Scott Lloyd Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 From this link: Quote Phillips said he didn’t refuse the couple service and offered to sell them anything in the store. But when it came to actively participating in the couple’s wedding, that’s where Phillips drew the line. If there are wedding cakes in the store, why didn't the couple just buy one of them for their wedding if, as it's being asserted here, there is no difference between a gay wedding cake and any other kind of wedding cakes. It seems that if anyone is making a big deal over the difference, it is the plaintiffs in the case. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, JulieM said: From what I read, this is what they were doing. They planned on putting 2 brides on it after they purchased it. There is a CFR on the table. The source I quoted said the baker offered to sell them anything else in the store. Edited July 11, 2017 by Scott Lloyd
JulieM Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Please do. And let's make this a formal CFR. Here are a couple of references stating they'd purchased their mother's wedding cake at the same bakery and remembered how good it was, so they wanted the same cake for their own wedding: Here's some about it: "Rachel had previously purchased a cake for her mother's sixth wedding - a 'raspberry fantasy cake' - and wanted the same one for her own wedding, the Oregonian reported." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3863352/Oregon-bakery-refused-make-wedding-cake-lesbian-couple-religious-beliefs-closes-legal-battles-leave-business-financial-ruins.html And another reference (I can quote more if you'd like): "When Rachel called her mother to break the news, she squealed.'I know where we are getting your cake,' said Rachel's mom, Cheryl McPherson. 'Let's call Melissa.' Laurel and Rachel had bought McPherson's wedding cake at Sweet Cakes by Melissa a few years before. It was McPherson's sixth marriage. At that tasting, the family later testified in court, they joked with Melissa Klein about McPherson's impulsive way with men. Rachel and Laurel had been together eight years by then. McPherson had known her fiancee only a few weeks. Two years later, Rachel and her mother still dreamed about Melissa's "raspberry fantasy cake," a two-layer, white butter cake baked with raspberries and topped with white chocolate." http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/07/sweet_cakes_lesbians.html 2
JulieM Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: From this link: If there are wedding cakes in the store, why didn't the couple just buy one of them for their wedding if, as it's being asserted here, there is no difference between a gay wedding cake and any other kind of wedding cakes. It seems that if anyone is making a big deal over the difference, it is the plaintiffs in the case. Few bakeries have ready made wedding cakes for sale. As far as I know, they require them to be ordered in advance. (At least in my experience). I don't think the baker even let them get to the point of them requesting that anything be on the cake that was different from any other wedding cake. As soon as he learned they were the brides, he refused to make the cake for them. Edited July 11, 2017 by JulieM 2
Scott Lloyd Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 12 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: You should read my response more closely. I stated it was my opinion. Therefore I am not claiming fact. This is why SCOTUS is reviewing the case. Are you intending to uphold your CFR on me stating my opinion? You're welcome to state your opinion as long as it is clearly labeled as such -- which it wasn't at first. I only point out that it appears to be an opinion without substantiation in fact. Quote You're now up to 5 CFR's on this page...or is it 6. I've lost count. I don't know the number; Is there a limit to the number of CFRs one is allowed to make? I do know that so far there has been no response to any of them -- unless you count your contemptuous dismissal as a response.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, JulieM said: Here are a couple of references stating they'd purchased their mother's wedding cake at the same bakery and remembered how good it was, so they wanted the same cake for their own wedding: Here's some about it: "Rachel had previously purchased a cake for her mother's sixth wedding - a 'raspberry fantasy cake' - and wanted the same one for her own wedding, the Oregonian reported." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3863352/Oregon-bakery-refused-make-wedding-cake-lesbian-couple-religious-beliefs-closes-legal-battles-leave-business-financial-ruins.html And another reference (I can quote more if you'd like): "When Rachel called her mother to break the news, she squealed.'I know where we are getting your cake,' said Rachel's mom, Cheryl McPherson. 'Let's call Melissa.' Laurel and Rachel had bought McPherson's wedding cake at Sweet Cakes by Melissa a few years before. It was McPherson's sixth marriage. At that tasting, the family later testified in court, they joked with Melissa Klein about McPherson's impulsive way with men. Rachel and Laurel had been together eight years by then. McPherson had known her fiancee only a few weeks. Two years later, Rachel and her mother still dreamed about Melissa's "raspberry fantasy cake," a two-layer, white butter cake baked with raspberries and topped with white chocolate." http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/07/sweet_cakes_lesbians.html This doesn't answer the question about why they couldn't have just bought a generic wedding cake from the bakery and let it suit their purposes -- if, as you and others here assert, there's no difference between a gay wedding cake and any other kind of wedding cake. Edited July 11, 2017 by Scott Lloyd 2
Scott Lloyd Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 3 minutes ago, JulieM said: Few bakeries have ready made wedding cakes for sale. As far as I know, they require them to be ordered in advance. (At least in my experience). But you don't know whether that's true in this instance, do you? Is there much of a difference between a wedding cake and, say, a birthday cake or a bar mitzvah cake or a graduation cake or a job promotion cake or a farewell cake or a housewarming cake or any of an untold number of celebratory cakes one might purchase? 1
JulieM Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: But you don't know whether that's true in this instance, do you? Do you know if this bakery had ready made generic wedding cakes available for walk ins? I've never seen a bakery that does. Wedding cakes are almost always special orders, from what I've seen. They are tiered and decorated differently than just a generic birthday cake, for instance. Are you really claiming that this couple didn't have the same right as straight couples do (to order the wedding cake they wanted for their wedding)? Would you have asked your bride to just be ok with a generic, ready made wedding cake for your wedding? This is crazy anyway, because you expected this couple to walk in and hope there would happen to be a wedding cake available over the counter on their wedding day? Seriously? Edited July 11, 2017 by JulieM 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 12 minutes ago, JulieM said: Few bakeries have ready made wedding cakes for sale. As far as I know, they require them to be ordered in advance. (At least in my experience). I don't think the baker even let them get to the point of them requesting that anything be on the cake that was different from any other wedding cake. As soon as he learned they were the brides, he refused to make the cake for them. He said he offered to sell them anything else in the store. 1
JulieM Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: He said he offered to sell them anything else in the store. Just not a wedding cake, right? Not the same wedding cake he sold them for her mother's wedding? And, that's called discrimination. Maybe they could have had wedding cookies or cupcakes that are sold over the counter Would your wife had been ok with that instead of being able to order the wedding cake that she wanted? 2
Scott Lloyd Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) 40 minutes ago, JulieM said: Do you know if this bakery had ready made generic wedding cakes available for walk ins? I've never seen a bakery that does. Wedding cakes are almost always special orders, from what I've seen. They are tiered and decorated differently than just a generic birthday cake, for instance. Are you really claiming that this couple didn't have the same right as straight couples do (to order the wedding cake they wanted for their wedding)? Would you have asked your bride to just be ok with a generic, ready made wedding cake for your wedding? This is crazy anyway, because you expected this couple to walk in and hope there would happen to be a wedding cake available over the counter on their wedding day? Seriously? I'm not the one here who has asserted that there is no difference between a gay wedding cake and any other kind of wedding cake. In fact I was ridiculed for appearing to suggest that there is a substantive difference. If there is no difference, why make a court case out of it? Just buy a typical wedding cake and let it do for your gay wedding. Edited July 11, 2017 by Scott Lloyd 1
JulieM Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I'm not the one here who has asserted that there is not difference between a gay wedding cake and any other kind of wedding cake. In fact I was ridiculed for appearing to suggest that there is a substantive difference. If there is no difference, why make a court case out of it? Just buy a typical wedding cake and let it do for your gay wedding. I think that's what they were attempting to do. But wedding cakes need to be ordered in advance (gay or straight wedding cakes). There is no difference in the cake she wanted for her wedding vs. the one they ordered for her mother's wedding (from the same baker who willingly baked and sold it to them). That's the point. This is such a clear case of discrimination, but you simply refuse to see it. No need to continue here, really. Edited July 11, 2017 by JulieM 2
Scott Lloyd Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) 30 minutes ago, JulieM said: Just not a wedding cake, right? He said anything in the store. I don't know whether there were ready-made cakes in the store or not. Do you? It appears you are making assumptions. Quote Not the same wedding cake he sold them for her mother's wedding? And, that's called discrimination. But apparently it wasn't "the same cake." It appears they wanted it custom made expressly for their homosexual wedding, and that's where, as a matter of conscience, the baker drew the line. Why couldn't they have ordered a custom-made cake, with all the flavors, ingredients and specs they desired, and just not indicated it was for their gay wedding? After all, there's no difference between a gay wedding cake and an ordinary wedding cake. Isn't that what you and your tag team have been telling me? Quote Maybe they could have had wedding cookies or cupcakes that are sold over the counter Would your wife had been ok with that instead of being able to order the wedding cake that she wanted? If we had been unhappy with how we were being dealt with by a bakery we would have readily taken our business elsewhere -- which is what the couple in this instance should have done. That's how the free-enterprise system functions. Edited July 11, 2017 by Scott Lloyd 2
Scott Lloyd Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, JulieM said: I think that's what they were attempting to do. But wedding cakes need to be ordered in advance (gay or straight wedding cakes). There is no difference in the cake she wanted for her wedding vs. the one they ordered for her mother's wedding (from the same baker who willingly baked and sold it to them). That's the point. This is such a clear case of discrimination, but you simply refuse to see it. No need to continue here, really. The discrimination is in the product/service offered, not in the clientele served. Just like with T-Shirt's T-shirt shop. He will sell a T-shirt to anyone but will not offer one for sale with an objectionable message on it -- to anyone. That's a clear case of exercising freedom of conscience. Edited July 11, 2017 by Scott Lloyd 2
JulieM Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: But apparently it wasn't "the same cake." It appears they wanted it custom made expressly for their homosexual wedding, and that's where, as a matter of conscience, the baker drew the line. CFR (that they wanted it "custom made expressly for their homosexual wedding"). Everything I've read had statements from them that they wanted the same cake that was ordered for her mother from the same bakery and that they didn't get far enough to request specifics or even how they wanted it decorated, etc. I'd like to see what you've read about this (how it was going to be different from the wedding cake they'd ordered for her Mom's wedding from the same bakery.) Edited July 11, 2017 by JulieM 2
Scott Lloyd Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 1 minute ago, JulieM said: CFR (that they wanted it "custom made expressly for their homosexual wedding". Everything I've read had statements from them that they wanted the same cake that was ordered for her mother from the same bakery and that they didn't get far enough to request specifics or even how they wanted it decorated, etc. I'm making an assumption -- just like you are. If they wanted an identical one to what their mother had, why didn't they just order a wedding cake and not indicate it was for a homosexual wedding? Were they trying to make a public statement and vindictively make an example out of the baker? 2
JulieM Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 13 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I'm making an assumption -- just like you are. No, I'm going on the statements those involved have made. How was her cake going to be different from her Mom's?
Scott Lloyd Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, JulieM said: No, I'm going on the statements those involved have made. How was her cake going to be different from her Mom's? You tell me. Why are they making a federal case out of it (literally) if it was to be just like some other wedding cake with nothing uniquely homosexual about it? If he was discriminating against them because they are homosexual, why did he offer to sell them anything else in the store? That's an odd way to discriminate against someone. Edited July 11, 2017 by Scott Lloyd 1
california boy Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) Scott. I think it might be time for you to step away from the computer for a moment and ask your wife if bakeries sell premade wedding cakes Edited July 11, 2017 by california boy 1
JulieM Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: You tell me. I won't play that game with you, Scott. You're the one making the claim. I've stated the cakes were the same If it's just your opinion that they wanted their wedding cake "custom made expressly for their homosexual wedding", but have nothing to back your statement up, just admit it's only your opinion and I'll forget about my CFR. Everything I've read has stated that she loved the wedding cake so much that this baker made for her Mom, she wanted the same cake for her wedding. Edited July 11, 2017 by JulieM 1
JulieM Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 4 minutes ago, california boy said: Scott. I think it might be time for you to step away from the computer for a moment and ask your wife if bakeries sell premade wedding cakes lol
Scott Lloyd Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 13 minutes ago, JulieM said: I won't play that game with you, Scott. You're the one making the claim. I've stated the cakes were the same If it's just your opinion that they wanted their wedding cake "custom made expressly for their homosexual wedding", but have nothing to back your statement up, just admit it's only your opinion and I'll forget about my CFR. Everything I've read has stated that she loved the wedding cake so much that this baker made for her Mom, she wanted the same cake for her wedding. i already answered your CFR when I said I was making an assumption just as you are. You don't appear to be any more knowledgable about the circumstances than I.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 19 minutes ago, california boy said: Scott. I think it might be time for you to step away from the computer for a moment and ask your wife if bakeries sell premade wedding cakes Perhaps you can answer why they offered to sell the couple anything else in the store if they were so discriminatory against gays. JulieM doesn't appear to have any idea. 1
USU78 Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Perhaps you can answer why they offered to sell the couple anything else in the store if they were so discriminatory against gays. JulieM doesn't appear to have any idea. Bullying and mendacity. 1
JulieM Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: i already answered your CFR when I said I was making an assumption just as you are. Once again, I've read the actual statements of those involved. You seem to have nothing to back up your "assumptions" or accusations. But I'll release you from the CFR since you can't produce any references. Gotta sign off now, though. Have a nice evening and I'll check in later! 1
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