CMZ Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 (edited) Just a little Gospel study topic. I'm trying, as much as sources will allow, to keep track of how the Twelve Tribes of Israel are counted throughout history. It seems clear that it starts out as: Reuben (holds the birthright) Simeon Levi Judah Dan Naphtali Gad Asher Issachar Zebulun Joseph Benjamin The next thing that seems to happen is Joseph getting the birthright: Reuben Simeon Levi Judah Dan Naphtali Gad Asher Issachar Zebulun Joseph (holds the birthright) Benjamin Then Judah is given governmental/royal power: Reuben Simeon Levi Judah Dan Naphtali Gad Asher Issachar Zebulun Joseph (holds the birthright) Benjamin The next step is where some questions come in. It appears that Dan (reasons unclear) and Levi (because of all that stuff about holding the Priesthood and their descendants living among all tribes) are removed from the count and that Ephraim and Manasseh are put in their place: Reuben Simeon Judah Naphtali Gad Asher Issachar Zebulun Joseph (holds the birthright) Ephraim (or is it Ephraim?) Manasseh Benjamin But... if Ephraim and Manasseh take the place of Dan and Levi then does that mean Joseph still holds his own place among the twelve? Because if he doesn't then only eleven slots are filled. And then in The Book of Revelation the twelve tribes are mentioned as: Juda (Judah) Reuben Gad Aser (Asher) Nepthalim (Naphtali) Manasses (Manasseh) Simeon Levi Issachar Zabulon (Zebulun) Joseph Benjamin In this list Manasseh is further up the line (and there's some other alterations in placement, while Joseph is back in his #11 slot), Dan is still gone but Levi is back in, and Ephraim is not mentioned but I believe is lumped in, so to speak, with Joseph? Maybe because of Levi being back in? If that's the case I suppose we could view it as: Juda (Judah) Reuben Gad Aser (Asher) Nepthalim (Naphtali) Manasses (Manasseh) Simeon Levi Issachar Zabulon (Zebulun) Joseph/Ephraim Benjamin Can anyone help fill in any holes here or make any needed corrections? Edited January 30, 2017 by CMZ 1
cinepro Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 If you're interested in keeping the Twelve tribes straight, I think Leviticus 18:22 is the pertinent verse.
CMZ Posted January 30, 2017 Author Posted January 30, 2017 Lol, thought someone might make that type of joke.
The Nehor Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 Reuben sometimes fails to make the cut due to his sin (sex with dad's concubine). Dan is suspected to be removed for Samson and/or for their turning to idolatry more then the other tribes. Plus people have shown that it is credible that Simon Magus was a Danite. In LDS patriarchal blessings there are 13 tribes as Ephraim and Manasseh are separate.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 10 hours ago, CMZ said: Reuben Simeon Levi Judah Dan Naphtali Gad Asher Issachar Zebulun Joseph Benjamin These are indeed the tribal eponyms traditionally attached to the sons of Jacob-Israel. When the loyal tribe of Levi (Moses, Aaron, etc.) becomes the priesthood for all the tribes, then Joseph is split into Ephraim & Manasseh. However, as you seem to realize it is much more complicated than that. Some see an archaic zodiacal sequence, as with the twins Ephraim & Manasseh equivalent to "Gemini," and Issachar "Hireling" (Deut 33:17-18), equivalent to Sumerian MAŠ.TAB.BA.GAL "Gemini," and LU.HUN.GA/LU2-HUĜ-GA2 "The Hireling." During the existence of Classical Israel, the names of some of the members of that amphictyonic league vary. In fact some of these tribal names existed centuries before Classical Israel. One thinks of the semi-nomadic Banu-Yamina "Southerners, Benjaminites," and Banu-Sim'al "Northerners," in the vicinity of Mari. Or of the more ancient term for Levi, Amorite Lawiyu "a person pledged for a debt or a vow (to divinity)”[1]; the title also appears in Arabic (Luʼaiy), and in Thamudic, Sabaean (Lwy), etc.[2]; cf., for example, Minaean lawi’u “priest.” Baruch Levine sees lēwîyîm (2 Samuel 15:24) “as a professional designation,” and adds: The term lēwî itself may be a northern locution; witness its occurrence in these early northern Israelite sources and in Deuteronomy, whose core is probably of northern Israelite origin.[3] [1] Albright, Archaeology and Religion of Israel, 5th ed., 109, 204-205 n. 42, cited in M. Rehm in Freedman, ed., ABD, IV:300. [2] Ran Zadok, Pre-Hellenistic Israelite Anthroponomy, §21111, citing IC 522 for the Arabic. [3] Levine, Numbers 1-20, 281. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: ..................................................................... In LDS patriarchal blessings there are 13 tribes as Ephraim and Manasseh are separate. Are you including official LDS recognition of Levi in that count? See D&C 68:15-21, 107:1,6,10.13-16.
The Nehor Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 43 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Are you including official LDS recognition of Levi in that count? See D&C 68:15-21, 107:1,6,10.13-16. Yes, the 13 are 11 of the original tribes (not including Joseph) and Ephraim and Manasseh who both come from Joseph. I have never heard of anyone being assigned the tribe of Joseph. 2
halconero Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 It might be better to consider Manasseh and Ephraim as sub-tribes of Joseph. Yeah, I know someone who was assigned the tribe of Joseph. First Nations (Native Canadian) dad and a white mom. We were close, served in the same mission and came from the same province in Canada. 2
CV75 Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 On 1/30/2017 at 3:23 AM, The Nehor said: Yes, the 13 are 11 of the original tribes (not including Joseph) and Ephraim and Manasseh who both come from Joseph. I have never heard of anyone being assigned the tribe of Joseph. My wife is of the tribe of Joseph. Filipino mother, English/Welsh father. I and our children are of Ephraim. I guess she out-ranks us all! 2
The Nehor Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 13 minutes ago, CV75 said: My wife is of the tribe of Joseph. Filipino mother, English/Welsh father. I and our children are of Ephraim. I guess she out-ranks us all! Just what I need. A bunch of Josephites lording it over us Ephraimites. I suggest an alliance with the Zebulunites to cut them down to size. I was going to say Manasseh but I think they are currently in cahoots with the Asherites. 1
CV75 Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: Just what I need. A bunch of Josephites lording it over us Ephraimites. I suggest an alliance with the Zebulunites to cut them down to size. I was going to say Manasseh but I think they are currently in cahoots with the Asherites. I have a mercenary deal with the tribe of Mahan...
The Nehor Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 25 minutes ago, CV75 said: I have a mercenary deal with the tribe of Mahan... I have been trying to get into their Master's Program but my body count is just not high enough. 1
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