Does religion slow down scientific progress?

[longview]

23 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

Common Law is said to be derived from the Anglo-Saxon tradition which protected their society from despotic rulers by dispersing responsibilities among groups and subgroups.  They believed their rights came from natural laws given by divine dispensation.  There was a similar situation with the ancient Israelites in the early part of the Reign of the Judges.  They had provisions for freeing slaves (economic bondage) at certain times.

The Founders also referenced Cicero's discourses on building a society on principles of Natural Law and "rules of right conduct."  Cicero wrote:  "The animal which we call man, endowed with foresight and quick intelligence, complex, keen, possessing memory, full of reason and prudence, has been given a certain distinguished status by the Supreme God who created him; - - - And since right reason is Law, we must believe that men have Law also in common with the gods. - - - but as a matter of fact they do obey this celestial system, the divine mind, and the God of Transcendent power."  (William Ebenstein, Great Political Thinkers, pp 122-23)

To quote a French scholar:  " Jefferson's great ambition at that time [1776] was to promote a neaissance of Anglo-Saxon primitive institutions on the new continent.  Thus presented, the American Revolution was nothing but the reclamation of the Anglo-Saxon birthright of which the colonists had been deprived by a 'long trend of abuses.' - - -"  (Gilbert Chinard, Thomas Jefferson: The Apostle of Americanism, pp 86-7)

I agree with Jefferson that the "interpretation of common law" is NOT dependent on a single denomination.  That was in line with his assurance that the Constitution would not allow the "establishment of a specific denomination" as a controlling authority.  Which our current day radicals have abused to falsely claim that religion must be kept out of the public square.  On the contrary he supported full expression of freedom of religion anywhere, even in schools, the legislature, etc.

On 2/22/2016 at 10:05 AM, thesometimesaint said:

Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions any more than our opinions in physics or geometry.” It concludes that “all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge or affect their civil capacities.”

Thomas Jefferson-, Virginia Act for Establishment

Eminently reasonable.  Again no single denomination will have preference or enforcement power.  For you to imply that America does not have a RICH tradition/foundation of Christianity (non-denominational) is very misleading and deceptive.  Alexis de Tocqueville wrote in his famous book:  "Democracy in America" [circa 1831] of the amazing interplay between the faith and zeal of the people with the institutions of American society.

[thesometimesaint]

14 minutes ago, longview said:

Common Law is said to be derived from the Anglo-Saxon tradition which protected their society from despotic rulers by dispersing responsibilities among groups and subgroups.  They believed their rights came from natural laws given by divine dispensation.  There was a similar situation with the ancient Israelites in the early part of the Reign of the Judges.  They had provisions for freeing slaves (economic bondage) at certain times.

The Founders also referenced Cicero's discourses on building a society on principles of Natural Law and "rules of right conduct."  Cicero wrote:  "The animal which we call man, endowed with foresight and quick intelligence, complex, keen, possessing memory, full of reason and prudence, has been given a certain distinguished status by the Supreme God who created him; - - - And since right reason is Law, we must believe that men have Law also in common with the gods. - - - but as a matter of fact they do obey this celestial system, the divine mind, and the God of Transcendent power."  (William Ebenstein, Great Political Thinkers, pp 122-23)

To quote a French scholar:  " Jefferson's great ambition at that time [1776] was to promote a neaissance of Anglo-Saxon primitive institutions on the new continent.  Thus presented, the American Revolution was nothing but the reclamation of the Anglo-Saxon birthright of which the colonists had been deprived by a 'long trend of abuses.' - - -"  (Gilbert Chinard, Thomas Jefferson: The Apostle of Americanism, pp 86-7)

I agree with Jefferson that the "interpretation of common law" is NOT dependent on a single denomination.  That was in line with his assurance that the Constitution would not allow the "establishment of a specific denomination" as a controlling authority.  Which our current day radicals have abused to falsely claim that religion must be kept out of the public square.  On the contrary he supported full expression of freedom of religion anywhere, even in schools, the legislature, etc.

Eminently reasonable.  Again no single denomination will have preference or enforcement power.  For you to imply that America does not have a RICH tradition/foundation of Christianity (non-denominational) is very misleading and deceptive.  Alexis de Tocqueville wrote in his famous book:  "Democracy in America" [circa 1831] of the amazing interplay between the faith and zeal of the people with the institutions of American society.

Let's look at the 10 Commandments. Arguably a Christian belief.

1. You shall have no other gods beforeme. The US Constitution specifically prohibits any religious test for public office or trust.

2. You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. We have graven images all over the place, and the government can't say boo about you worshiping, or not worshiping, any of them.

3.  You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God. Again there is no law in the US Constitution prohibiting you from doing that.

4. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Which one Jewish Sabbath, Muslim Sabbath, Seventh Day Adventist Sabbath. Mormon Sabbath? 

5. Honor your father and your mother. A good idea but not required under US Constitution.

6.  You shall not murder. I know of no civil society that condones murder by its own citizens.

7. You shall not commit adultery. Not a good idea, but not prohibited under US Constitution.

8. You shall not steal. Punishable by law in every civil society that I know of.

9. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. Applicable only in a court of law.

10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor. Capitalism is the very essence of covetousness. 

 

[TheSkepticChristian]

On 2/22/2016 at 8:08 AM, Gray said:

There's a pretty clear difference between deism and atheism. Deism is one of many forms of theism. 

Deism is not theism, and the God of the physicists is closer to Atheism. 

[USU78]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

Let's look at the 10 Commandments. Arguably a Christian belief.

1. You shall have no other gods beforeme. The US Constitution specifically prohibits any religious test for public office or trust.

2. You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. We have graven images all over the place, and the government can't say boo about you worshiping, or not worshiping, any of them.

3.  You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God. Again there is no law in the US Constitution prohibiting you from doing that.

4. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Which one Jewish Sabbath, Muslim Sabbath, Seventh Day Adventist Sabbath. Mormon Sabbath? 

5. Honor your father and your mother. A good idea but not required under US Constitution.

6.  You shall not murder. I know of no civil society that condones murder by its own citizens.

7. You shall not commit adultery. Not a good idea, but not prohibited under US Constitution.

8. You shall not steal. Punishable by law in every civil society that I know of.

9. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. Applicable only in a court of law.

10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor. Capitalism is the very essence of covetousness. 

 

To claim that the Common Law is not derived from Judeo-Christian, as well as ancient Anglo-Saxon, Roman and Norman legal traditions, is to speak from gross ignorance.  Jefferson and the other founders studied Blackstone's Commentaries more than any other source in coming up with their joint theory of law and government, and in Volume I, Section 2, pp 38-62, Of the Nature of Laws in General, Blackstone commences with cosmological laws, referencing the Tanakh's description of Creation, then, after proceeding through the laws of biological nature, etc, comes to Man, who, says Blackstone, "must necessarily be subject to the laws of his creator, for he is entirely a dependent being."

Just because you cannot find the Ten Commandments in the law as understood by you has little to no bearing on the true bases of Anglo-American law.  G-d and the Bible are at the core of everything.  You just have to know how and where to look.

[USU78]

12 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Deism is not theism, and the God of the physicists is closer to Atheism. 

Source, please, for the notion that deism isn't a subset of theism?

[Sleeper Cell]

43 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Deism is not theism, and the God of the physicists is closer to Atheism. 

I’ve heard of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  I’ve never heard of the “God of the physicists.”  But what do I know?  I’m just a physicist.  

[TheSkepticChristian]

32 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Source, please, for the notion that deism isn't a subset of theism?

I don't know it if it subset, but the God of prayers and miracles is not the God of the deists. 

Deism - "a movement or system of thought advocating natural religion, emphasizing morality, and in the 18th century denying the interference of the Creator with the laws of the universe"

Deism - "Belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe. The term is used chiefly of an intellectual movement of the 17th and 18th centuries that accepted the existence of a creator on the basis of reason but rejected belief in a supernatural deity who interacts with humankind"

and certainly the God of the physicists is far far from Theism. 

[Gray]

1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Deism is not theism, and the God of the physicists is closer to Atheism. 

Deism is the belief in a God who no longer intervenes. That's not remotely like Atheism, as atheism is a rejection of all gods, including the Deistic God. 

I don't know that deism is the default for physicists who reject a personal God. There is also pantheism. But I doubt most would choose a specific label.

[TheSkepticChristian]

27 minutes ago, Gray said:

Deism is the belief in a God who no longer intervenes. 

that is probably what the deists of the 19th century believed. Today, most deist believe that something (perhaps a mind, an alien, or a force) caused the big bang. 

 

Edited February 23, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[thesometimesaint]

2 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Deism is not theism, and the God of the physicists is closer to Atheism. 

Deism is a form of Theism. Probably the mildest, but still Theism.

[thesometimesaint]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

To claim that the Common Law is not derived from Judeo-Christian, as well as ancient Anglo-Saxon, Roman and Norman legal traditions, is to speak from gross ignorance.  Jefferson and the other founders studied Blackstone's Commentaries more than any other source in coming up with their joint theory of law and government, and in Volume I, Section 2, pp 38-62, Of the Nature of Laws in General, Blackstone commences with cosmological laws, referencing the Tanakh's description of Creation, then, after proceeding through the laws of biological nature, etc, comes to Man, who, says Blackstone, "must necessarily be subject to the laws of his creator, for he is entirely a dependent being."

Just because you cannot find the Ten Commandments in the law as understood by you has little to no bearing on the true bases of Anglo-American law.  G-d and the Bible are at the core of everything.  You just have to know how and where to look.

The US doesn't recognize or use English Common Law.

[Gray]

8 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

that is probably what the deists of the 19th century believed. Today, most deist believe that something (perhaps a mind, an alien, or a force) caused the big bang. 

 

Deism isn't quite so nebulous as that. But if someone believes in God (whatever attributes they assign to God - whether that's an alien being or a force or the universe or an intelligence or a mountain), by definition they are not an atheist. 

 

[TheSkepticChristian]

6 minutes ago, Gray said:

Deism isn't quite so nebulous as that. But if someone believes in God (whatever attributes they assign to God - whether that's an alien being or a force or the universe or an intelligence or a mountain), by definition they are not an atheist. 

 

 

16 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Deism is a form of Theism. Probably the mildest, but still Theism.

Okay, Fine! but the God of the Physicists is not Theism. The God of Spinoza is far far from Theism. 

[Gray]

43 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

 

Okay, Fine! but the God of the Physicists is not Theism. The God of Spinoza is far far from Theism. 

Spinoza was a pantheist. Pantheism is probably the furthest point on the scale from atheism that is possible. Granted it's not like more popular forms of theism, but it's still a form of theism. Hence the term "pantheism."

I feel like the topic you're really wanting to discuss is whether or not scientists accept a personal god who is actively intervening in the world. It's true that pantheism and deism reject that kind of personal God, but that does not make those belief systems identical or equivalent to atheism. 

Edited February 23, 2016 by Gray

[USU78]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

The US doesn't recognize or use English Common Law.

Cfr

[SmileyMcGee]

On 2/19/2016 at 11:57 AM, TheSkepticChristian said:

I am not saying that all religion slows Scientific progress. For example, a high percentage of American Jews become scientists and Nobel prize winners. I can't say the same for our Christianity religion. 

Have you said anything about the slowing of science by religion? All I've seen is data describing the religious belief (or lack thereof) of the scientific community. How could you even show the inhibiting effect of religion on science? What metrics and data would you use? 

[Kemara]

1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Okay, Fine! but the God of the Physicists is not Theism. The God of Spinoza is far far from Theism. 

And yet the group consisting of theist and deist scientists still outnumbers the amount of atheist and agnostic scientists, by a significant margin...according to the data you provided. All the spin doctoring in the world is not going to change the fact that atheists and agnostics are in the minority.

[TheSkepticChristian]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Spinoza was a pantheist. Pantheism is probably the furthest point on the scale from atheism that is possible. G

The God of Spinoza is not a conscious God. 

[consiglieri]

I suppose by this time somebody has brought up Galileo.

I see no further argument on the subject as even necessary.

[TheSkepticChristian]

11 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

I suppose by this time somebody has brought up Galileo.

I see no further argument on the subject as even necessary.

Our first Galileo was Aristotle! He lived about 3000 years before Galileo! Aristotle was not prayer religious.

Edited February 24, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[TheSkepticChristian]

the question is

 

[Kemara]

27 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

the question is

Shifting the goal posts yet again.

 

[TheSkepticChristian]

2 hours ago, Kemara said:

Shifting the goal posts yet again.

 

Prayer religion Theism vs non-Theism

[volgadon]

1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Prayer religion Theism vs non-Theism

Would you mind assembling this interesting collection of nouns into a coherent sentence?

[Jim Stiles]

Former LDS member, Kip Thorne said that it is possible to be a very good physicist and religious,  He also said that it is possible to be a very good physicist and be an atheist.