Are we so frail and limited?

[stemelbow]

6 minutes ago, janderich said:

I don't have all my books with me today as I'm away on vacation but there was an interesting experience that happened to the Willie Handcart Company. It was late in the season and the leaders knew it was late to start the trek and that it very well might snow. But they believed the Lord would protect them and they told the members of the trek that he would do so if they exercised sufficient faith.

Well as we know, the snows came and many died. When they got to the Salt Lake Valley Brigham Young heavily chastised the leaders because despite the knowledge they had previously been given about the late time of year they expected the Lord to work a miracle on their behalf. BY told them they should not have tempted the Lord in such a manner. 

Now of course there are other stories about an old man who got up in church and chastised the brothers in his quorum for talking bad about the handcart companies, but I feel like we must face these hard questions. What if I was one of the company and knew it was late in the year and I might die on the trek? Am I to go forward trusting my leader even when I know it is too late? I submit that such is not faith but folly. 

At some point we must gain our own light. We are not to forever to act as babies in this gospel following our leaders or parents blindly. As with the parable of the ten virgins, when the end comes it will be our own light that we will need, not another's. It does not matter what their title is and we cannot say, "but I followed Paul!" Or, "I followed Peter!" Such excuses will hold no weight. We all must light are own way. 

That being said, I am thankful for my leaders who help me when I don't know which way to go. They have taught me many truths and I look to them for guidance when the way is not clear. But when I know how to act then I will move forward trusting the light that is in me. 

Thanks that was well put.  I wonder at point we will be held responsible for leader's who are also mortal and prone to error?  Shall we not accept that we each individually can discern truth and light that the leaders are not quite picking up?

[CV75]

16 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Thanks that was well put.  I wonder at point we will be held responsible for leader's who are also mortal and prone to error?  Shall we not accept that we each individually can discern truth and light that the leaders are not quite picking up?

This is what I was getting at with transcendence. If someone finds himself believing he has transcended his environment and believes the Lord’s servants haven’t, the only choice he has is to live his transcendence as evidenced by his charity and unity, or stand condemned for contention and enmity. That is he choice we are accountable for anyway, whether we have transcended or not. We are all the same in that regard.

When we operate on light and knowledge from the Lord, we will abide in how He set things up, which is to have fallible people lead His Church (3 Nephi 11) through councils which we may or may not be be called to participate in, but are asked to sustain always (D&C).

We are not responsible for mortal leaders who are prone to error, only ourselves who are just as prone to error. If we sense have something the leaders don’t, we will see that the Lord hasn’t given it to them to convey to the masses, at least until we are called upon to mention it by a leader in a council of some kind.

[janderich]

40 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Thanks that was well put.  I wonder at point we will be held responsible for leader's who are also mortal and prone to error?  Shall we not accept that we each individually can discern truth and light that the leaders are not quite picking up?

I think at times we may need to. But we have to be careful not to err which I think is very common.  Elder Christopherson talked about this once. Here is what he said:

Quote

William Shakespeare’s play The Life of King Henry V includes a nighttime scene in the camp of English soldiers at Agincourt just before their battle with the French army. In the dim light and partially disguised, King Henry wanders unrecognized among his soldiers. He talks with them, trying to gauge the morale of his badly outnumbered troops, and because they do not realize who he is, they are candid in their comments. In one exchange they philosophize about who bears responsibility for what happens to men in battle—the king or each individual soldier.

At one point King Henry declares, “Methinks I could not die any where so contented as in the king’s company; his cause being just.”

Michael Williams retorts, “That’s more than we know.”

His companion agrees, “Ay, or more than we should seek after; for we know enough, if we know we are the king’s subjects: if his cause be wrong, our obedience to the king wipes the crime of it out of us.”

Williams adds, “If the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make.”

Not surprisingly, King Henry disagrees. “Every subject’s duty is the king’s; but every subject’s soul is his own.”¹

Shakespeare does not attempt to resolve this debate in the play, and in one form or another it is a debate that continues down to our own time—who bears responsibility for what happens in our lives? (Free Forever to Act for Themselves, GC 2014)

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

SOunds like sound advice to me.  I don't see anything in the above to disagree with, per se, although I'd question the don't worry about it theme.  Worrying about it seems like a big part of what this life is.  If we don't then we end up ignoring many opportunity. 

Worrying about something about which you have no control just makes you crazy. 

[Mars]

some of us are just inclined to worry, mfbukowski.  i don't feel right unless something doesn't feel right.

[mfbukowski]

14 hours ago, Mars said:

some of us are just inclined to worry, mfbukowski.  i don't feel right unless something doesn't feel right.

Agreed, but it's altogether unfair how your avatar fits that round frame.  It just pops out at you and looks 3-D

I am jealous.  I want my avatar to be 3-D too.    ggggrrrrrrrrrr.    

[RevTestament]

On 2/23/2016 at 7:35 AM, janderich said:

I don't have all my books with me today as I'm away on vacation but there was an interesting experience that happened to the Willie Handcart Company. It was late in the season and the leaders knew it was late to start the trek and that it very well might snow. But they believed the Lord would protect them and they told the members of the trek that he would do so if they exercised sufficient faith.

Well as we know, the snows came and many died. When they got to the Salt Lake Valley Brigham Young heavily chastised the leaders because despite the knowledge they had previously been given about the late time of year they expected the Lord to work a miracle on their behalf. BY told them they should not have tempted the Lord in such a manner. 

Now of course there are other stories about an old man who got up in church and chastised the brothers in his quorum for talking bad about the handcart companies, but I feel like we must face these hard questions. What if I was one of the company and knew it was late in the year and I might die on the trek? Am I to go forward trusting my leader even when I know it is too late? I submit that such is not faith but folly. 

At some point we must gain our own light. We are not to forever to act as babies in this gospel following our leaders or parents blindly. As with the parable of the ten virgins, when the end comes it will be our own light that we will need, not another's. It does not matter what their title is and we cannot say, "but I followed Paul!" Or, "I followed Peter!" Such excuses will hold no weight. We all must light are own way. 

That being said, I am thankful for my leaders who help me when I don't know which way to go. They have taught me many truths and I look to them for guidance when the way is not clear. But when I know how to act then I will move forward trusting the light that is in me. 

I love this church for the truths of the gospel it restores. WhenI found this church, I felt like I finally understood the Bible. However, I don't feel this way about everything which has been said by all the GAs. Some of it I just do not believe. While I may not have the right to teach one of such beliefs as church doctrine, I do believe I certainly do have the right to interpret a scripture differently, esp if confirmed by the HS. After being drilled in this church to obey authority, it becomes difficult to accept BYs view that the pioneers should have stayed behind and let the leader go alone, although I personally believe to go expecting to be saved is"tempting" the Lord. So the question becomes when should we believe and when should we not? Consequently, I am not really a "follow the prophet kind of guy." I am a follow YHWH kind of guy as he is without fault. I look for inspiration in what leaders say, but not perfection.

On 2/23/2016 at 7:43 AM, stemelbow said:

Thanks that was well put.  I wonder at point we will be held responsible for leader's who are also mortal and prone to error?  Shall we not accept that we each individually can discern truth and light that the leaders are not quite picking up?

 I don't accept that we will ever be responsible for our leaders. We are ultimately responsible for ourselves. I am not going to be able to deflect blame onto an earthly leader, although that may make me less culpable. I think the church fears that everyone will want to be right. I am not sure quite where the acceptable medium is tho,  but I would like the church to accept that resonable people can disagree while still teaching what the leaders want taught. I do know the maxim that when "the prophet speaks the thinking is done" is not personally true for me. For me when a GA speaks the thinking has begun, and I dont believe that is being irreverent nor disrespectful.

[Maidservant]

On 2/22/2016 at 9:29 AM, stemelbow said:

 Scriptures speak of a day when people won't need God, where the success of mankind will seem to be so grand that we feel like we've moved past God.

 

Are you willing to elaborate on this?  Do you have some places in the scriptures that you have read that lead you to this understanding? Thanks :).

[stemelbow]

12 hours ago, Maidservant said:

 

Are you willing to elaborate on this?  Do you have some places in the scriptures that you have read that lead you to this understanding? Thanks :).

I had something like this in mind:

 

Quote

And it shall come to pass, that those who have dwindled in unbelief shall be smitten by the hand of the Gentiles.

 And the Gentiles are lifted up in the pride of their eyes, and have stumbled, because of the greatness of their stumbling block, that they have built up many churches; nevertheless, they put down the power and miracles of God, and preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor.

--2 Ne 26:19-20

It seems like there might be more explicit mention of it, but hopefully this explains what I had in mind.  If you want more or something else, let me know.