There is no such thing as a liberal Mormon

[UtahTexan]

1 minute ago, maklelan said:

No, it's the naive argumentation and misinformation that means you are naive. 

Numerous other things that make a human being a human being, unless you think all entities with DNA and heartbeats count as fully fledged and credentialed human beings.

What a grotesque and ignorant false analogy. You're suggesting that pro-choice positions hold that all non-humans unilaterally deserve death, rather than that they prioritize the life and agency of the mother over that of a fetus while it is a part of her body. No one has the physical relationship to anyone in any hospital or nursing home on the planet that a woman has to an unborn fetus. It is precisely that physical relationship that demands priority be given to the life and agency of one over and against the other. The fact that you have to entirely ignore the absolute centrality of that physical relationship to the question in order to attempt to drum up analogues you think will serve your rhetoric only further betrays how laughably far off the mark you are.

Agency of the mother?  Yes....to have or not sex.  Not to kill a baby.  It amazes me that the same folks who will protest to save a tree will fight to kill a baby.  It is a life.  You can minimize all you want to justify your needs, but it is a life.  My analogy was based on YOUR comments, so please stop with needless insults.  You wish to have free reign to destroy lives that are inconvenient....and call them non-lives.  I get it.  But do not insult me simply because I believe life is sacred.

[maklelan]

1 minute ago, CountryBoy said:

Agency of the mother?  Yes....to have or not sex.  Not to kill a baby.  It amazes me that the same folks who will protest to save a tree will fight to kill a baby.  It is a life.  You can minimize all you want to justify your needs, but it is a life.  My analogy was based on YOUR comments, so please stop with needless insults.  You wish to have free reign to destroy lives that are inconvenient....and call them non-lives.  I get it.  But do not insult me simply because I believe life is sacred.

I believe is sacred, too, but if I met you on the street and asked how long you have been alive, you'd measure from the date of your birth. So would everyone else. Why? Because we conceptualize of life as beginning at birth. So does the Church. As I explained earlier, we do not allow sealings or other ordinances for stillborn children precisely because the Church says there has been no revelation on when the spirit enters the body. As a result, they default to treating birth as the threshold of humanity. The Church agrees with the rest of our culture that birth represents the pivotal change to full status as a human life. Why should we treat abortion completely differently?

[UtahTexan]

2 minutes ago, maklelan said:

I believe is sacred, too, but if I met you on the street and asked how long you have been alive, you'd measure from the date of your birth. So would everyone else. Why? Because we conceptualize of life as beginning at birth. So does the Church. As I explained earlier, we do not allow sealings or other ordinances for stillborn children precisely because the Church says there has been no revelation on when the spirit enters the body. As a result, they default to treating birth as the threshold of humanity. The Church agrees with the rest of our culture that birth represents the pivotal change to full status as a human life. Why should we treat abortion completely differently?

Because we ask about birthday, not conception day.  

How about this: Have you ever talked to a couple having a baby?  A couple of weeks into the pregnancy...they get to hear the heartbeat for the first time.  Do they say, "wow.....a lump!"  No...they are excited because it is a LIFE.  They have heard the heartbeat.  They tell all their friends and family.  Why?  because it is ALIVE.  THEIR child!  They talk to it...they buy things for it.....long before the birth.......

 

[Bobbieaware]

On August 22, 2016 at 4:00 PM, maklelan said:

Of course it means I'm pro-choice. It's not my position or desire to declare where the boundaries of sin lie, but I find opposition to the legality and accessibility of abortion absolutely unconscionable.

You want me to apologize for supposedly saying you should be excommunicated when all I was suggesting is that the Church policy on abortion -- not my opinion on abortion -- states those members who encourage others to have abortions could very well end up being questioned in a Church disciplinary council. Why should I apologize for something I didn't say? You should apologize to me for stretching the truth and putting words in my mouth in a dishonest maneuver to place me in a negative light.

Three questions on the Church abortion policy:

1) Do you believe the Church policy on abortion is wrong?

2) Do you believe a Church member who has an abortion, for whatever reason, should never have to face a disciplinary council?

2) Do you believe it would have been wrong for Mary to abort Jesus if she felt justified in doing so?

[maklelan]

28 minutes ago, CountryBoy said:

Because we ask about birthday, not conception day.  

No, we ask about length of life. If I ask you "How long have you been alive?" you will measure from your date of birth. I'm not asking you your birthdate, I'm asking how long you've been alive, but because we all conceptualize of our lives as beginning at birth, that's the date from which you will measure. Virtually no one even knows the date of their conception, but the act of sex and the act of conception don't even occur on the same day, anyway. You clearly haven't done much thinking about these issues.

Quote

How about this: Have you ever talked to a couple having a baby?  A couple of weeks into the pregnancy...they get to hear the heartbeat for the first time.  Do they say, "wow.....a lump!"  No...they are excited because it is a LIFE.  They have heard the heartbeat.  They tell all their friends and family.  Why?  because it is ALIVE.  THEIR child!  They talk to it...they buy things for it.....long before the birth......

They buy stuff in anticipation of birth because that's the transition from a fetus to an actual human life. Until it is born, it does not have equivalent status to a born human in any way. Just because it's living does not mean it is a human life on the same level as a born human.

[maklelan]

8 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

You want me to apologize for supposedly saying you should be excommunicated when all I was suggesting is that the Church policy on abortion -- not my opinion on abortion -- states those members who encourage others to have abortions could very well end up being questioned in a Church disciplinary council. Why should I apologize for something I didn't say? You should apologize to me for stretching the truth and putting words in my mouth in a dishonest maneuver to place me in a negative light.

Three questions on the Church abortion policy:

1) Do you believe the Church policy on abortion is wrong?

2) Do you believe a Church member who has an abortion, for whatever reason, should never have to face a disciplinary council?

2) Do you believe it would have been wrong for Mary to abort Jesus if she felt justified in doing so?

If you cannot apologize and cannot keep from presuming to patronize and be dishonest to me, I'm not interested in what you have to say. You're on ignore.

[ttribe]

9 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

You want me to apologize for supposedly saying you should be excommunicated when all I was suggesting is that the Church policy on abortion -- not my opinion on abortion -- states those members who encourage others to have abortions could very well end up being questioned in a Church disciplinary council. Why should I apologize for something I didn't say? You should apologize to me for stretching the truth and putting words in my mouth in a dishonest maneuver to place me in a negative light.

Three questions on the Church abortion policy:

1) Do you believe the Church policy on abortion is wrong?

2) Do you believe a Church member who has an abortion, for whatever reason, should never have to face a disciplinary council?

2) Do you believe it would have been wrong for Mary to abort Jesus if she felt justified in doing so?

This is rhetorical nonsense.  Nothing mak has said could be reasonably construed to imply he would answer 1) and 2) in the affirmative and 3) in the negative.  Nothing.

[UtahTexan]

1 minute ago, maklelan said:

No, we ask about length of life. If I ask you "How long have you been alive?" you will measure from your date of birth. I'm not asking you your birthdate, I'm asking how long you've been alive, but because we all conceptualize of our lives as beginning at birth, that's the date from which you will measure. Virtually no one even knows the date of their conception, but the act of sex and the act of conception don't even occur on the same day, anyway. You clearly haven't done much thinking about these issues.

They buy stuff in anticipation of birth because that's the transition from a fetus to an actual human life. Until it is born, it does not have equivalent status to a born human in any way. Just because it's living does not mean it is a human life on the same level as a born human.

I see you dodged the other points.  They hear the heartbeat and they KNOW it is alive.  And why would they buy things if they did not think it alive?  Why not just wait till it is born?  

It is because it is a LIFE......

[maklelan]

Just now, CountryBoy said:

I see you dodged the other points.  They hear the heartbeat and they KNOW it is alive.  

I didn't dodge anything. These "points" are absolutely irrelevant. I never said a fetus wasn't alive. I said it wasn't a human life in the sense that you or I or a newborn are human lives.

Quote

And why would they buy things if they did not think it alive?  Why not just wait till it is born?  

It is because it is a LIFE......

It is a life, yes, but it is not on the same level as a born human. There is a boundary between that life and the life of a born human that is so clear and significant that we think of our lives in absolutely every way as beginning from that boundary. Our laws, our practices, our beliefs, even our status as children of God in the eyes of the Church, all measure the human life from birth. Continuing to repeat that a fetus is alive is just completely and utterly irrelevant, and if you cannot acknowledge, much less engage, that fact, we're done here.

[UtahTexan]

3 minutes ago, maklelan said:

I didn't dodge anything. These "points" are absolutely irrelevant. I never said a fetus wasn't alive. I said it wasn't a human life in the sense that you or I or a newborn are human lives.

It is a life, yes, but it is not on the same level as a born human. There is a boundary between that life and the life of a born human that is so clear and significant that we think of our lives in absolutely every way as beginning from that boundary. Our laws, our practices, our beliefs, even our status as children of God in the eyes of the Church, all measure the human life from birth. Continuing to repeat that a fetus is alive is just completely and utterly irrelevant, and if you cannot acknowledge, much less engage, that fact, we're done here.

a life is a life.  taking that life is killing.  No matter how badly you wish to justify it.

And the family all excited when they hear that heartbeat agrees.  They do not say, "A heartbeat!  it is a life but not on the same level of a born human!"  They KNOW it is LIFE...

And you have admitted it is a life.  Therefore, the taking of that life is killing

[Bobbieaware]

8 minutes ago, maklelan said:

If you cannot apologize and cannot keep from presuming to patronize and be dishonest to me, I'm not interested in what you have to say. You're on ignore.

On my word of honor, I have been honest with you. In my mind, I was only thinking of an abortion encourager being questioned in a disciplinary council, not excommunication.

Before you put me on ignore, I would genuinely appreciate it if you would answer my last three questions.

[maklelan]

1 minute ago, CountryBoy said:

a life is a life.  taking that life is killing.  No matter how badly you wish to justify it.

But it's justified if the fetus wouldn't live past birth, or if it's the result of rape? What makes taking those lives not killing? Before you get to that, though, please support your statement that "a life is a life," despite the fact that we unilaterally acknowledge a qualitative difference in every single segment of our society, including within the Church. 

Quote

And the family all excited when they hear that heartbeat agrees.  They do not say, "A heartbeat!  it is a life but not on the same level of a born human!"  They KNOW it is LIFE...

And you have admitted it is a life.  Therefore, the taking of that life is killing

This is junior high school rhetoric. You are clearly incapable of engaging this issue on an adult level.

[UtahTexan]

1 minute ago, maklelan said:

But it's justified if the fetus wouldn't live past birth, or if it's the result of rape? What makes taking those lives not killing? Before you get to that, though, please support your statement that "a life is a life," despite the fact that we unilaterally acknowledge a qualitative difference in every single segment of our society, including within the Church. 

This is junior high school rhetoric. You are clearly incapable of engaging this issue on an adult level.

lol...you said you were done here.  Are you a man of your word?

I am actually engaging on a very adult level.  You simply cannot sustain your argument.  You have admitted it is a life....therefore, taking that life is killing.  You hate my comments about the heartbeat, because they are true.

 

[maklelan]

2 minutes ago, CountryBoy said:

lol...you said you were done here.  Are you a man of your word?

I am actually engaging on a very adult level.  You simply cannot sustain your argument.  You have admitted it is a life....therefore, taking that life is killing.  You hate my comments about the heartbeat, because they are true.

 

I said we would be done here if you couldn't engage my concern, and you have not. You're appealing to silly red herrings and strawmen. Repeating "a life is a life" without any comment at all about my pointing out that that statement is not supported by anything in or outside the Church betrays just how little you have in the way of logic or evidence to help your case. The fact that a fetus has a heartbeat is absolutely and entirely irrelevant, as I explained already in great detail. You have not so much as acknowledged my comments, much less responded to them. You cannot engage this on an adult level. You're on ignore.

[UtahTexan]

5 minutes ago, maklelan said:

I said we would be done here if you couldn't engage my concern, and you have not. You're appealing to silly red herrings and strawmen. Repeating "a life is a life" without any comment at all about my pointing out that that statement is not supported by anything in or outside the Church betrays just how little you have in the way of logic or evidence to help your case. The fact that a fetus has a heartbeat is absolutely and entirely irrelevant, as I explained already in great detail. You have not so much as acknowledged my comments, much less responded to them. You cannot engage this on an adult level. You're on ignore.

lol....I do not blame you.  It is always best to ignore truth when you cannot sustain an argument against it.

Life is life.  taking life is killing.

You have admitted it is life.  Families who hear the heartbeat are excited at the life.

And that is fact

[Bobbieaware]

29 minutes ago, CountryBoy said:

lol....I do not blame you.  It is always best to ignore truth when you cannot sustain an argument against it.

Life is life.  taking life is killing.

You have admitted it is life.  Families who hear the heartbeat are excited at the life.

And that is fact

Thank God -- and I mean that most gratefully and sincerely -- that we have living prophets to give us the Lord's perspective on abortion. Read now the inspired and inspiring words of Elder Russel M. Nelson, an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ:

 

Abortion: An Assault on the Defenseless - Ensign Oct. 2008

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2008/10/abortion-an-assault-on-the-defenseless?lang=eng&cid=email-shared

[Calm]

On August 22, 2016 at 4:53 PM, JLHPROF said:

I don't think that follows.

Being pro-choice implies that the abortion be available by choice, ie, whenever requested.
The Church position is that the abortion only be available when absolutely necessary - required, not elective.
 

But it is the woman who gets to make that choice, though in consultation with those who are appropriate (her doctors, bishop or other spiritual leader, spouse, family).

[Calm]

2 hours ago, CountryBoy said:

It amazes me that the same folks who will protest to save a tree will fight to kill a baby. 

Mak is probook so I don't see him arguing that a tree comes before a baby or much of anything.  And it is absurd and inappropriate to describe his comments as fighting to kill a baby or implying support of those who do.

A person can be prochoice, pro-aggressively teaching appropriate and safe birth control, including abstinence before marriage, pro considering adoption before abortion if conception has already occurred, pro abortion as the last option when all other avenues have been explored, but still prochoice.

Mak has given no indication that he thinks abortion should be treated casually just because he believes it should be legal.

There will be no persuading to look at the subject in a new perspective of anyone, Mak, lurkers or anyone else if his position is not understood or represented correctly.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, CountryBoy said:

I am actually engaging on a very adult level.  

Have you addressed the issue of the acceptable killing of the fetus if it is product of rape or will not survive (or because the mother's health is at risk)?

[UtahTexan]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

Mak is prebook so I don't see him arguing that a tree comes before a baby or much of anything.

A person can be prochoice, pro-aggressively teaching appropriate and safe birth control, including abstinence before marriage, pro considering adoption before abortion if conception has already occurred, pro abortion as the last option when all other avenues have been explored, but still prochoice.

Mak has given no indication that he thinks abortion should be treated casually just because he believes it should be legal.

There will be no persuading to look at the subject in a new perspective of anyone, Mak, lurkers or anyone else if his position is not understood or represented correctly.

I rarely get involved in the abortion discussion.  But, it seems abortion folks were dominating here. 

I was pretty ambivalent about the issue till my son.  I heard his heartbeat at two weeks or so and was blown away.

Then, when my wife was pregnant with our daughter, I was told by the docs we needed to abort.  They assured me the baby would not make it....and perhaps even my wife.  I was told over and over that I would likely have to make a choice during delivery on which would live.

We simply could not kill that baby.  We went to term.  Tough pregnancy all 9 months.  Constant issues.  She was born healthy.  Both lived.  I was so thankful we did not do what the docs told us to do. 

[Nemesis]

Ok thread bans are back and I was able to remove those that cant seem to be able to have a discussions.

Nemesis

[thesometimesaint]

18 hours ago, CountryBoy said:

Because we ask about birthday, not conception day.  

How about this: Have you ever talked to a couple having a baby?  A couple of weeks into the pregnancy...they get to hear the heartbeat for the first time.  Do they say, "wow.....a lump!"  No...they are excited because it is a LIFE.  They have heard the heartbeat.  They tell all their friends and family.  Why?  because it is ALIVE.  THEIR child!  They talk to it...they buy things for it.....long before the birth.......

It is six weeks, and may not be detected until live birth

[The Nehor]

23 hours ago, CountryBoy said:

a life is a life.  taking that life is killing.  No matter how badly you wish to justify it.

And the family all excited when they hear that heartbeat agrees.  They do not say, "A heartbeat!  it is a life but not on the same level of a born human!"  They KNOW it is LIFE...

And you have admitted it is a life.  Therefore, the taking of that life is killing

The Church disagrees. When I was out on my mission we had HAPPI and the Big One.

The Big One was a situation that required First Presidency approval for baptism. That would be murder.

HAPPI meant you needed a member of the Mission Presidency to  interview  them.

H Homosexual conduct

A Abortion or consenting to one

P Prison sentence 

P Prostitution, either being one or using one.

I Incest

 

If abortion is truly murder then we are doing it wrong. If abortion is sometimes or even usually a sin but less of a sin then murder then our hierarchy makes sense.

Add to that that 30% to 40% of fertilized eggs miscarry in the first trimester. If life begins at conception then then we are blithely ignoring genocide. Seriously. Why are there no demands that medical research take place to avert this holocaust? By your logic a third of our children are dying and no one is doing anything about it or even cares. Why are "life begins at conception" advocates focusing on the relatively rare abortions and pass over the hordes of children dying daily without saying a word?

I dislike abortion. Almost everyone does. But if people want to trumpet that life begins at conception then they need to be consistent and follow it through and seek to protect all human life under their definition.

Edited August 24, 2016 by The Nehor