Miracles in Living Memory: Sometimes One Forgets

[USU78]

After my grandfather mustered out of the army at the end of WWI, he came home, got engaged, then embarked on a 3-year mission to Hawai'i, starting in 1919.  He first worked up in the Pacific Northwest until passage to Hawai'i could be arranged.  The following incident happened during a mission conference on Mau'i:

Quote

Sep 30 1920:  A hymn was sung.  Prayer.  Another hymn.  Then a few remarks by Pres [E Wesley] Smith, who then took Bro Manuia Hanu by the hand and proceeded to walk toward the water (I wish to explain that a terrific storm was in progress at sea, and that the waves were high, breaking two to four feet high at the beach).  As they stepped into the water, the waves levelled off before them, and as they advanced further, the waves continued to level off until they had arrived at a point of sufficient depth to perform the baptism.  From this point back to the shore the waters were as quiet as a mill pond, but beyond them the waves were high and wild.  After the baptism, they returned to the shore, the angry waves following at their heels, and as they stepped back on the beach, the water was as angry as before clear to the shore. 

The WWI generation was the generation born to polygynist parents at the end of the XIXth Century.  When we go about criticizing them and their parents and grandparents, the latter being the pioneers, claiming that the leadership was corrupted by lust, the practitioners of polygyny obscene child molesters, and children's lives ruined by the practice, it's good to reflect now and again the fruits of their work, and the many recorded evidences of G-d's approval of the work.  My grandfather was in his early 20s when he witnessed this event, and President Smith probably in his 40s or 50s, he being of that last polygynist generation.

 

Edited June 24, 2016 by Nemesis
Thread banning

[boblloyd91]

There are numerous stories such as this in church history. I agree it's silly that people get stuck on certain things when there were some really amazing things that happened. Of recent memory is the cultural celebration the night before the Payson Temple dedication. It was extremely rainy and wet right before it was to begin, and after a prayer the clouds immediately began moving away from the stadium, allowing the performance to begin. As soon as it was over the rain quickly resumed. There were several first hand witnesses from my ward who informed me of this.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

So miracles are real and God lives because ... there was a lull in the shore break? 

I grew up in Hawaii. I've seen stuff like this happen more times than I can count. There is nothing in this story that even hints at any form of divine intervention whatsoever, and it's obscene to suggest that some God has the time and ability to calm these waves rather than, say, the 2004 Indian Ocean Tsunami that killed 280,000 people. 

Edited June 23, 2016 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[USU78]

2 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

So miracles are real and God lives because ... there was a lull in the shore break? 

I grew up in Hawaii. I've seen stuff like this happen more times than I can count. There is nothing in this story that even hints at any form of divine intervention whatsoever, and it's obscene to suggest that some God has the time and ability to calm these waves rather than, say, the 2004 Indian Ocean Tsunami that killed 280,000 people. 

Thank you for your submission, but please don't drag the thread down your rabbit hole.  If you want to start yet another thread on your pet topic, please feel free.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

So miracles are real and God lives because ... there was a lull in the shore break? 

I grew up in Hawaii. I've seen stuff like this happen more times than I can count. There is nothing in this story that even hints at any form of divine intervention whatsoever, and it's obscene to suggest that some God has the time and ability to calm these waves rather than, say, the 2004 Indian Ocean Tsunami that killed 280,000 people.

False dichotomy.  Try again.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

God, an exalted man like ourselves made of flesh and bone, lives on an earth light-years away, and He is powerful enough that from across that unimaginably great distance He can manipulate the elements at an atomic level; while He is communicating constantly through the Light of Christ with 7 billion people on this planet (and uncountable others over worlds without number), He is also tweaking things so that His followers are given 'evidence' that is so utterly vague it could be interpreted any way they choose. He is given credit when a few waves calm down enough that a few mammals can dunk each other in the ocean; He is also given credit when natural disasters such as the cyclone in Fiji happen not to prevent a Temple dedication. Meanwhile, this same God chooses not to intervene when a Tsunami kills hundreds of thousands of people.

It just seems to me that there is an absolutely enormous intellectual leap necessary for these propositions to be causally related in any way. Please, if there is an actual argument beyond mere assertion, detail the exact logical chain you are basing your conclusions on, without merely implying that there must be an answer, somehow, somewhere. 

I do not understand how people can reconcile these issues. I would sincerely like to. Can someone actually explain it to me?

No. No one ever has, and no one ever will, because no one ever can. 

Of course people 'forget' the 'miracles in living memory'; there is absolutely zero evidence, none, that they occur outside of our own minds. I Prophesy that no matter how long this thread goes on, and no matter how many one-liners are tossed off, no one will be able to give a successful theodicy which shows why God would take the time to calm the waves so someone can get baptized, but does not take the time to calm the waves that killed 280,000 people. 
 

280,000 people! 

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

God, an exalted man like ourselves made of flesh and bone, lives on an earth light-years away, and He is powerful enough that from across that unimaginably great distance He can manipulate the elements at an atomic level; while He is communicating constantly through the Light of Christ with 7 billion people on this planet (and uncountable others over worlds without number), He is also tweaking things so that His followers are given 'evidence' that is so utterly vague it could be interpreted any way they choose. He is given credit when a few waves calm down enough that a few mammals can dunk each other in the ocean; He is also given credit when natural disasters such as the cyclone in Fiji happen not to prevent a Temple dedication. Meanwhile, this same God chooses not to intervene when a Tsunami kills hundreds of thousands of people.

It just seems to me that there is an absolutely enormous intellectual leap necessary for these propositions to be causally related in any way. Please, if there is an actual argument beyond mere assertion, detail the exact logical chain you are basing your conclusions on, without merely implying that there must be an answer, somehow, somewhere. 

I do not understand how people can reconcile these issues. I would sincerely like to. Can someone actually explain it to me?

No. No one ever has, and no one ever will, because no one ever can. 

Of course people 'forget' the 'miracles in living memory'; there is absolutely zero evidence, none, that they occur outside of our own minds. I Prophesy that no matter how long this thread goes on, and no matter how many one-liners are tossed off, no one will be able to give a successful theodicy which shows why God would take the time to calm the waves so someone can get baptized, but does not take the time to calm the waves that killed 280,000 people. 
 

280,000 people! 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/12/1227_041226_tsunami_2.html

I like the story about how this fella saved his village on 1500 people! I also read about how some scientists predicted the Hurricane Katrina disaster but who listened? if people won't believe who they can see why would they believe who they can't who might be influencing those they can see, see?!

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

That's my point. The only 'saviors' that ever actually show up are us mere mortals. 

[ERMD]

From Wikipedia:

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion,[3] often for their own amusement.

This sense of the word "troll" and its associated verb trolling are associated with Internet discourse, but have been used more widely. Media attention in recent years has equated trolling with online harassment. For example, mass media has used troll to describe "a person who defaces Internet tribute sites with the aim of causing grief to families."[4][5] In addition, depictions of trolling have been included in popular fictional works such as the HBO television program The Newsroom, in which a main character encounters harassing individuals online and tries to infiltrate their circles by posting negative sexual comments himself.

Edited June 24, 2016 by ERMD
source

[Duncan]

28 minutes ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

That's my point. The only 'saviors' that ever actually show up are us mere mortals. 

saviours is spelled with a U in it so....

[USU78]

16 hours ago, Duncan said:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/12/1227_041226_tsunami_2.html

I like the story about how this fella saved his village on 1500 people! I also read about how some scientists predicted the Hurricane Katrina disaster but who listened? if people won't believe who they can see why would they believe who they can't who might be influencing those they can see, see?!

A nice point, but we don't want to encourage the troll.

[USU78]

16 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

That's my point.

And it's off-topic.  Please knock it off.

[USU78]

17 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

False dichotomy.  Try again.

Also a nice point, but off-topic.  Please don't feed the

Edited June 24, 2016 by USU78
Fumble fingers