theplains Posted July 20, 2016 Posted July 20, 2016 10 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Oh gosh. You are not comprehending this at all. Please describe what "nature" even means. One is a spirit, one has a body, one is good and the other evil. You have to drop the 800 year old logic that says because we have the word "nature" it must describe a thing of some kind which has attributes magically attached. It does not. The word is confusing you. It seems that you are unable to explain what if any changes occurred to Jesus when he became a God. I'll see if I can get more assistance from a missionary. Jim
Vance Posted July 20, 2016 Posted July 20, 2016 (edited) 47 minutes ago, theplains said: It seems that you are unable to explain what if any changes occurred to Jesus when he became a God. I'll see if I can get more assistance from a missionary. Jim Define what you mean by "a God". My understanding is that Jesus was a God in the beginning (as in John 1:1) and no where along the way did he lose his divine status. He did, however become complete/whole/mature/perfect upon his resurrection. SOOO, I guess I am rejecting the premise of your question. Now, if you want, we could discuss what "in the beginning" actually means. (Does eternity have a beginning?) Edited July 20, 2016 by Vance typo 1
mfbukowski Posted July 20, 2016 Posted July 20, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, theplains said: It seems that you are unable to explain what if any changes occurred to Jesus when he became a God. I'll see if I can get more assistance from a missionary. Jim "Became"? He was always God. John 1- He created the earth. "The Word WAS God" Time makes no sense here. Good luck. You seem to not be able to think in different categories than those you have been taught. Edited July 20, 2016 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted July 20, 2016 Posted July 20, 2016 1 hour ago, Vance said: Define what you mean by "a God". My understanding is that Jesus was a God in the beginning (as in John 1:1) and no where along the way did he lose his divine status. He did, however become complete/whole/mature/perfect upon his resurrection. SOOO, I guess I am rejecting the premise of your question. Now, if you want, we could discuss what "in the beginning" actually means. (Does eternity have a beginning?) I wrote my reply before I saw yours and we essentially said the same thing. Not surprising really! 1
theplains Posted July 20, 2016 Posted July 20, 2016 16 hours ago, mfbukowski said: "Became"? He was always God. John 1- He created the earth. "The Word WAS God" According to LDS Church teachings in that manual, Jesus became a God. "By obedience and devotion to the truth he (Jesus) attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while yet in his pre-existent state" (Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, 2004, page 10). Jim
Vance Posted July 22, 2016 Posted July 22, 2016 On 7/20/2016 at 2:06 PM, theplains said: According to LDS Church teachings in that manual, Jesus became a God. "By obedience and devotion to the truth he (Jesus) attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while yet in his pre-existent state" (Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, 2004, page 10). Jim Now maybe I am splitting hairs, BUT, NO WHERE in that statement does it say Jesus "became" a divine person or a (little g) god. Perhaps you are not grasping the difference between being a god and being a God. You do know that Jesus even made progress AFTER his resurrection, right? You know the, (Matt 28:18) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. So, Jesus didn't always have "all power" because it was "given" to him. Jesus was divine (a god) before "all power" was given to him. Just some things to ponder.
theplains Posted July 25, 2016 Posted July 25, 2016 On 21/07/2016 at 10:42 PM, Vance said: Now maybe I am splitting hairs, BUT, NO WHERE in that statement does it say Jesus "became" a divine person or a (little g) god. Perhaps you are not grasping the difference between being a god and being a God. You do know that Jesus even made progress AFTER his resurrection, right? You know the, (Matt 28:18) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. So, Jesus didn't always have "all power" because it was "given" to him. Jesus was divine (a god) before "all power" was given to him. Just some things to ponder. If Jesus was always a God, he never needed to attain something to be ranked as a God. Even missionaries I speak to admit Jesus became a God, so I'm not sure what sect you are from. If you don't believe me, have a chat with them at www.mormon.org. They will tell you that even Heavenly Father became a God because Joseph Smith taught that. Jim
Vance Posted July 26, 2016 Posted July 26, 2016 3 hours ago, theplains said: If Jesus was always a God, he never needed to attain something to be ranked as a God. Even missionaries I speak to admit Jesus became a God, so I'm not sure what sect you are from. If you don't believe me, have a chat with them at www.mormon.org. They will tell you that even Heavenly Father became a God because Joseph Smith taught that. Jim Perhaps you are not grasping the difference between being a god and being a God.
theplains Posted July 27, 2016 Posted July 27, 2016 On 25/07/2016 at 10:11 PM, Vance said: Perhaps you are not grasping the difference between being a god and being a God. "All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like him—a god. He has said, “Behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). [source: Gospel Principles, 1997, page 9]. Regards, Jim
mfbukowski Posted July 27, 2016 Posted July 27, 2016 On 7/20/2016 at 1:06 PM, theplains said: According to LDS Church teachings in that manual, Jesus became a God. "By obedience and devotion to the truth he (Jesus) attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while yet in his pre-existent state" (Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, 2004, page 10). Jim Jesus was a co-creator of the universe with the father and was therefore God. John 1 He attained this status of God before time was organized, therefore from our perspective he was always God. 3
Five Solas Posted July 28, 2016 Author Posted July 28, 2016 4 hours ago, mfbukowski said: ... He [Jesus] attained this status of God before time was organized, therefore from our perspective he was always God. That word "before"--implies linearity. Yet only a couple posts earlier you were dispatching an LDS skeptic/critic by saying "time makes no sense here." That's actually quite funny. What your arguments lack in coherence--you more than compensate with your consistency, mfbukowski. ;0) --Erik
mfbukowski Posted July 28, 2016 Posted July 28, 2016 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Five Solas said: That word "before"--implies linearity. Yet only a couple posts earlier you were dispatching an LDS skeptic/critic by saying "time makes no sense here." That's actually quite funny. What your arguments lack in coherence--you more than compensate with your consistency, mfbukowski. ;0) --Erik The absurdity does not come from me but from Jim's questioning the original quote Quote "By obedience and devotion to the truth he (Jesus) attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while yet in his pre-existent state" (Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, 2004, page 10). The entire concept of the "pre-existence" does not make sense except within the context of a "time before time", and to question that is impossible It is a paradox, how could there even "exist" spirits in the "pre-existence"?? How could God exist before he existed? Yet in the context of multiple time lines, multiverses and multiple "eternities" and "worlds without end" human language itself is inadequate to even think about this stuff verbally unless you understand the concepts. One who understands the concepts instantly realizes the absurdity of the question in simply re-stating the apparent paradox And yes you pegged your own answer and you didn't even see it TIME DOESNT MAKE SENSE HERE which is why your point about Quote That word "before"--implies linearity. answers your own question! Again you still do not understand category errors. We are speaking about a concept where time makes no sense and yet are stuck with linear language. What did God do for eons "before" he created the earth, according to you? Have you ever thought about that? WHY did he do it in the first place? Was he lonely floating around and had nothing to do?] How could he even exist to create "before the beginning"?? "In the beginning God created the earth" HOW did he even exist before that TO create the earth?? You just solve it with his "divine nature"- making up some words with no meaning. He is "self - existent". Yet he existed when there was no existence. Yeah, sure. uh huh The Great Exception to every possible linguistic representation. Sorry. That doesn't work for me- it is answering one paradox with another Quote That word "before"--implies linearity. So I guess then the bible is wrong. He blinked into existence with the earth? So who created him then? Protestants don't even think about these issues that we have solved 180 years ago Heck yeah its a paradox but don't pretend you are immune to the same criticism!! You don't even TRY to solve it And thanks, yes I think I AM consistent Edited July 28, 2016 by mfbukowski 2
Vance Posted July 29, 2016 Posted July 29, 2016 On 7/27/2016 at 2:27 PM, theplains said: "All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like him—a god. He has said, “Behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). [source: Gospel Principles, 1997, page 9]. Regards, Jim That is not a demonstration that you understand the difference.
theplains Posted July 29, 2016 Posted July 29, 2016 17 hours ago, Vance said: That is not a demonstration that you understand the difference. According to the manual I quoted, God [i.e. Heavenly Father] is a god. This is his glorious work prescribed for you if you believe the passage. Thanks Jim
Vance Posted July 30, 2016 Posted July 30, 2016 20 hours ago, theplains said: According to the manual I quoted, God [i.e. Heavenly Father] is a god. This is his glorious work prescribed for you if you believe the passage. Thanks Jim And yet Jesus said "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;" Did Jesus hereby elevate them to the rank of God? or were they of a lesser divine status? Still not demonstrating that you grasp the difference between a "god" and a "God".
whirlingmerc Posted August 1, 2016 Posted August 1, 2016 I think Imagio Deo, man in the image of God, means man was made to reflect and reflect on God's glory. Man is made for God's glory http://www.slideshare.net/MichaelScaman/for-the-fame-of-your-name-from-the-psalms
mfbukowski Posted August 1, 2016 Posted August 1, 2016 3 hours ago, whirlingmerc said: I think Imagio Deo, man in the image of God, means man was made to reflect and reflect on God's glory. Man is made for God's glory http://www.slideshare.net/MichaelScaman/for-the-fame-of-your-name-from-the-psalms Well yes, I don't think anyone would disagree with that- but what does it MEAN? We are made to share his glory and yes we should think about that and yes we should try to emulate Him and thereby "reflect" his countenance Those words are hard to disagree with
theplains Posted August 1, 2016 Posted August 1, 2016 On 30/07/2016 at 11:04 AM, Vance said: And yet Jesus said "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;" Did Jesus hereby elevate them to the rank of God? or were they of a lesser divine status? Still not demonstrating that you grasp the difference between a "god" and a "God". Psalm 82 is about condemnation, not exaltation. According to the Gospel Principles manual that I referred to, Heavenly Father (God) is a god. Jim
Vance Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 Still not demonstrating that you grasp the difference between a "god" and a "God".
Ahab Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 20 hours ago, Vance said: Still not demonstrating that you grasp the difference between a "god" and a "God". There is only one true God, if by God you are referring to the most supreme kind of being in all of existence. If anything is not that kind of being then that thing is not the true God. But the question still remains: what kind of being is the true God?
Recommended Posts