giver rulership over all the earth before Eve was created. 2) Adam was not deceived, but because Eve was deceived she was the one who "was in THE transgression." For these reasons, Paul asserts that Adam should preside over Eve and Eve should be in subjection to Adam. Like it or not, Paul specifically speaks of Eve having to be in subjection to Adam because she was the one who was beguiled and she was the one who "was in THE transgression." Your explanation doesn't speak to Paul's specific point as to why Adam presides over Eve. Why should Adam preside over Eve if he is as culpable as Eve "in THE transgression?" Edited July 12, 2017 by Bobbieaware
CV75 Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 12 hours ago, theplains said: In a nutshell, it explains how Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden. Jim With an evasive an answer as that is, all I can say is: "Good for them. And us!"
theplains Posted July 16, 2017 Author Posted July 16, 2017 On 11/07/2017 at 10:42 PM, Bobbieaware said: Your explanation doesn't speak to Paul's specific point as to why Adam presides over Eve. Why should Adam preside over Eve if he is as culpable as Eve "in THE transgression?" That what was God decreed in his punishment to Eve. "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." Thanks, Jim
theplains Posted July 16, 2017 Author Posted July 16, 2017 On 12/07/2017 at 9:52 AM, CV75 said: With an evasive an answer as that is, all I can say is: "Good for them. And us!" i suppose that is why Latter-day Saint praise/honor them for their choice to disobey. Jim
CV75 Posted July 16, 2017 Posted July 16, 2017 1 hour ago, theplains said: i suppose that is why Latter-day Saint praise/honor them for their choice to disobey. Jim I invite you then to join this conversation and better articulate what you mean by "their choice to disobey" and disobedience in thieir case: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/69258-transgression-vs-sin/
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