USU78 Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 30 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: No one has used those words. That's the impression I've gotten. No due consideration that the man might actually be motivated by sincerely lead religious beliefs. I guess nobody ever saw the "Say No to H8" t-shirts and other swag associated with homosexual advocacy over the last decade. 1
california boy Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: He has said more than once that I've seen that he would gladly make and sell them any other baked goods they wanted, including cakes. If it were, as you say, "about the where and who," don't you think he would refuse to sell <anything> to the gay couple for fear the cakes or cookies or whatever it is might get served at the wedding? You are assuming ill intent and trying to pass your assumption off as fact. Scott, this whole case is about a baker that refuses to make a wedding cake for a gay couple. Since when does a baker have the right to find out what their product is going to be used for and then discriminate against the buyer if they don't like how their product is being used. Part of buying a product is that when you pay the money, the product is yours. Can you imagine going into a baker and telling them you would like some bread. When they ask why, you say it is for the sacrament. So the baker throws a fit that a Mormon wants to use his bread to be used in a Mormon ritual. Instead they offer the Mormon a pie. They make bread. They sell it to those that want it. They don't get to pick and choose who they sell their products to or what the product will be used for once it leaves their shop. How about if someone walks in that is over weight and tries to buy a dozen cookies. Is it the bakers business if the overweight person decides to buy cookies? Have you ever been denied the ability to buy something in a baker because the owner didn't like how you were going to use his product. The baker has no legal grounds to refuse service to products they offer to the general public. They are trying to create new rights that the law does not allow for. So far, they have lost every case that has gone before the courts. Heaven help us if some judge decides that store owners can pick and choose who they sell to and what they sell to individual customers.
california boy Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, USU78 said: I guess nobody ever saw the "Say No to H8" t-shirts and other swag associated with homosexual advocacy over the last decade. Saying no to discrimination is a moral stand. Serving sinners is a principle Christ hoped all of those that followed His example would follow. Too bad so many missed that basic lesson that is repeated by Christ over and over again. Edited July 12, 2017 by california boy 1
Gray Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 37 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: So you utterly reject the concept of freedom of conscience because some people have behaved badly in the past. That strikes me as an overreaction -- or a rationalization. Some people are behaving badly in the present. Conscience doesn't give anyone the right to break the law. For some people it's a matter of conscience not to seek out medical treatment. They're still prosecuted if they deny medical treatment to their minor children.
USU78 Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 Just now, california boy said: Saying no to discrimination is a moral stand. So is saying no to bullying bullies who ambush the innocent and make them pariahs, fit only for re-education camps, unfit to participate in commerce. Compelling the unwilling to partake of the treyf pig meat sacrificed to idols because a state decides that everybody must, regardless of religious sensibilities, is evil. No two ways about it.
Gray Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 (edited) 34 minutes ago, USU78 said: Aaron Klein, the Oregon baker: Concerning Jack Phillips, the Colorado baker: $135K for refusing to eat the pork sacrificed to the image of Epiphanes? Re-education programs? Assuming the research is accurate and religion is actually centered in a particular part of the brain, can reparative surgical therapies to extirpate religion from the person be far behind? Or maybe compulsory gene therapies? Elimination of religion beliefs? How does one eliminate religious beliefs from a business? Don't these numbskulls know that a business is just people? It doesn't matter what legal fiction is used to explain the tax planning or estate planning or asset protection strategies are involved in making the business legal, a business is just people. Remember Aaron and Jack. They're your neighbors and might be your friends and, you never know, they might just be you. I googled a phrase from your source - "completely eliminated his religious beliefs form [sic] his business." Looks like you're getting your analysis on this from some pretty kooky sources. Given the language, it's pure propaganda material. Why would you seek that out? Edited July 12, 2017 by Gray
california boy Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 26 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: The "re-education program" is especially alarming to me. Very reminiscent of Nazi and Communist regimes. What is happening to our country? Wow you had to go there huh. This lack of Christ-like action towards serving everyone, including sinners is now like Nazi Germany. Unbelievable.
Gray Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 27 minutes ago, USU78 said: Ridiculous. There are bullies here, but the conscientious objectors ain't them. Segregationists also felt "bullied" into compliance with anti-segregation laws. Bullies don't like it when they aren't allowed to oppress anymore. 2
USU78 Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 1 minute ago, california boy said: Wow you had to go there huh. The State already went there, including requiring quarterly compliance reports demonstrating effectiveness of re-education efforts. 1
Gray Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, USU78 said: The State already went there, including requiring quarterly compliance reports demonstrating effectiveness of re-education efforts. The analysis from your kooky sources. GIGO.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Offering to sell them something they don't want isn't particularly magnanimous. It goes to whether he is discriminating against them, which is what you are trying so desperately to get everyone to believe. What's wrong with buying another kind of cake and adapting it? As I said, if it were me, and that was not an acceptable solution, that would be the point where I would take my business elsewhere. I would vote with my feet and my dollars, but I wouldn't try to use the courts to bully someone into doing something he found objectionable on principle. Quote The t-shirt analogy is absurd. It's not absurd. It's right on point. T-Shirt discriminates against no one. He just refuses to deal in products that offend is values. The same as the cake shop owner. Quote Don't bother answering. There's no point. As much as to say, "My mind is made up; don't confuse me with facts." Edited July 12, 2017 by Scott Lloyd
USU78 Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, Gray said: Segregationists also felt "bullied" into compliance with anti-segregation laws. Bullies don't like it when they aren't allowed to oppress anymore. The black guy has/had a point. The Civil War was not pointless. The reconstruction amendments were not pointless. A citizen, to be a citizen, needs certain things. The state never refused voting, property ownership, participation in commerce, or access to government services to homosexuals as it had to blacks. Blacks may properly be described as "homosexual," assuming they fit the criteria. Homosexuals can only properly be described as "black" if they fit the criteria. 2
USU78 Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 3 minutes ago, Gray said: The analysis from your kooky sources. GIGO. Your posts remain the pinnacle of entertainment hereabouts. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 (edited) 16 minutes ago, california boy said: Wow you had to go there huh. This lack of Christ-like action towards serving everyone, including sinners is now like Nazi Germany. Unbelievable. No, forcing someone against his will into "re-education" programs (read that "brainwashing") is like Nazi Germany and other totalitarian regimes such as Communist East Germany, the Soviet Union, etc. I would strenuously object to it in any context, not just this one. Wars have been fought over just such stuff as this. Edited July 12, 2017 by Scott Lloyd 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Gray said: The analysis from your kooky sources. GIGO. It's not kooky. I read the same thing yesterday in a mainstream news source. The government in Denver would have required the baker and his staff to undergo "re-education" and to submit quarterly reports to tell the Big Brother state government how they were doing. Frankly, I found that appalling. I still do. One humorous point though. The baker's mother, who is in her 80s and works at the shop, said she doubted at this point in her life that "re-education programs" would have much effect on her. Edited July 12, 2017 by Scott Lloyd 1
Gray Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 6 minutes ago, USU78 said: The black guy has/had a point. The Civil War was not pointless. The reconstruction amendments were not pointless. A citizen, to be a citizen, needs certain things. The state never refused voting, property ownership, participation in commerce, or access to government services to homosexuals as it had to blacks. Blacks may properly be described as "homosexual," assuming they fit the criteria. Homosexuals can only properly be described as "black" if they fit the criteria. African Americans and gays have faced different types of discrimination. But the apologetics for discrimination are largely unchanged.
Gray Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 6 minutes ago, USU78 said: Your posts remain the pinnacle of entertainment hereabouts. I'm a hoot at parties. 1
Gray Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: It's not kooky. I read the same thing yesterday in a mainstream news source. The government in Denver would have required the baker and his staff to undergo "re-education." Frankly, I found that appalling. I still do. One humorous point though. The baker's mother, who is in her 80s and works at the shop, said she doubted at this point in her life that "re-education programs" would have much effect on her. What mainstream news source was that? Name it, please. Given that you quite recently claimed that the Trump-Russia thing was without substance, I'm not sure you haven't been insulating yourself in a bubble of sources that tell you what you want to hear.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Gray said: What mainstream news source was that? Name it, please. Given that you quite recently claimed that the Trump-Russia thing was without substance, I'm not sure you haven't been insulating yourself in a bubble of sources that tell you what you want to hear. It's still pretty much without substance. Did you catch Donald Jr.'s interview on Hannity last night? But that's another subject. Please don't derail this thread. I'll try to find that source again on the "re-education" and the quarterly reports. Edited to add: From the Denver Post regarding the quarterly reports. From Fox News regarding the "sensitivity training." These are not the ones I saw yesterday, but the facts are the same. Edited July 12, 2017 by Scott Lloyd 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 15 minutes ago, Gray said: African Americans and gays have faced different types of discrimination. But the apologetics for discrimination are largely unchanged. If you have a cookie-cutter mentality, everything looks the same.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 39 minutes ago, california boy said: Saying no to discrimination is a moral stand. Serving sinners is a principle Christ hoped all of those that followed His example would follow. Too bad so many missed that basic lesson that is repeated by Christ over and over again. Serving sinners is one thing. Enabling or abetting sin is another.
Gray Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: It's still pretty much without substance. Did you catch Donald Jr.'s interview on Hannity last night? Hannity and Trump are your sources. This explains so much. Like I said, bubble. 6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: But that's another subject. Please don't derail this thread. I'll try to find that source again on the "re-education" and the quarterly reports. From the Denver Post regarding the quarterly reports. From Fox News regarding the "sensitivity training." The Denver Post doesn't say anything about "re-education" or "eliminating his religious beliefs form his business." I couldn't watch the video from your state run news source. Any text available?
Gray Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: If you have a cookie-cutter mentality, everything looks the same. The language is the same. I've posted an example in this thread.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Gray said: Hannity and Trump are your sources. This explains so much. Like I said, bubble. The Denver Post doesn't say anything about "re-education" or "eliminating his religious beliefs form his business." I couldn't watch the video from your state run news source. Any text available? Read it again. The business would be required to submit quarterly reports on how its employees were being re-educated. And Fox News is not a "state-run" news source. Edited to add: Here's something from the ACLU (you probably adore them) that quotes the Colorado Civil Rights Commission Report. That should be more to your liking. Happy now? Edited July 12, 2017 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted July 12, 2017 Posted July 12, 2017 5 minutes ago, Gray said: The language is the same. I've posted an example in this thread. Context makes a big difference.
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