Darren10 Posted July 2, 2017 Posted July 2, 2017 7 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: Which ones? Like I said of the 10 Commandments only two apply to our government, laws against murder and stealing something common to all governments. All of them. We loose our freedom if we don't. Isn't that what the Book of Mormon says?
Darren10 Posted July 2, 2017 Posted July 2, 2017 3 hours ago, california boy said: Darren, you were the one arguing that the 10 Commandments was about all gods not me. This is what you said. I just have never heard anyone pretend the 10 Commandments are not about Jehovah before just because His name is not attached to the commandments.. It is a new concept for me. I simply stated that you are entitled to your opinion, but I don't agree with it. I just don't think other gods can be substituted in place of Jehovah as the God refered to in the 10 Commandments. For me, the 10 commandments apply and are attributed to only one God. And given how God reacted to the Israelites worshiping Baal, I would just say, in my opinion, I don't think God meant other gods could be substituted for Him just because His name is not on the commandments. I am not condescending to you. I am disagreeing with you. Saying I ought to to read, and oh, tbere's rhat one part whwre Moses... is condescending. What are you talking about that the Ten Commandments are talking about gods? Other than not yo worship them, it talks about worshipping the one true God YHWH/JEHOVAH. my point was that it does not mention "YHWH/ Jehovah". Therefore everyone is free to interpret "God" for him or herself when the Ten Commandments are displayed all by themselves. If they mentioned "YHWH/ Jehovah" I would oppse their didplay since those are regularly used as proper names. Same goes for "Elohim". If ysed as a proper name I'd oppise their display. Is that good enough for you or should I go learn something to which I'm ignorant? Tell me, oh Grand Pobah.
Darren10 Posted July 2, 2017 Posted July 2, 2017 3 hours ago, california boy said: But the 10 commandments are not a secular document, it is a religious document of belief. If someone made a statue of a pagan god, and placed it on the steps of a state capitol to celebrate the contribution of Greek ideas to our government, I think there would be a lot of reaction. And I think some christian would be the first to take a hammer to it. Liberals take a hammer to things, not Conservatives. 2
Darren10 Posted July 2, 2017 Posted July 2, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: Can we bring back the Greek and Roman gods? "The World Is Too Much With Us" by William Wordsworth The world is too much with us; late and soon, Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers: Little we see in Nature that is ours; We have given our hearts away, a sordid boon! The Sea that bares her bosom to the moon; The winds that will be howling at all hours, And are up-gathered now like sleeping flowers; For this, for everything, we are out of tune; It moves us not.--Great God! I'd rather be A Pagan suckled in a creed outworn; So might I, standing on this pleasant lea, Have glimpses that would make me less forlorn; Have sight of Proteus rising from the sea; Or hear old Triton blow his wreathèd horn. 4 hours ago, california boy said: But the 10 commandments are not a secular document, it is a religious document of belief. If someone made a statue of a pagan god, and placed it on the steps of a state capitol to celebrate the contribution of Greek ideas to our government, I think there would be a lot of reaction. And I think some christian would be the first to take a hammer to it. http://home.bexar.org/hidalgo/ladyjustice.html https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Justice https://foundationofpatriotism.org/new-exhibits/lady-justice/ So, what are your arguments about Pagans again? Do you two only contend against Christian symbols on government property? I want both of you to go to the corner and think about what you've said. (Especially the believing *Roman* Catholic ) Edited July 2, 2017 by Darren10
Darren10 Posted July 2, 2017 Posted July 2, 2017 Are court decisions made on Thursday, the "Day of Thor" or in Monday which is "martes" in Spanish which honors Mars, Roman God of War, the Greek version Wonder Woman battles in her awesome new movie.
MiserereNobis Posted July 2, 2017 Posted July 2, 2017 2 minutes ago, Darren10 said: So, what are your arguments about Pagans again? Do you two o my contend against Christian symbols on government property? I want both of you to go to the corner and think about what you've said. (Especially the believing *Roman* Catholic ) I think you might have misunderstood me I was writing in the silly context of The Nehor. Also, I absolutely love that sonnet and it talks about becoming a pagan again. And finally, Rome is where my heart is. And it's interesting to note that our government buildings use Roman temple architecture (banks, too). So, to conclude... you all just need to convert to Roman Catholicism! 1
MiserereNobis Posted July 2, 2017 Posted July 2, 2017 2 minutes ago, Darren10 said: Are court decisions made on Thursday, the "Day of Thor" or in Monday which is "martes" in Spanish which honors Mars, Roman God of War, the Greek version Wonder Woman battles in her awesome new movie. Don't forget about the months.. March = Mars, July = Julius, August = Augustus, January = Janus, etc.. 2
Darren10 Posted July 2, 2017 Posted July 2, 2017 25 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: I think you might have misunderstood me I was writing in the silly context of The Nehor. Also, I absolutely love that sonnet and it talks about becoming a pagan again. And finally, Rome is where my heart is. And it's interesting to note that our government buildings use Roman temple architecture (banks, too). So, to conclude... you all just need to convert to Roman Catholicism! LOL! And, yes, I think did misunderstand you. When can the Roman Catholic missionaries come over?
california boy Posted July 2, 2017 Posted July 2, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Darren10 said: Saying I ought to to read, and oh, tbere's rhat one part whwre Moses... is condescending. What are you talking about that the Ten Commandments are talking about gods? Other than not yo worship them, it talks about worshipping the one true God YHWH/JEHOVAH. my point was that it does not mention "YHWH/ Jehovah". Therefore everyone is free to interpret "God" for him or herself when the Ten Commandments are displayed all by themselves. If they mentioned "YHWH/ Jehovah" I would oppse their didplay since those are regularly used as proper names. Same goes for "Elohim". If ysed as a proper name I'd oppise their display. Is that good enough for you or should I go learn something to which I'm ignorant? Tell me, oh Grand Pobah. i was suggesting to you might want to read in the Old Testament that story which in my opinion completely disputes your theory that the 10 Commandments could be applied to all gods in hopes that you would reconsider your position. Like I said, I disagreed with your position and felt like the story of what happened after the 10 Commandments illustrated quite well that you may want to rethink your position. I probably worded that poorly, but it certainly was not meant to offend you. I apologize if you took it that way. In light of that story in the Old Testament, I still disagree that the 10 Commandments could be applied to any god. It seems to me to illustrate quite clearly that the 10 Commandments only apply to Jehovah. Subsituting other gods doesn't seem like an option. Edited July 2, 2017 by california boy
california boy Posted July 2, 2017 Posted July 2, 2017 3 hours ago, Darren10 said: http://home.bexar.org/hidalgo/ladyjustice.html https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Justice https://foundationofpatriotism.org/new-exhibits/lady-justice/ So, what are your arguments about Pagans again? Do you two only contend against Christian symbols on government property? I want both of you to go to the corner and think about what you've said. (Especially the believing *Roman* Catholic ) Most people view Roman and Greek gods as mythical figures. To put Jehovah in the same category as Roman and Greek gods, you would also have to say that most people look at Jehovah as a mythical figure. I don't think you can make that statement. Now if you could find an example of a statue of Satan in a state capital, then you would have a point because many people do view Satan as being very real. Do you think people would get upset if a state government put up a statue of Satan along with his set of beliefs?
Darren10 Posted July 2, 2017 Posted July 2, 2017 1 hour ago, california boy said: i was suggesting to you might want to read in the Old Testament that story which in my opinion completely disputes your theory that the 10 Commandments could be applied to all gods in hopes that you would reconsider your position. Like I said, I disagreed with your position and felt like the story of what happened after the 10 Commandments illustrated quite well that you may want to rethink your position. I probably worded that poorly, but it certainly was not meant to offend you. I apologize if you took it that way. In light of that story in the Old Testament, I still disagree that the 10 Commandments could be applied to any god. It seems to me to illustrate quite clearly that the 10 Commandments only apply to Jehovah. Subsituting other gods doesn't seem like an option. One- more-time... One is 100% free to interpret what "gods" or "God" means in the Ten Commandments when read alll by themselves. No one is advocating posting the entire Old Testament in courthouses. I would oppose that as a state endorsement of religion and even though it'll probably be shorter than our country's tax code, it's too long to post its entirety.
Darren10 Posted July 2, 2017 Posted July 2, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, california boy said: Most people view Roman and Greek gods as mythical figures. To put Jehovah in the same category as Roman and Greek gods, you would also have to say that most people look at Jehovah as a mythical figure. I don't think you can make that statement. Now if you could find an example of a statue of Satan in a state capital, then you would have a point because many people do view Satan as being very real. Do you think people would get upset if a state government put up a statue of Satan along with his set of beliefs? What has Satan done to contribute to freedom? And Pagan statues and symbols are alive and well in our courts and deeply embedded in our legal system. This does quite against what gou explicitly said. Edited July 2, 2017 by Darren10 1
california boy Posted July 2, 2017 Posted July 2, 2017 44 minutes ago, Darren10 said: One- more-time... One is 100% free to interpret what "gods" or "God" means in the Ten Commandments when read alll by themselves. No one is advocating posting the entire Old Testament in courthouses. I would oppose that as a state endorsement of religion and even though it'll probably be shorter than our country's tax code, it's too long to post its entirety. Thanks for sharing your point of view on both issues. They are both certainly different than mine. It is hard for me to see a monument of the 10 Commandments to be anything more than Christians trying to impose their religious dogma as government dogma. As has been pointed out, only two of the commandments have any relationship to secular law. Things like honoring the Sabbath day and forbidding the worshiping other gods is only a religious belief. The issue of a mythical Greek god representing the concept of justice seems like an entirely different issue. But this forum is at it's best when we exchange ideas even when we don't agree with them.
Darren10 Posted July 2, 2017 Posted July 2, 2017 (edited) 32 minutes ago, california boy said: Thanks for sharing your point of view on both issues. They are both certainly different than mine. It is hard for me to see a monument of the 10 Commandments to be anything more than Christians trying to impose their religious dogma as government dogma. As has been pointed out, only two of the commandments have any relationship to secular law. Things like honoring the Sabbath day and forbidding the worshiping other gods is only a religious belief. The issue of a mythical Greek god representing the concept of justice seems like an entirely different issue. But this forum is at it's best when we exchange ideas even when we don't agree with them. "The main entrance to the Supreme Court Building is on the west side, facing the United States Capitol. A few low steps lead up to the 252-foot-wide oval plaza in front of the building. Flanking these steps is a pair of marble candelabra with carved panels on their square bases depicting: Justice, holding sword and scales, and The Three Fates, weaving the thread of life. On either side of the plaza are fountains, flagpoles, and benches." Uh oh. The Three Fates? Where's my Christian sword and shield? We got Pagan deities in my Supreme Court which is decicated to only Jehovah! "Too often, visitors do not see the corresponding pediment and columns on the east side. Here the sculpture group is by Hermon A. MacNeil, and the marble figures represent great lawgivers, Moses, Confucius, and Solon, flanked by symbolic groups representing Means of Enforcing the Law, Tempering Justice with Mercy, Settlement of Disputes Between States, and Maritime and other functions of the Supreme Court. The architrave bears the legend: "Justice the Guardian of Liberty."" Confucius alongside Moses? Moses clearly wanted Jehovah and Jehovah only. What is Confucius he doing there? The man even killed sn Egyptian who was merely doing his job. And Moses lead the Jews who followed only one God, Jehovah... and we place Confucius next to him? Eeeeek, I'm appalled I tell ya'. "The monumental bronze doors at the top of the front steps weighs six and one-half tons each and slide into a wall recess when opened. The door panels, sculpted by John Donnelly, Jr., depict historic scenes in the development of law: the trial scene from the shield of Achilles, as described in the Iliad; a Roman praetor publishing an edict; Julian and a pupil; Justinian publishing the Corpus Juris; King John sealing the Magna Carta; the Chancellor publishing the first Statute of Westminster; Lord Coke barring King James from sitting as a Judge; and Chief Justice Marshall and Justice Story." Achilles? From the Iliad? I give up fighting. I'll just resign myself to the inferior idea that the Ten Commandments represent law giving, rewards and consequences for a people and which has had a tremendous influence on my country, society, culture, history, and law. My elite Christian ways are done with. https://www.supremecourt.gov/about/courtbuilding.aspx /Did you like that California Boy! Edited July 2, 2017 by Darren10 1
thesometimesaint Posted July 2, 2017 Posted July 2, 2017 6 hours ago, Darren10 said: All of them. We loose our freedom if we don't. Isn't that what the Book of Mormon says? Careful there, according to some the LDS aren't Christian, and we sure as heck aren't Jews.
MiserereNobis Posted July 2, 2017 Posted July 2, 2017 10 hours ago, Darren10 said: LOL! And, yes, I think did misunderstand you. When can the Roman Catholic missionaries come over? Be careful of what you ask for... we've got some hard-core missionaries. I'll sick the Jesuits on ya! 2
california boy Posted July 2, 2017 Posted July 2, 2017 5 hours ago, Darren10 said: "The main entrance to the Supreme Court Building is on the west side, facing the United States Capitol. A few low steps lead up to the 252-foot-wide oval plaza in front of the building. Flanking these steps is a pair of marble candelabra with carved panels on their square bases depicting: Justice, holding sword and scales, and The Three Fates, weaving the thread of life. On either side of the plaza are fountains, flagpoles, and benches." Uh oh. The Three Fates? Where's my Christian sword and shield? We got Pagan deities in my Supreme Court which is decicated to only Jehovah! "Too often, visitors do not see the corresponding pediment and columns on the east side. Here the sculpture group is by Hermon A. MacNeil, and the marble figures represent great lawgivers, Moses, Confucius, and Solon, flanked by symbolic groups representing Means of Enforcing the Law, Tempering Justice with Mercy, Settlement of Disputes Between States, and Maritime and other functions of the Supreme Court. The architrave bears the legend: "Justice the Guardian of Liberty."" Confucius alongside Moses? Moses clearly wanted Jehovah and Jehovah only. What is Confucius he doing there? The man even killed sn Egyptian who was merely doing his job. And Moses lead the Jews who followed only one God, Jehovah... and we place Confucius next to him? Eeeeek, I'm appalled I tell ya'. "The monumental bronze doors at the top of the front steps weighs six and one-half tons each and slide into a wall recess when opened. The door panels, sculpted by John Donnelly, Jr., depict historic scenes in the development of law: the trial scene from the shield of Achilles, as described in the Iliad; a Roman praetor publishing an edict; Julian and a pupil; Justinian publishing the Corpus Juris; King John sealing the Magna Carta; the Chancellor publishing the first Statute of Westminster; Lord Coke barring King James from sitting as a Judge; and Chief Justice Marshall and Justice Story." Achilles? From the Iliad? I give up fighting. I'll just resign myself to the inferior idea that the Ten Commandments represent law giving, rewards and consequences for a people and which has had a tremendous influence on my country, society, culture, history, and law. My elite Christian ways are done with. https://www.supremecourt.gov/about/courtbuilding.aspx /Did you like that California Boy! I had no idea Christians were under such persecution in this country. To think that Moses has to stand next to Confucius. Oh the humanity. My heart is truly weeping with an eternal flow of tears.
Darren10 Posted July 2, 2017 Posted July 2, 2017 5 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: Careful there, according to some the LDS aren't Christian, and we sure as heck aren't Jews. Well, than I guess that changes nothing as to what I've said on this thread.
Darren10 Posted July 2, 2017 Posted July 2, 2017 (edited) 41 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: Be careful of what you ask for... we've got some hard-core missionaries. I'll sick the Jesuits on ya! Ha, I can spot them coming from miles away. Edited July 2, 2017 by Darren10
thesometimesaint Posted July 2, 2017 Posted July 2, 2017 45 minutes ago, Darren10 said: Well, than I guess that changes nothing as to what I've said on this thread. The history of violence of Christians isn't pretty.
Darren10 Posted July 2, 2017 Posted July 2, 2017 18 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: The history of violence of Christians isn't pretty. That's why I love the book of Alma. It's loaded with violence.
thesometimesaint Posted July 2, 2017 Posted July 2, 2017 50 minutes ago, Darren10 said: That's why I love the book of Alma. It's loaded with violence. The Book of Alma is a cautionary tale not a how to book. 1
USU78 Posted July 2, 2017 Author Posted July 2, 2017 2 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: The history of violence of Christians isn't pretty. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
thesometimesaint Posted July 2, 2017 Posted July 2, 2017 I'm not so sanguine. The early LDS didn't appreciate Christian's treatment of them either.
The Nehor Posted July 3, 2017 Posted July 3, 2017 On 7/1/2017 at 9:27 PM, Darren10 said: Liberals take a hammer to things, not Conservatives. Uhhhhhhhh...........nope.
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