MormonLeaks publishes docs on GA pay, meetings

[omni]

4 hours ago, rockpond said:

MormonLeaks (formerly MormonWikiLeaks) published a few more documents today:  https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/5mysp0/leaked_q15_and_1q70_pay_information/

Here's a summary that someone posted at the top of that reddit page:

Again, as with previous leaks, probably not much here to surprise anyone.

If these figures are correct, I have no issues with the amount of money they are being paid.  These men work hard and most would have been making significantly more had they remained in the private sector.  

Additionally the first class plane ticket shouldn't be a big deal, Elder Oaks travels frequently and I wouldn't be surprised if he was bumped up to first class due to his airline status.

Where I have an issue is the lack of transparency and the myth the Church continues to perpetuate that the brethren are not paid, but simply receiving a living stipend.  If these figures are correct, does this sound like a living stipend to anyone?

[rockpond]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Only to test the consistency and depth of your commitment to the demigod of transparency. Actually I don't care about your income -- or that of the apostles and prophets. You, apparently, do.

Then hopefully you now understand my reasoning (which is consistent/committed).  

I have never shied away from my belief that a return to financial transparency would be both a good thing for the Church and a requirement in the Doctrine & Covenants. The stipends given to the prophet, apostles, and other general authorities is merely one piece of that. 

[rockpond]

3 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

which does not mean I'm the boss, shareholder, employer or any other such person that entitles me to know much someone's salary is.

No. It certainly does not. 

[rockpond]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The Church of Jesus Christ is not a government entity or a commercial business. Those who seek and are given membership in it should be expected to know that already.

 

Agreed. 

[rockpond]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

Who do you think provides the Lord's servants' incomes? The Man you give your tithing to, of course, in which case, it is no longer yours.

Tithing is a covenant between the member and the Lord. As with all covenants, it is administered by those with the keys. In some cases our covenants are transparent (baptism) and in some cases not (endowments and sealings). While it is easy to witness the transparent covenants (baptism), witnessing nontransparent covenants (sealings) require some qualification.

 

So the Lord is not always transparent, and does not always require transparency from His servants, and in cases like those above, forbids it. Transparency is not a spiritual principle, but revelation is. How are Church fiscal activities to be revealed? Who has the keys of revelation for that?

 

We sustain those with the keys to act in behalf of the Lord, by common consent. We do so by faith, not necessarily by temporal knowledge (such as that which comes through transparency). While consent is an act of faith, it still often has a relationship with spiritual knowledge, as described in Alma 32.

 

The law of common consent also requires financial transparency.  A principle the church followed until the mid 1950's. 

[The Nehor]

17 minutes ago, omni said:

Where I have an issue is the lack of transparency and the myth the Church continues to perpetuate that the brethren are not paid, but simply receiving a living stipend.  If these figures are correct, does this sound like a living stipend to anyone?

It does to me. Stipend doesn't necessarily mean small. It is a payment given not for work but so that the person does not need a paying job.

[rockpond]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

In some instances that we can know about, the Lord has specifically not been transparent, as for example when he enjoined his three chief apostles to "tell no man" of what happened on the Mount of Transfiguration.

Although in the case of church finances, the last revelation we have on the matter instructs transparency. 

[rockpond]

2 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

as a customer of WalMart should I be entitled to look at their books and all their expenses and how much they employee bob the cashier?

it ceases to be my money when I consecrate it to the Lord. I give Him my tithe. He pours out the windows of heaven in return. The money is His to do as He sees fit.

I have no obligation to the Lord about how His money is dispersed. I am not seeking such an obligation. Nor is He obligated to consult me on how His money is spent. I trust Him.

Fortunately I didn't compare the Church to Walmart.  Not the same at all. 

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It does to me. Stipend doesn't necessarily mean small. It is a payment given not for work but so that the person does not need a paying job.

I've read elsewhere that the apostle's children get a free education and the apostles have living expensives paid on top of the stipend. I wonder if it's false information or not. If not then who knows what the living expenses would be and college costs. That could be a hefty amount depending. But do agree with others that the stipend of $120,000 a year isn't that much these days, especially if they are doing the work in the corporation as CEO's do. Because if we're all being honest there are many businesses in this church, add onto that the upcoming home & business developments, such as in the Riverton, Utah area and Florida. 

Edited January 10, 2017 by Tacenda

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I've read elsewhere that the apostle's children get a free education and the apostles have living expensives paid on top of the stipend. I wonder if it's false information or not. If not then who knows what the living expenses would be and college costs. That could be a hefty amount depending. But do agree with others that the stipend of $120,000 a year isn't that much these days, especially if they are doing the work in the corporation as CEO's do. Because if we're all being honest there are many businesses in this church, add onto that the upcoming home & business developments, such as in the Riverton, Utah area and Florida. 

I believe they get a free education if they go to a church school and are automatically accepted. Ask me about my District Leader who got a GED getting in easily while I didn't quite make the cut. Then-Rick's College accepted me but I decided I did not want to live the Honor Code. Well, I did want to live it mostly. Just did not want to live in a school where it is enforced.

Church Leaders used to sit on the boards of Church companies and drew a salary in addition to (I believe then smaller) stipend. President Hinckley did not like the concept and thought it could give a very wrong impression and killed it.

[Johnnie Cake]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Great. Care to tell us your weekly or bi-weekly income including benefits?

And, to make it meaningful to us, tell us your real-life (not screen name) identity?

 

big difference between someone who's income is based off of donations to a charity some transparency would be nice...but for the record, these men are under paid...I make more than them and do a fraction of the work and none of their responsibilities still transparency would still be nice

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

True, but the money comes from the Church's business interests, many of which never came from tithing money. Most of the seed money for the early church businesses came from the sale of land in Utah.

CFR.  Because if you could show us the documents to support such a statement we likely wouldn't even need to have this discussion.  

[rockpond]

47 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

First of all, cut all those salaries by at least 11% because those individuals give back at least that much to the organization which pays them!

The salaries are low to start with, but even with the low salaries the quotes are at least 11 or 12% or more higher than reality

And no one is counting the time away from families, time writing sermons, articles, other meetings which other executives might take care of as part of their usual 9-5 jobs with Wednesdays off for golf and 3 hour martini lunches.

What world do you live in?  "Mad Men"?

 

[The Nehor]

Just now, rockpond said:

CFR.  Because if you could show us the documents to support such a statement we likely wouldn't even need to have this discussion.  

Fine, I will sit down and trace LDS business interests from the 1850s to today and track all the money to show that not a dime of tithing ever went to it.

Oh wait, no I won't.

[Johnnie Cake]

In the trib article on this topic, a church spokesman claims that GAs aren't paid from tithing...I find this claim the biggest deflection of the truth...isn't tithing income the source of all income?  If income is dirived from investing tithing...isn't that income still derived from tithing?  Why the need to deflect the truth...why not own it and just say dang yeah we pay em from tithing funds...what else would we pay em with?

[Calm]

I wonder how many apostles still have college aged kids needing help with education or if it doesn't matter whether single or married.

We thought one of the perks of college prof life was free tuition...but just till married, which meant for our son one year since he worked his first year because they told him he would get his mission call too soon (didn't get it till June so he could have put a year under his belt), then he was married by the second year he was home.  And our daughter can't manage college so no go with her either.  By the time I am free enough to go back to school, I will be senior so have discount or be doing grad so have to pay full price...sigh.  Maybe instead I will just take a bunch of craft and cooking classes.

[The Nehor]

51 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

And no one is counting the time away from families, time writing sermons, articles, other meetings which other executives might take care of as part of their usual 9-5 jobs with Wednesdays off for golf and 3 hour martini lunches.

I suspect that Trump voters really want the golf and martini lunches back. I caught only the tail-end of the old days of business dying off. Now corporation are so 'bleah' and dull.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Johnnie Cake said:

In the trib article on this topic, a church spokesman claims that GAs aren't paid from tithing...I find this claim the biggest deflection of the truth...isn't tithing income the source of all income?  If income is dirived from investing tithing...isn't that income still derived from tithing?  Why the need to deflect the truth...why not own it and just say dang yeah we pay em from tithing funds...what else would we pay em with?

Businesses built with the proceeds from the sale of land in Utah to settlers used to a large degree to set up early Church business interests?

Or the money tree we keep in the Holy of Holies? Either way works.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

I wonder how many apostles still have college aged kids needing help with education or if it doesn't matter whether single or married.

Apostles are usually called in their 40's so a fair number considering the size of many LDS families. Seventies are sometimes called older so less helpful there but it does happen.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Johnnie Cake said:

isn't tithing income the source of all income? 

Not only did the Church get money through sale of Utah lands as Nehor pointed out, there are a lot of people who donate to the Church outside of tithing and fast offerings and this is often in real estate or stocks or other forms of property.  It is not unusual from what I hear for major bequests to be left to the Church.

[rockpond]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Fine, I will sit down and trace LDS business interests from the 1850s to today and track all the money to show that not a dime of tithing ever went to it.

Oh wait, no I won't.

Because you can't. 

And even if you could... they are all consecrated funds.  The D&C doesn't distinguish between them. 

[Calm]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

Apostles are usually called in their 40's....

Really?  I know in the past they were called pretty early, but in the past 20 years or more it seems like they were in their 60s.

[rockpond]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Businesses built with the proceeds from the sale of land in Utah to settlers used to a large degree to set up early Church business interests?

Or the money tree we keep in the Holy of Holies? Either way works.

And how was the church able to sell lands in Utah to make this money?  Oh yeah, the sacrifices of the saints. 

Its all consecrated money and the D&C doesn't separate out the funds that came directly from tithing vs those that were otherwise consecrated to the church.  The same requirement is on all funds that the church has. 

[rockpond]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Really?  I know in the past they were called pretty early, but in the past 20 years or more it seems like they were in their 60s.

Wasn't Bednar one of the youngest called to the 12?  And he was 52 at the time.  I think most have been in their 60's.  (At least in my lifetime.)

[Calm]

Of the last seven, only Bednar (52) and one other (58) were not in their 60s.