Kemara Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 5 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: No! you are the one misrepresenting me. I don't have to keep replying to that Bull$ Of course you don't have to keep replying to me, but you are choosing to do just that, so don't cry about it. I am not misrepresenting you, your problem is that I am not allowing you to shift the goals posts from your original claim, your problem is that I am holding you to your word, it is a shame that you cannot hold yourself to the same standard. 6 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Survey of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, Not the National Academies of Sciences, the NAS only accepts the best scientists. So now your are shifting the goal posts again, its not enough to be a scientist you have to be among the "best scientists". The data that you shared in your very first post, that data that you erroneously claimed supported your position, shows that 51% of scientists comprise persons who believe in a deity or a universal spirit/higher power. This same data shows that 41% of the scientists don't believe in either a deity or universal spirit/higher power. Do you deny that this is what the data shows? Your original claim that atheists and agnostics make up the majority of scientists in the NAS is false.
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 21, 2016 Author Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Kemara said: So now your are shifting the goal posts again, its not enough to be a scientist you have to be among the "best scientists". The data that you shared in your very first post, that data that you erroneously claimed supported your position, shows that 51% of scientists comprise persons who believe in a deity or a universal spirit/higher power. This same data shows that 41% of the scientists don't believe in either a deity or universal spirit/higher power. Do you deny that this is what the data shows? Your original claim that atheists and agnostics make up the majority of scientists in the NAS is false. My goodness! STOP ACCUSING ME OF THAT!!! It doesn't matter if they are NAS, MIT, or AAA scientists, most of them don't believe in a personal God!! I said exactly the same thing in my first post!. and I was simply replying to your claim that most NAS scientists are deists, because there is no data available for that! and Deists, Atheists, Agnostics and all other non-Theists are Atheists, certainly not Christians. Here is my First Post, people can judge for themselves. Quote I am glad our church says that Scientific evidence shows dinosaurs lived on this earth before man. I am glad our church published that because only 33% of scientists believe in a personal God. That means agnostics/atheists have a greater passion for Science than Christians, data shows Edited February 21, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
Kemara Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said: My goodness! STOP ACCUSING ME OF THAT!!! I absolutely guarantee that I will stop accusing you of that as soon as you actually stop doing it. When do you think that will be? 1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I was simply replying to your claim that most NAS scientists are deists, because there is no data available for that! Now what was the term you used...ummm...oh yeah, facepalm! Please show me where I said that most NAS scientists are deists. What I actually said was that a group comprising theists and deists were actually the majority and that your claim that atheists/agnostics were the majority is false. This is based on the data, it takes no extrapolation, leaps of logic, intellectual dishonesty or shifting of goal posts to arrive at that conclusion. 1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Deists, Atheists, Agnostics and all other non-Theists are Atheists, certainly not Christians. You were provided a link by thesometimesaint which shows clearly that deists are not atheists. I directed you to the link as well. You have ignored it so you can continue pushing your false position. Intellectual dishonesty again. A simple Google search would reveal this fact to you. You are shifting the goal post yet again. Initially your claim was that deists are atheists, now you are stepping away from that in a small degree by arguing that deists are "certainly not Christians". 1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Here is my First Post, people can judge for themselves. As I have been saying all along your first post clearly says that the comparison you are making is between atheists/agnostics and Christians. Not atheists, agnostics, deists and Spinoza as you are claiming now. The problem, as I have clearly demonstrated before, with appealing to any of your posts for a definitive answer on whether you were making a comparison between atheists/agnostics and Christians is that you shifted the goal posts so frequently. The title of your thread refers to religion, your first post refers to Christianity, then you referred to Christians, then theists, then Christians, then religion, then religion again, then belief in a personal God, then religion and you did all of this shifting on only the very first page, the following pages were not better! Is it any wonder that even you cant keep up with your own changing arguments. Also if you really were referring to Christians, and not theism or religion, then you have read into the data something that is not there. Nowhere does the data refer to Christians, it refers to those "Who believe in God". Do only Christians believe in God? Your entire premise is flawed! Contrast this to your reference to atheists/agnostics. Not until page 4 did you even use the word deist, up until then you were 100% consistent in referring specifically to atheist/agnostic. Now, you are trying to claim that deists are actually atheists! I am going to ask you again. Does the data show that a group comprising theists and deists make up the majority of NAS scientists and that a group comprising of atheists and agnostics is in the minority? Yes or no. Let me give you a bit of friendly advice...quit now. Every single turn you take you dig yourself a deeper hole. Quit now, the thread will be forgotten in a day, you wont have to live with the ignominy any longer than that. Edited February 21, 2016 by Kemara 3
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 21, 2016 Author Posted February 21, 2016 1 minute ago, Kemara said: As I have been saying all along your first post clearly says that the comparison you are making is between atheists/agnostics and Christians. Not atheists, agnostics, deists and Spinoza as you are claiming now. It is the same thing! they are all Atheists! They don't worship a personal God! They don't believe in a God of prayers! I won't bother reading your entire post, I am sick and tired! My eyes hurt.
The Nehor Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 On 2/20/2016 at 9:23 PM, TheSkepticChristian said: much better than Evangelicals and Catholics. Further proof we should burn all the heretics and enthrone our faith as the only one allowed to preserve scientific progress. Are you with me?
Russell C McGregor Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 16 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: It is the same thing! they are all Atheists! They don't worship a personal God! They don't believe in a God of prayers! I won't bother reading your entire post, I am sick and tired! My eyes hurt. Umm, Skeptic? YOU started this, ahem, "discussion!" And you are inventing your own definitions of terms! The definition of "atheists" isn't "They don't worship a personal God!" The definition of "atheists" isn't "They don't believe in a God of prayers!" Atheists aren't just those who don't believe in a particular kind of God! They are those who don't believe in any God at all! Deists "don't believe in a God of prayers!" But they believe in God! They believe that God created the universe and started it running, then left it to run down on its own! Don't you find it irritating when I argue by exclamation mark! So do we when you do it! 4
Kemara Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 12 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: It is the same thing! they are all Atheists! They don't worship a personal God! They don't believe in a God of prayers! As has been pointed out to you on a number of occasions deists are not atheists. Sorry, case closed on that one. 13 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I won't bother reading your entire post, I am sick and tired! My eyes hurt. Now you want me to believe you didn't read my entire post. Excuse me good sir but the quote of mine that you provided was quite a long way into my post....but lets pretend that you didn't read the whole thing. Why didn't you address all the points I raised before your decided not to read any further? Or did you only start reading my post half way down? Has this been your modus operandi during our entire discussion? If it has, then that explains an awful lot. I don't blame you for refusing to engage me, your arguments have been dismantled to the point that I feel like I am pulling the wings off a fly, that cant be much fun for the fly. I am going to ask you again anyway, for perhaps the 6th time, just in case your eyes have recovered. Does the data show that a group comprising theists and deists make up the majority of NAS scientists and that a group comprising of atheists and agnostics is in the minority? Yes or no. 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 22, 2016 Author Posted February 22, 2016 14 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said: Atheists aren't just those who don't believe in a particular kind of God! They are those who don't believe in any God at all! Deists "don't believe in a God of prayers!" But they believe in God! They believe that God created the universe and started it running, then left it to run down on its own! but both don't believe in a personal God, there is really no difference! 10 minutes ago, Kemara said: As has been pointed out to you on a number of occasions deists are not atheists. Sorry, case closed on that one. and it is totally irrelevant to my point! When I said religion, I am clearly talking about Theism vs non-theism or atheism, there is no difference. I don't really want to argue about definitions! It is just a red hearing because you don't like the fact that most scientists are non-theists.
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 22, 2016 Author Posted February 22, 2016 15 minutes ago, Kemara said: I am going to ask you again anyway, for perhaps the 6th time, just in case your eyes have recovered. Does the data show that a group comprising theists and deists make up the majority of NAS scientists and that a group comprising of atheists and agnostics is in the minority? Yes or no. LOL for the 1000th time. You are talking about the AAA scientists, not the NAS scientists!!! To answer your questions about the AAA scientists, YES! Happy? but how can you be happy about the fact that most of them are not Theist? So my original point remains true.
Russell C McGregor Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) 10 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: but both don't believe in a personal God, there is really no difference! There is no difference to you! But there is a real difference to them! Deists believe in an actual supernatural being! Atheists don't.! Deists believe God lost interest at some point! Atheists don't believe there was ever a God to begin with! You are trying to say that apples and onions are the same thing because they're both round! But you are wrong! Quote and it is totally irrelevant to my point! When I said religion, I am clearly talking about Theism vs non-theism or atheism, there is no difference. Oh, so now you're Parson Thwackum! Quote I don't really want to argue about definitions! It is just a red hearing because you don't like the fact that most scientists are non-theists. A red hearing? Is that done with pink ears? I don't care whether "most scientists" are theists or not! I care about accuracy! And now I'm getting tired of engaging in a battle of wits with an unarmed man! Edited February 22, 2016 by Russell C McGregor 2
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 22, 2016 Author Posted February 22, 2016 1 minute ago, Russell C McGregor said: Deists believe in an actual supernatural being! LOL no they don't. Deists believe in a higher power, not a supernatural power. Deists don't believe in magic. but like I said, I really don't want to argue about definitions, my point simply was that most scientists are not Theist! I know I should have said it differently because you guys simply point to irrelevancies.
Russell C McGregor Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 Just now, TheSkepticChristian said: LOL no they don't. Deists believe in a higher power, not a supernatural power. Higher than what? If it's higher than nature, then it's supernatural! Just now, TheSkepticChristian said: Deists don't believe in magic. Neither do Christians! Just now, TheSkepticChristian said: but like I said, I really don't want to argue about definitions, my point simply was that most scientists are not Theist! So what? Just now, TheSkepticChristian said: I know I should have said it differently because you guys simply point to irrelevancies. Like your argument!
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 22, 2016 Author Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Russell C McGregor said: If it's higher than nature, then it's supernatural! When they say "higher power" many physicists are talking about the God of Spinoza! Do you know what the God of Spinoza is? others mean String Theory. and some of them do mean a conscious intelligence that started the universe, which translates to aliens. The God of the physicists is totally different from the God of Christianity. 1 hour ago, Russell C McGregor said: Neither do Christians! Come on, what do you call creation ex nihilo? Trinity? omnipotence + omnipresence + all knowing? Even some LDS believe that God breaks the laws of nature. Edited February 22, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
Kemara Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said: LOL for the 1000th time. You are talking about the AAA scientists, not the NAS scientists!!! To answer your questions about the AAA scientists, YES! Happy? but how can you be happy about the fact that most of them are not Theist? So my original point remains true. Finally!!! You admit that the data shows that the majority of scientists are comprised of theists and deists and that atheists/agnostics are in the minority. I concede that I had the AAA and NAS scientists mixed up, my apologies, but with all your logical fallacies, intellectual dishonesty, disingenuousness and rapid goal post shifting I can hardly be blamed. I mean heck, not even you could keep up with yourself. However, the main point is that you finally admitted that the data you used does not support your position. The data you claimed showed cause for interest and passion in science does not support your position, in fact you now concede that it says the opposite. The data that you claimed showed that atheists/agnostics made up the majority of scientists actually shows something very different, it shows that, as a group, theists and deists are in the majority. Finally!!! Why on earth do I need to be happy or unhappy about the fact that scientists are atheists, agnostics, theists, deists, Spinoza, black, white, short, tall, male, female, young, old? Your original point does not remain true. Your original point referenced atheists and agnostics only. Edited February 22, 2016 by Kemara 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 22, 2016 Author Posted February 22, 2016 Just now, Kemara said: Finally!!! You admit that the data shows that the majority of scientists are comprised of theists and deists and that atheists/agnostics are in the minority. but what do you think they mean by "higher power"? Have you heard about the God of the physicists? The God of Spinoza? String Theory? Aliens? You simply point to irrelevancies, I been telling you that I am talking about Theism vs non-Theism. I know I shouldn't have used Atheism to save us like 3 pages.
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 22, 2016 Author Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Kemara said: The data that you claimed showed that atheists/agnostics made up the majority of scientists actually shows something very different, it shows that, as a group, theists and deists are in the majority. Finally!!! YOu know what! let's assume that 70% of US scientists believe in a Theistic God, and only 30% don't!. Because of the fact that only 4% of the US population is Atheist, a 30% still shows that Atheists are more interested in Science! PS The Deism of the physicists is closer to Atheism, not closer to Theism. Edited February 22, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
Russell C McGregor Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 6 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: YOu know what! let's assume that 70% of US scientists believe in a Theistic God, and only 30% don't!. Because of the fact that only 4% of the US population is Atheist, a 30% still shows that Atheists are more interested in Science! PS The Deism of the physicists is closer to Atheism, not closer to Theism. Sigh. Deism is a form of theism! Here is a reference for you! http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/deism ! How many atheists believe God created the universe? ! 1
Kemara Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said: You simply point to irrelevancies, I been telling you that I am talking about Theism vs non-Theism. And I have shown conclusively that you have not been talking about theism vs. non-theism. If you want to put it down to a misunderstanding or a miscommunication then okay, for the sake of your sanity and blood pressure, lets go with that.
Kemara Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said: YOu know what! let's assume that 70% of US scientists believe in a Theistic God, and only 30% don't!. Because of the fact that only 4% of the US population is Atheist, a 30% still shows that Atheists are more interested in Science! PS The Deism of the physicists is closer to Atheism, not closer to Theism. Okay for the sake of your sanity and blood pressure lets go with that. I am happy enough to let it go because you finally admitted that the data you provided does not support your position that the majority of scientists are atheist/agnostic. Edited February 22, 2016 by Kemara
Scott Lloyd Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 7 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said: Umm, Skeptic? YOU started this, ahem, "discussion!" And you are inventing your own definitions of terms! The definition of "atheists" isn't "They don't worship a personal God!" The definition of "atheists" isn't "They don't believe in a God of prayers!" Atheists aren't just those who don't believe in a particular kind of God! They are those who don't believe in any God at all! Deists "don't believe in a God of prayers!" But they believe in God! They believe that God created the universe and started it running, then left it to run down on its own! Don't you find it irritating when I argue by exclamation mark! So do we when you do it! At least he doesn't use several exclamation marks after a single sentence!!!!! (That is a Bill Reel characteristic.)
thesometimesaint Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 13 hours ago, longview said: 13 hours ago, longview said: 13 hours ago, longview said: 11 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: No! you are the one misrepresenting me. I don't have to keep replying to that Bull$ Survey of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, Not the National Academies of Sciences, the NAS only accepts the best of the best scientists. Do not ignore the many miracles that occurred in the American Revolution. Treaty of Tripoli Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;... .
Kemara Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 7 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said: And now I'm getting tired of engaging in a battle of wits with an unarmed man! Russell I am going to confess something. One day I am going to steal that line and claim it as my own. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but one day.
Gray Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) 14 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: but both don't believe in a personal God, there is really no difference! and it is totally irrelevant to my point! When I said religion, I am clearly talking about Theism vs non-theism or atheism, there is no difference. I don't really want to argue about definitions! It is just a red hearing because you don't like the fact that most scientists are non-theists. There's a pretty clear difference between deism and atheism. Deism is one of many forms of theism. Edited February 22, 2016 by Gray
longview Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 On 2/21/2016 at 9:25 AM, Monster said: That is common narrative in the church, but lacks any ability to substantiate it. 22 hours ago, longview said: Do not ignore the many miracles that occurred in the American Revolution. 9 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: Treaty of Tripoli Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;... . Only if you want to believe in moslem propaganda. This article was actually the text of an obscure letter between moslem potentates - - - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli As General William Eaton informed newly appointed Secretary of State John Marshall in 1800, "It is a maxim of the Barbary States, that 'The Christians who would be on good terms with them must fight well or pay well. The official treaty was in Arabic text, and a translated version by Consul-General Barlow was ratified by the United States on June 10, 1797. Article 11 of the treaty was said to have not been part of the original Arabic version of the treaty; in its place is a letter from the Dey of Algiers to the Pasha of Tripoli. However, it is the English text which was ratified by Congress. According to Frank Lambert, Professor of History at Purdue University, the assurances in Article 11 were "intended to allay the fears of the Muslim state by insisting that religion would not govern how the treaty was interpreted and enforced. John Adams and the Senate made clear that the pact was between two sovereign states, not between two religious powers." Lambert writes, "By their actions, the Founding Fathers made clear that their primary concern was religious freedom, not the advancement of a state religion. Individuals, not the government, would define religious faith and practice in the United States. Thus the Founders ensured that in no official sense would America be a Christian Republic. Ten years after the Constitutional Convention ended its work, the country assured the world that the United States was a secular state, and that its negotiations would adhere to the rule of law, not the dictates of the Christian faith. The assurances were contained in the Treaty of Tripoli of 1797 and were intended to allay the fears of the Muslim state by insisting that religion would not govern how the treaty was interpreted and enforced. John Adams and the Senate made clear that the pact was between two sovereign states, not between two religious powers." A second treaty, the Treaty of Peace and Amity signed on July 4, 1805, superseded the 1796 treaty. The 1805 treaty did not contain the phrase "not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." After comparing the United States' version by Barlow with the Arabic and the Italian version, Miller continues by claiming that: The Arabic text which is between Articles 10 and 12 is in form a letter, crude and flamboyant and withal quite unimportant, from the Dey of Algiers to the Pasha of Tripoli. How that script came to be written and to be regarded, as in the Barlow translation, as Article 11 of the treaty as there written, is a mystery and seemingly must remain so. Nothing in the diplomatic correspondence of the time throws any light whatever on the point.
thesometimesaint Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814 Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions any more than our opinions in physics or geometry.” It concludes that “all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge or affect their civil capacities.” Thomas Jefferson-, Virginia Act for Establishment
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