Reinterpreting Joseph's Understanding of the Word Translate

[Johnnie Cake]

40 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

To be fair most members don't even think about this.  They assume it all fits together neatly because the scriptures are meaningful to them.  What more do they need than that?  It's not much different for us members who realize the BoA is not found on the papyrus.  What does it matter if the scriptures carry weight and meaning to me?  So, we can't figure out what Joseph was doing when he came up with scripture.  he might not fully realize what was going on, I guess. 

Ummm.. I'm pretty sure he knew exactly what he was doing...he had been doing it his entire life.

[thesometimesaint]

23 hours ago, coolrok7 said:

The KJV is the official translation used by the "MORMON CHURCH" in which was translated from Greek manuscripts (the Textus Receptus if I'm not mistaken) still in existence

It still is. However the KJV is not nor has it ever been the only version used by the Church members. For reasons of commonality we use the KJV in English speaking countries. We accept the Bible as far as it is translated correctly. The KJV itself was translated from several available text, and was just the agreement of a team of scholars who added words they thought sounded nice. 

BTW Our name is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Not the Mormon Church".

Ps; SEE http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/italics.html

Edited June 8, 2016 by thesometimesaint

[stemelbow]

Just now, Johnnie Cake said:

Ummm.. I'm pretty sure he knew exactly what he was doing...he had been doing it his entire life.

Sure.  But I try to put myself in his shoes.  If somehow I had received revelation.  That that revelation came to me and I was supposed to have another write it down, like in the case of the BoM. I dont' know I'd know exactly what was going on behind the scenes.  All I may know is that some inspiration is coming to me.  I might assume the stories and/or words I'm getting is a translation of the plates, but I might not really know at all. 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

.....................  But as the stories of history have unfolded since JS's day, the word translate was there.  He used the word to describe it all.  It's hard to renounce it now.  Was the BoM translated from one language to another by JS?  Maybe not.  Who knows.  See ya plates.  They're gone anyway.  What's the significant difference between JS' scriptures and the Bible in this sense?  the Bible doesn't seem to be much more than a collection of different stories possibly made up by unknown people attributed to legendary people. 

One of the largest errors made by Fawn Brodie was to assume that the meaning of words today is the same as the meaning of words yesterday.  Non-Mormon historians hit her very hard for that mistake (presentism), but Brodie was not a professional historian and had never been trained to think systematically about the meaning of words in another time and place.  All she had to do was to consult the OED or the 1828 Webster's, but she didn't do it, because she was unaware of the need to do so.

The same applies to offhand views of the Bible, without any training whatsoever -- and I'm not  talking about Sunday School.  Brodie's ignorance and biblical illiteracy led her to make completely false claims, thus misleading generations of people who knew even less than she.

[Gray]

29 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Sure.  But I try to put myself in his shoes.  If somehow I had received revelation.  That that revelation came to me and I was supposed to have another write it down, like in the case of the BoM. I dont' know I'd know exactly what was going on behind the scenes.  All I may know is that some inspiration is coming to me.  I might assume the stories and/or words I'm getting is a translation of the plates, but I might not really know at all. 

I think Joseph Smith sincerely thought he had the ability to restore ancient texts by revelation, just as he believed he could see buried treasure by revelation. That was the water he was swimming in for his whole life. 

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, Gray said:

I think Joseph Smith sincerely thought he had the ability to restore ancient texts by revelation, just as he believed he could see buried treasure by revelation. That was the water he was swimming in for his whole life. 

Maybe.  But what he thought was happening might not have been what was happening.  That's all I mean. 

[Gray]

9 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Maybe.  But what he thought was happening might not have been what was happening.  That's all I mean. 

Right, I agree there. I don't think people can translate ancient text by revelation, or restore lost histories by revelation. They can, however, create new scripture. 

[thesometimesaint]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Right, I agree there. I don't think people can translate ancient text by revelation, or restore lost histories by revelation. They can, however, create new scripture. 

The Church is based on Revelation, and restoration of ancient histories.

[Gray]

9 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

The Church is based on Revelation, and restoration of ancient histories.

That has been the traditional assumption. Upon reflection and study, I don't think any ancient histories have been restored. We do have some interesting and valuable new midrashim on Moses and Abraham.

[carbon dioxide]

On 6/6/2016 at 3:33 PM, Johnnie Cake said:

Joseph Smith claimed that he “Translated” Golden Plates…yet if they ever existed he never used the plates.

 

If I was Mormon and Moroni, I would be upset that they went though all the trouble to protect the plates and they are never used.  There is plenty of eyewitness testimony that the plates did exist.  Far more people have been convicted of crimes in this country by less testimony witness than they testimony witness that plates existed.  One can debate what the plates where but that is a separate issue.

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

If I was Mormon and Moroni, I would be upset that they went though all the trouble to protect the plates and they are never used.  There is plenty of eyewitness testimony that the plates did exist.  Far more people have been convicted of crimes in this country by less testimony witness than they testimony witness that plates existed.  One can debate what the plates where but that is a separate issue.

Well they presumably see more than we do, at least now that they're dead.  They might have died went to heaven saying, "fewf! that was hard work>"  God might respond.  "It might have seemed like it, but I didn't ask you to put so much effort in to protecting them.  That was your assumption.  Plus compared to all the useless work billions of others have done for no apparent reason--you got nothing to complain about, chumps." 

Mormon and Moroni:  "hah...you're right.  Can I still repent for murmuring up here?"

God:  "no unclean thing can enter....Get ready I'm wetting down my lips as I prepare to spew you out..." 

Moroni:  "wait...I've been destined to go talk to Joseph Smith at some point."

God:  "yeah, you're right.  Well, Mormon, I guess you're getting spewed by yourself.  Got a wife at least, that can travel with ya?"

Edited June 8, 2016 by stemelbow

[carbon dioxide]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Well they presumably see more than we do, at least now that they're dead.  They might have died went to heaven saying, "fewf! that was hard work>"  God might respond.  "It might have seemed like it, but I didn't ask you to put so much effort in to protecting them.  That was your assumption.  Plus compared to all the useless work billions of others have done for no apparent reason--you got nothing to complain about, chumps." 

Mormon and Moroni:  "hah...you're right.  Can I still repent for murmuring up here?"

God:  "no unclean thing can enter....Get ready I'm wetting down my lips as I prepare to spew you out..." 

Moroni:  "wait...I've been destined to go talk to Joseph Smith at some point."

God:  "yeah, you're right.  Well, Mormon, I guess you're getting spewed by yourself.  Got a wife at least, that can travel with ya?"

Perhaps God just meant for them to make a prop and scribble some writing on it.  God would do the rest.  

[omni]

4 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

If I was Mormon and Moroni, I would be upset that they went though all the trouble to protect the plates and they are never used.  There is plenty of eyewitness testimony that the plates did exist.  Far more people have been convicted of crimes in this country by less testimony witness than they testimony witness that plates existed.  One can debate what the plates where but that is a separate issue.

Forget the eye witnesses, we know Joseph could quite effectively create scripture without the use of a source text (D&C, PoG, JST).

You do raise a valid question, why were Mormon and the other prophets required to give so much care in preserving the plates when they clearly weren't required?

Edited June 8, 2016 by omni

[Glenn101]

On 6/8/2016 at 10:39 AM, consiglieri said:

I used the cling to the "missing papyrus" theory as well, Glenn, but eventually I had to face the facts.

 

Consig,

    I appreciate your reply. I just do not agree with your assessment of the facts. The "facts" concerning the coming forth of the Book of Abraham do point toward there being a lot of missing papyri. I have read much of the scholarship concerning the Book of Abraham and the KEP. Addressing each of the points of view that you expressed would take way too much time. It has all be hashed and rehashed before, so I do not expect that I would be able to alter your viewpoints, and actually some of the arguments are beyond my level of expertise and knowledge in various disciplines.

   My belief in the Book of Abraham is faith based, as is all of my belief in the Book of Mormon and the Bible. For a critic say, of the Book of Mormon, nothing less than a sign post with the word Zarahemla (in reformed Egyptian of course) that would convince him or her that the Book of Mormon is a historical document, or finding papyrii with the Book of Abraham on it, or finding a marker in Egypt saying "Land of Goshen, Israelite Territory.

   For me, after the experiences that I have had, it would require earth shattering evidence to disabuse me of the faith that I have in the Book of Abraham, the Book of Mormon, and the Bible. That has not happened yet, and it will not.

Glenn

   

[Glenn101]

On 6/8/2016 at 7:20 PM, omni said:

Forget the eye witnesses, we know Joseph could quite effectively create scripture without the use of a source text (D&C, PoG, JST).

You do raise a valid question, why were Mormon and the other prophets required to give so much care in preserving the plates when they clearly weren't required?

The plates were required. If you think about it, you will know why. But, to prod you in the direction I am looking, what would have happened if there had been no Golden Plate story but Joseph had produced the Book of Mormon claiming to have received it by revelation? There were already something like 500 different Christian denominations in the early 1800's. There may have been a bit of a flurry, but mostly I think, there would have been a contemptuous dismissal. How would Joseph had fared against the likes of Alexander Campbell or Sydney Rigdon or any other preacher of his day? Joseph may have gotten a few followers, but I doubt it, because "the heavens were closed" and no new revelation or scripture was supposed to come forth, according to the current mainstream Christian beliefs.

However, first came the Angel Moroni. Then, after several years came the plates. People saw them, touched them, hefted them. Characters were reproduced from some of them. They were real enough to wealthy farmer Martin Harris, that he was willing to finance the printing of the Book of Mormon after taking a copy of some of those characters to New York to Charles Anthon, although there is controversy as to what actually transpired there. Attempts were made to forcibly remove the plates from Joseph's possession. Then the Book of Mormon was produced.

Without the plates, I don't think anything would have happened.

 

Glenn

 

[coolrok7]

While acknowledging that is the name of your Church thesometimesaint, I don’t accept that the “MORMON CHURCH” as it advertised itself is of Jesus Christ for specific reasons, which is not meant to make light of what you and others here obviously and most sincerely believe.

 

For me it is what is taught as the “Gospel” and how it relates to actual Biblical teaching/doctrine and in this there is a radical difference while using the same terminology:

 

 

Quote

Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test. (Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young, 16:46)

 

Elder Bruce R. McConkie, while speaking at a BYU devotional to Church members in 1984, states the following (directed at Protestant Christianity):

 

 

Quote

I wonder how many of us are aware of one of the great religious phenomenon of the ages, one that is now sweeping through Protestant Christianity, as only one other thing has ever done in the whole Christian Era. . . .let me first identify the original heresy that did more than anything else to destroy primitive Christianity.

This first and chief heresy of a now fallen and decadent Christianity- and truly it is the father of all heresies-. . .pertains now to the nature and kind of being that God is. . . .a spirit essence called the Trinity. . . .The adoption of this false doctrine about God effectively destroyed true worship among men and ushered in the age of universal apostasy. . . .

This second heresy-and it is the prevailing delusion and mania that prevails to this day in the great evangelical body of Protestantism-is the doctrine that we are justified by faith alone, without the works of the law. . . .It is the doctrine that we may be born again simply by confessing the Lord Jesus with our lips while we continue to live in our sins.

 

Here, in a proselytizing pamphlet, non-Mormons are identified this way (which goes hand-in-hand with the above):

 

 

Quote

Following the death of the apostles, revelation ceased. The authority of God was no longer among men. Christianity sickened and died. In time, a new religion grew up in its place—a religion that professed to be Jesus Christ’s Church, but which in reality was a conglomerate of pagan worship and Greek philosophy, “having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.”. . .that eventually led to the complete apostasy of the true church and the eventual creation of an apostate religion that has been responsible for the extermination of the Messiah’s true followers and the persecution of his chosen people, the Jews. . . . (APOSTASY AND RESTORATION pamphlet, p.9)

 

As far as the name of the Church goes, there had been three names used within an eight year period, in case you’re not aware, one of them leaving out the name of Jesus Christ (or Messiah) altogether (“Christ” being a title not His name which is Jesus, as translated into English from a Greek manuscript, for the Hebrew, “Messiah” or “anointed one”)(my bold):

 

 

Quote

I would like to speak of the institution. . .The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, sometimes known as the Mormon Church. That is not the Church’s correct name; it is only a nickname derived from our belief in the Book of Mormon, . . .—Elder Russell M.

Nelson (AN APOSTLE’S TESTIMONY pamphlet, p.2)

 

. . .the name of the Church on the title pages of the first three printings of the revelations: “The Church of Christ- (Book of Commandments) 1833, “The Church of the Latter-day Saints” (Doctrine and Covenants, 1835), and “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (Doctrine and Covenants, 1844).” (The Ensign, January 1979, p.13)

 

If you notice the “MORMON CHURCH” quote I used is in all caps and parentheses. Note the following advertisement from a past Reader’s Digest (from last page of an insert about “Mormon missionaries” entitled, “When You Open the Door”. . .(The Mormons):

 

 

Quote

FREE 150-page BOOK answers more questions about Mormons than any other book we could send you.

 

clip, fill-in, mail this coupon to:

MORMON CHURCH

P.O. Box 30700, Salt Lake City, Utah 84150

 

shows picture of book here-

 

Please check one or more boxes below

 

Please send me the

FREE BOOK “A Marvelous

Work and a Wonder”

OR CALL TOLL FREE

1-800-331-1750

and ask for “A Marvelous Work and a Wonder”

 

I would like to talk with Mormon Missionaries

(NOTE: No one will visit unless you check here.)

My phone__________________

 

(personal Address information here)

LDS 1980

 

Pertaining to the KJV as used in the Church, the instruction concerning its usage, their names affixed to this letter, the top three official mouthpieces of the Church:

 

 

Quote

. . .Since the days of the Prophet Joseph Smith, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has used the King James Version of the Bible for English-speaking members. . . .Many versions of the Bible are available today. Unfortunately, no original manuscripts of any portion of the Bible are available for comparison to determine the most accurate version. However, the Lord has revealed clearly the doctrines of the gospel in these latter-days. The most reliable way to measure the accuracy of any biblical passage is not by comparing different texts, but by comparison with the Book of Mormon and modern-day revelations. While other Bible versions may be easier to read than the King James Version, in doctrinal matters latter-day revelation supports the King James Version in preference to other English translations. All of the Presidents of the Church, beginning with the Prophet Joseph Smith, have supported the King James Version by encouraging its continued use in the Church. In light of all the above, it is the English language Bible used by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The LDS edition of the Bible (1979) contains the King James Version supplemented and clarified by footnotes, study aids, and cross-references to the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. These four books are the standard works of the Church. We encourage all members to have their own copies of the complete standard works and to use them prayerfully in regular personal and family study, and in Church meetings and assignments.

Sincerely your brethren, Ezra Taft Benson, Gordon B. Hinckley, Thomas S. Monson (“First Presidency Statement on the King James Version of the Bible,” Ensign, Aug. 1992, 80)

 

God made Aaron to be mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in his stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don’t like it, you must lump it. (History of the Church, Joseph Smith, Vol. 6:319-20)[/quote]

 

It’s not a matter of liking it or lumping it, it’s whether or not it’s truly from God!

 

President Hinckley, while he was alive stated the following:

 

 

Quote

. . .this is the pivotal thing of our story. Every claim we make concerning divine authority, every truth that we offer concerning the validity of this work, all finds its roots in the First Vision of the boy prophet. Without it we would not have anything much to say. . .This becomes the hinge pin on which the whole cause turns. If the First Vision was true, if it actually happened, then the Book of Mormon is true. Then we have the priesthood. Then we have the Church organizations and all of the other keys and blessings of authority which we say we have. If the First Vision did not occur, then we are involved in a great sham. It is that simple. (Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley, p.237)

 

From an earlier General Authority:

 

 

Quote

THE DIVINE MISSION OF JOSEPH SMITH

CHURCH STANDS OR FALLS WITH JOSEPH SMITH.

Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed; his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false, for the doctrines of an imposter cannot be made to harmonize in all particulars with divine truth. If his claims and declarations were built upon fraud and deceit, there would appear many errors and contradictions, which would be easy to detect. The doctrines of false teachers will not stand the test when tried by the accepted standards of measurement, the scriptures. (Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, p.188, 1954 edition)

Edited June 11, 2016 by coolrok7

[thesometimesaint]

Please take one issue at a time. Your shotgun approach is too long to respond to.

[coolrok7]

Trying to delete to start over, it wouldn't let me in the given options in edit. Leaving for home from vacation. I'll try to finish later when I get home. Sorry

[rodheadlee]

On 6/8/2016 at 7:44 AM, Johnnie Cake said:

Sorry I was goaded off track from my OP.  I really don't want this thread to disintegrate into yet another thread on the particulars in the BoA.  I'm trying to understand how a believer maintains belief despite the fact that the underlying vehicle for translation, as described by Joseph Smith turns out to be something completely different from what Joseph said it was.  If Joseph was so completely wrong on what the papyri was (not being a actual writings of Abraham) why should anyone believe that he got the rest of the writings correct? In fact, just taking the facsimiles, that we do have the originals of...he didn't get these correct either.   So having been so completely discredited, logically all of it should be dismissed as rubbish. Yet members continue to believe...I've postulated that they do this by reinterpreting the word Translate as Joseph seemed to use the term, as a translation of ancient writings of Abraham,  and changed it into something completely different, a divining or a revelatory or a catalyst process.  The conclusions of Belief must be maintained even when the logical path would be to accept the BoA as compete rubbish

The thing that you fail to understand is that a witness of the Holy Spirit trumps man's logic. God telling me that these are the words of Abraham is enough for me. I need not bother myself with how they came about. I am a spiritual hard head, when God speaks to me it is rather loud and clear so it would be presumptuous of me to go behind his back and check to make sure He is not BSing me. 

[Johnnie Cake]

2 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

The thing that you fail to understand is that a witness of the Holy Spirit trumps man's logic. God telling me that these are the words of Abraham is enough for me. I need not bother myself with how they came about. I am a spiritual hard head, when God speaks to me it is rather loud and clear so it would be presumptuous of me to go behind his back and check to make sure He is not BSing me. 

You're right...you should never use that brain God gave you...never ever 

[omni]

On June 10, 2016 at 1:25 AM, Glenn101 said:

The plates were required. If you think about it, you will know why. But, to prod you in the direction I am looking, what would have happened if there had been no Golden Plate story but Joseph had produced the Book of Mormon claiming to have received it by revelation? There were already something like 500 different Christian denominations in the early 1800's. There may have been a bit of a flurry, but mostly I think, there would have been a contemptuous dismissal. How would Joseph had fared against the likes of Alexander Campbell or Sydney Rigdon or any other preacher of his day? Joseph may have gotten a few followers, but I doubt it, because "the heavens were closed" and no new revelation or scripture was supposed to come forth, according to the current mainstream Christian beliefs.

However, first came the Angel Moroni. Then, after several years came the plates. People saw them, touched them, hefted them. Characters were reproduced from some of them. They were real enough to wealthy farmer Martin Harris, that he was willing to finance the printing of the Book of Mormon after taking a copy of some of those characters to New York to Charles Anthon, although there is controversy as to what actually transpired there. Attempts were made to forcibly remove the plates from Joseph's possession. Then the Book of Mormon was produced.

Without the plates, I don't think anything would have happened.

 

Glenn

 

How many of the early Saints actually saw or touched the plates, yet had still believed enough to follow JS from state to state?  I realize the idea of gold plates makes the story of the BoM a little more interesting, but isn't the Spirit supposed to be responsible for the conversion?  IMHO, it seems like a lot of extra work for something that wasn't really needed.

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

You're right...you should never use that brain God gave you...never ever 

I'm sorry I thought you wanted to understand what makes us Believers tick. With your attitude it's easy to see why people hide that which is sacred. In other words GFYS Johnny.

Edited June 11, 2016 by rodheadlee

[busybee]

On 07/06/2016 at 3:39 PM, HappyJackWagon said:

 

The main difference of course is that most people don't claim to have an ancient record they are translating from. They simply say "I was inspired to write this." If Joseph did the same, or if the church took that approach, many problems would fade away.

 

As would the Church, because that is not what happened.

[Glenn101]

2 hours ago, omni said:

How many of the early Saints actually saw or touched the plates, yet had still believed enough to follow JS from state to state?  I realize the idea of gold plates makes the story of the BoM a little more interesting, but isn't the Spirit supposed to be responsible for the conversion?  IMHO, it seems like a lot of extra work for something that wasn't really needed.

I don't know. But they had stories/reports from men who had seen the plates. The story of the plates aroused an interest that just would not have been there otherwise. God evidently though the plates were necessary.

Glenn

[Johnnie Cake]

6 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

I'm sorry I thought you wanted to understand what makes us Believers tick. With your attitude it's easy to see why people hide that which is sacred. In other words GFYS Johnny.

Rod, if I stepped out of bounds and offended you by my post, I apologize.  It was not my intention to offend you.