Apologetic attacks

[Wiki Wonka]

4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

He complains in the video you linked that Scott said he's an atheist, which is not technically correct.  He said he doesn't believe in God.  There's a difference, that I think John is aware of. 

Scott never said that JD was an "atheist". Here are Scott's words, plus some footnotes associated with the statement that he did make: "He has long believed there is no God."

 

 

Scott Gordon said:

This second example here is called Mormon Stories. It was established by another member. He was counseled by his stake president many, many times, but he was finally excommunicated this past year. This website mostly focuses on the Church’s stances on social issues such as gay marriage and women in the Church. I know this man personally and have had many conversations with him. His sister is a member of FairMormon. He has long believed there is no God. [1] but the Church is a nice social organization, and he’s been attempting to fix it for a long time. So, he hasn’t wanted to leave because it’s such a nice group of people, but God doesn’t exist.

[1] I came to this conclusion he doesn't believe in what a Latter-day Saint would view as God with his comments such as this one, “I’m at the point where I realize that God, the probability that God exists is quite low. . . . As I look at the probability that everything that we have here is just random, and there’s no purpose or meaning to it, that actually seems almost as absurd as the idea that there is some type of God. Those seem almost equally absurd to me. . . . there has been enough support for what I’ve tried to do that I just call that God. I slap the ‘God’ label on that, fully aware that there is a low probability that there actually is anything. . . . I’m aware that might be completely a product of my imagination.” (John Larsen and Zilpa Larsen, “Episode 180: John Dehlin,” podcast interview with John Dehlin, 2 January 2012, http://www.mormonexpression.com,11:45–15:44)

 

 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2016 by Wiki Wonka

[jkwilliams]

16 minutes ago, Wiki Wonka said:

Scott never said that JD was an "atheist". Here are Scott's words, plus some footnotes associated with the statement that he did make: "He has long believed there is no God."

Scott Gordon said:

This second example here is called Mormon Stories. It was established by another member. He was counseled by his stake president many, many times, but he was finally excommunicated this past year. This website mostly focuses on the Church’s stances on social issues such as gay marriage and women in the Church. I know this man personally and have had many conversations with him. His sister is a member of FairMormon. He has long believed there is no God. [1] but the Church is a nice social organization, and he’s been attempting to fix it for a long time. So, he hasn’t wanted to leave because it’s such a nice group of people, but God doesn’t exist.

[1] I came to this conclusion he doesn't believe in what a Latter-day Saint would view as God with his comments such as this one, “I’m at the point where I realize that God, the probability that God exists is quite low. . . . As I look at the probability that everything that we have here is just random, and there’s no purpose or meaning to it, that actually seems almost as absurd as the idea that there is some type of God. Those seem almost equally absurd to me. . . . there has been enough support for what I’ve tried to do that I just call that God. I slap the ‘God’ label on that, fully aware that there is a low probability that there actually is anything. . . . I’m aware that might be completely a product of my imagination.” (John Larsen and Zilpa Larsen, “Episode 180: John Dehlin,” podcast interview with John Dehlin, 2 January 2012, http://www.mormonexpression.com,11:45–15:44)

Sounds like Dehlin is an agnostic. He says he doesn't believe that life is random and meaningless, so whatever meaning and driving force behind life is "God." I don't see that as "He has long believed there is no God" or that "God doesn't exist." But that's just me.

Either way, I'm not sure why Dehlin's belief or lack thereof is relevant to a discussion of his web site or its contents and purpose. Is Dehlin trying to get people to stop believing in God? That would be relevant, I would think.

I don't care much either way, but it seems like unnecessary well-poisoning to this inveterate apostate.

[Calm]

If the individual is using his status as a faithful member to increase the credibility of his site, to make it more attractive to LDS members, then pointing out that he isn't what is normally understood as faithful seems to be on point and not well poisoning.

I believe it was Juliann who posted the quote earlier in the thread where Dehlin himself says he doesn't accept the label because that would cut into his audience.

[jkwilliams]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

If the individual is using his status as a faithful member to increase the credibility of his site, to make it more attractive to LDS members, then pointing out that he isn't what is normally understood as faithful seems to be on point and not well poisoning.

I believe it was Juliann who posted the quote earlier in the thread where Dehlin himself says he doesn't accept the label because that would cut into his audience.

Fair enough (no pun intended). I guess I didn't see Dehlin as passing himself off as a faithful member but was pretty open that he was an unbeliever who still wanted to make things work. I'm not his target audience, obviously, and admittedly I haven't paid a lot of attention to him. 

[stemelbow]

19 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Sounds like Dehlin is an agnostic. He says he doesn't believe that life is random and meaningless, so whatever meaning and driving force behind life is "God." I don't see that as "He has long believed there is no God" or that "God doesn't exist." But that's just me.

Either way, I'm not sure why Dehlin's belief or lack thereof is relevant to a discussion of his web site or its contents and purpose. Is Dehlin trying to get people to stop believing in God? That would be relevant, I would think.

I don't care much either way, but it seems like unnecessary well-poisoning to this inveterate apostate.

I think it only fair for believers to view agnostics as not believing in God.  There's no reason to question one's intention when a believer categorizes someone who is agnostic as such.  If a believer asks someone, "do you believe in God?" and they respond, "well, I'm not sure there's a God".  What is a believer to think? 

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I think it only fair for believers to view agnostics as not believing in God.  There's no reason to question one's intention when a believer categorizes someone who is agnostic as such.  If a believer asks someone, "do you believe in God?" and they respond, "well, I'm not sure there's a God".  What is a believer to think? 

I would think a believer should think the person isn't sure whether there is a God. I still believe, hope there is a God, but I don't know for sure. That would make me a hopeful agnostic, not someone who doesn't believe in God.

[stemelbow]

11 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I would think a believer should think the person isn't sure whether there is a God. I still believe, hope there is a God, but I don't know for sure. That would make me a hopeful agnostic, not someone who doesn't believe in God.

I'm fine with that.  I just see no problem if a believer views agnostics as not believing in God.  I get if a believer asks "do you believe in God?" and the response is a Dehlin explanation of there's a good chance there is no God, I want to believe, but most likely there isn't a God, and then views such an one as one who doesn't believe in God. 

As for me, even a believer, I'm more than happy to let people speak for themselves about their beliefs in God and if they have a problem with the way I would like to short answer categorize it, I'll gladly step aside and let the explanation speak for itself. 

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I'm fine with that.  I just see no problem if a believer views agnostics as not believing in God.  I get if a believer asks "do you believe in God?" and the response is a Dehlin explanation of there's a good chance there is no God, I want to believe, but most likely there isn't a God, and then views such an one as one who doesn't believe in God. 

As for me, even a believer, I'm more than happy to let people speak for themselves about their beliefs in God and if they have a problem with the way I would like to short answer categorize it, I'll gladly step aside and let the explanation speak for itself. 

I guess I don't quite understand why Dehlin's belief in God was brought up. Heaven knows just mentioning that he was excommunicated for apostasy ought to have been sufficient for letting people know who and what he is. Oh, well, this isn't a hill worth dying on. As I said before, I'm not the target audience for Scott Gordon's talk. From my perspective, it was the kind of "red meat" one should expect from that type of gathering.

[stemelbow]

16 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I guess I don't quite understand why Dehlin's belief in God was brought up. Heaven knows just mentioning that he was excommunicated for apostasy ought to have been sufficient for letting people know who and what he is. Oh, well, this isn't a hill worth dying on. As I said before, I'm not the target audience for Scott Gordon's talk. From my perspective, it was the kind of "red meat" one should expect from that type of gathering.

And I'm like, "who cares why he said what he said?"  I don't see anything worth making an issue out of it or get suspicious of the intent.  I don't find it altogether inaccurate, so I see no reason to question his motives for saying it. 

[Calm]

53 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I guess I don't quite understand why Dehlin's belief in God was brought up.

To help people better understand the bias of any information they find there, I suspect.  There is nothing in the "About" section to indicate personal belief about the truth claims of the Church.

I think it is important to be very open about one's own paradigm if one is going to be involved in apologetic discussions.  For example, I think FM provides a clear definition of ourselves as defenders of our faith:

http://www.fairmormon.org/about-fairmormon

 

[rongo]

14 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

 I still believe, hope there is a God, but I don't know for sure. That would make me a hopeful agnostic, not someone who doesn't believe in God.

And that puts you much more solidly in the "leaning believer" category than Dehlin, using his own words any time he explains his belief/doubt himself.

Edited July 23, 2016 by rongo

[thatjimguy]

On 7/13/2016 at 8:27 AM, stemelbow said:

I recall some years ago there was a pretty good effort to say LDS apologists attack the person, often, and fail to address the issues.  I think there were some cases wherein apologists in officially sanctioned sounding apologetics venues went way overboard.  But I also came away wondering what the big complaint was, for the most part.  As most attacks listed were not really attacks, or were pretty benign.

It's gotten much better over the last few years. The problem certainly did exist at one time though.

[Jeanne]

On 7/22/2016 at 9:17 AM, stemelbow said:

I'm fine with that.  I just see no problem if a believer views agnostics as not believing in God.  I get if a believer asks "do you believe in God?" and the response is a Dehlin explanation of there's a good chance there is no God, I want to believe, but most likely there isn't a God, and then views such an one as one who doesn't believe in God. 

As for me, even a believer, I'm more than happy to let people speak for themselves about their beliefs in God and if they have a problem with the way I would like to short answer categorize it, I'll gladly step aside and let the explanation speak for itself. 

This is how I feel too.  It is just respect for others and their beliefs and being at least open enough to listen. 

[Jeanne]

Whether Dehlin believes in God or not..doesn't change anything for me.  He could tell me his thoughts on things..but it is and will always be my decision and with respect for his.