halconero Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Ah, so Jesus preached to the good spirits in prison who were disobedient in the days of Noah. Thanks for clarifying.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 No, he preached to the bad side, it's a judgment thing. They are condemned.
halconero Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Oh. So he preached condemnation to the unconscious spirits in prison?
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 Ya.Judging them. No partying going on down in Hades.
halconero Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Where does it say he judged them? My bible says he preached to them.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 Commending them doesn't make sense.
The Nehor Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 1 hour ago, savedwheat said: If other passages say people are asleep then they are asleep. Period. Unless those passages are the figurative ones. What if they are both figurative and the afterlife is actually being reincarnated as a sponge? Oh noes! 1
halconero Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 2 minutes ago, savedwheat said: They are never going to repent. Says who?
The Nehor Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 1 hour ago, savedwheat said: Your scriptures conflict with the Bible that salvation, that is, initial, which can never be lost, is a once for all. A concept utterly foreign to the early Christians and the apostles and invented after the fact by uninspired men wresting the scriptures. If the people who knew the apostles who taught this stuff disagree with you it is a pretty good bet that is not what they were teaching. Sit down and read the writings of the early Christians and you will find they disagreed with you. Well, mostly, some of the gnostic sects would have agreed with you. Are you a gnostic?
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 that everyone will die and be judged (Heb.9:27) and that each person’s eternal destiny, either reward or condemnation, will be based on what was done in this life (Matt.7:21–23;13:36–43; John5:28–29). Jesus, moreover, taught that each human’s destiny is fixed at death; for example, in His story of Lazarus, who was eternally in paradise, and the rich man, who was eternally in torment (Luke16:19–31). Finally, the description of the great white throne judgment in Revelation20:11–15 unquestionably indicates that our eternal destiny is based on our earthly life.
halconero Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Shhhhhh, Nehor. I was enjoying the interplay and now you've ruined it.
The Nehor Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 51 minutes ago, savedwheat said: You had your entire life to decide. That's why I still have never met anyone past the age of 40 who gave their life to Christ. That is the biggest reach I have ever seen sun, moon, stars now multiple different heavens? There is one New City and rewards are done away with and the saved are all pillars of the New City. Period. It would seem cold hearted to add different heavens based on works to get there and if your works aren't good enough you drop down even all the way to Hell. Whereas a loving God always keeps His elect and never lets them go. That is love. It is true what they say. Abhorrent people have abhorrent gods and stupid people have stupid gods. I guess that is what happens when you create God in your own image. 1
halconero Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 3 minutes ago, savedwheat said: that everyone will die and be judged (Heb.9:27) and that each person’s eternal destiny, either reward or condemnation, will be based on what was done in this life (Matt.7:21–23;13:36–43; John5:28–29). Jesus, moreover, taught that each human’s destiny is fixed at death; for example, in His story of Lazarus, who was eternally in paradise, and the rich man, who was eternally in torment (Luke16:19–31). Finally, the description of the great white throne judgment in Revelation20:11–15 unquestionably indicates that our eternal destiny is based on our earthly life. Where we're judged on our works right?
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 Just now, halconero said: Where we're judged on our works right? In other words no works can satisfy. So your faith is what matters in the correct Jesus.
halconero Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 So why are there works being used to judge out of the Book of Life?
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 Shows no person can be saved by works.
The Nehor Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 1 hour ago, savedwheat said: Your scriptures conflict with the Bible that salvation, that is, initial, which can never be lost, is a once for all. Then Jesus was an utter jerk. He never taught this in any recorded scripture. When the rich man came to him and asked how he could have eternal life Jesus could have told him to accept him as his savior and he would be saved. Instead he damned the poor idiot by telling him to perform works by selling all he had and giving it to the poor and following Jesus. When he gave the Sermon on the Mount he did not teach once saved, always saved. He demanded his followers possess certain attributes. Why be so evasive? When Jesus gave the parable of the sheep and the goats he again deceived his followers telling them that their position in the afterlife would be determined by their works on earth. Jesus sure does not want anyone to be saved if you are right. Then we can turn to the epistles. Paul again terrifies his converts. He admits they accepted the Savior but then when he thinks they got off track later he sends letters correcting them and warning them to change their ways. What a cold-hearted writer he was. These people were saved when they were converted and now he has the cheek to tell them to change their ways. They were saved once, clearly they were always saved. In the Book of Revelations John writes to the seven churches and tells the righteous among them to endure so they can be saved. Again, look at that fearmongering. These people were clearly saved. Why terrify the poor people if they were saved forever? So you can condemn the Savior and the apostles as abominable men who did not even th each their own doctrine or admit that your theology is almost entirely absent from early Christianity except for a few heretic sects you do not want to be associated with. And that later it was created by the Protestants with no historical basis coming entirely from a radical interpretation of some of Paul's writings that neither Paul nor his followers accepted and who would stare at you like you were crazy if you tried to convince them they did teach it.
halconero Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 7 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Shows no person can be saved by works. Where does it say that in Revelations?
The Nehor Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 17 minutes ago, savedwheat said: that everyone will die and be judged (Heb.9:27) and that each person’s eternal destiny, either reward or condemnation, will be based on what was done in this life (Matt.7:21–23;13:36–43; John5:28–29). Jesus, moreover, taught that each human’s destiny is fixed at death; for example, in His story of Lazarus, who was eternally in paradise, and the rich man, who was eternally in torment (Luke16:19–31). Finally, the description of the great white throne judgment in Revelation20:11–15 unquestionably indicates that our eternal destiny is based on our earthly life. Why did he not teach that Lazarus accepted him as his savior and the rich man did not? Instead he focused on their state in life and how the rich man ignored Lazarus.......almost as if he was condemning the rich man's works..........why does Jesus spend all his time flirting with heresy?
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 Just now, The Nehor said: Then Jesus was an utter jerk. He never taught this in any recorded scripture. When the rich man came to him and asked how he could have eternal life Jesus could have told him to accept him as his savior and he would be saved. Instead he damned the poor idiot by telling him to perform works by selling all he had and giving it to the poor and following Jesus. When he gave the Sermon on the Mount he did not teach once saved, always saved. He demanded his followers possess certain attributes. Why be so evasive? When Jesus gave the parable of the sheep and the goats he again deceived his followers telling them that their position in the afterlife would be determined by their works on earth. Jesus sure does not want anyone to be saved if you are right. Then we can turn to the epistles. Paul again terrifies his converts. He admits they accepted the Savior but then when he thinks they got off track later he sends letters correcting them and warning them to change their ways. What a cold-hearted writer he was. These people were saved when they were converted and now he has the cheek to tell them to change their ways. They were saved once, clearly they were always saved. In the Book of Revelations John writes to the seven churches and tells the righteous among them to endure so they can be saved. Again, look at that fearmongering. These people were clearly saved. Why terrify the poor people if they were saved forever? So you can condemn the Savior and the apostles as abominable men who did not even th each their own doctrine or admit that your theology is almost entirely absent from early Christianity except for a few heretic sects you do not want to be associated with. And that later it was created by the Protestants with no historical basis coming entirely from a radical interpretation of some of Paul's writings that neither Paul nor his followers accepted and who would stare at you like you were crazy if you tried to convince them they did teach it. This was not for salvation but to reign in the kingdom. Good conduct once saved is different than works to be saved. Sheep and the goats are the good and bad nations. Changing your ways is a good thing. 7 churches by definition are saved, but they had things to overcome. Saved forever yes! John says those who born-again "they shall ne ever perish" (10.28). Works are unto rewards not to receive eternal life.
The Nehor Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 8 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Shows no person can be saved by works. LDS do not claim anyone is saved by works. It is by the grace of Christ we are saved. He sets the terms for how that grace can be accessed and spends most of the gospels telling us what kind of people he expects us to be. Even then our works do not save us. They are just what the Savior demands. In any case you believe you must accept the Savior to be saved which is a work so I am not sure why you are blathering about this endlessly. The Savior spoke harshly against hypocrisy. 1
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 3 minutes ago, The Nehor said: LDS do not claim anyone is saved by works. It is by the grace of Christ we are saved. He sets the terms for how that grace can be accessed and spends most of the gospels telling us what kind of people he expects us to be. Even then our works do not save us. They are just what the Savior demands. In any case you believe you must accept the Savior to be saved which is a work so I am not sure why you are blathering about this endlessly. The Savior spoke harshly against hypocrisy. Faith and works are contrasted. So having faith in Jesus is not a work. But in Mormonism salvation is by works because depending on you works you will go to different heavens. And you non-OSAS so you get saved as a Mormon and then can still go to Hell as an apostate Mormon. Such is not possible in Christianity.
The Nehor Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) 24 minutes ago, savedwheat said: This was not for salvation but to reign in the kingdom. Good conduct once saved is different than works to be saved. Sheep and the goats are the good and bad nations. Changing your ways is a good thing. 7 churches by definition are saved, but they had things to overcome. Saved forever yes! John says those who born-again "they shall ne ever perish" (10.28). Works are unto rewards not to receive eternal life. So there is a difference between salvation and where you reign in the kingdom of God based on works. Some sort of degrees of glory system? And for the sheep and the goats quite bluntly you are absolutely wrong. The parable says he will gather the nations and separate put the people into sheep and goats implying there is a mixture in each nation. If he were judging nations as a whole he would have said gathered the nations and judged which nations were sheep and which were goats. And he is definitely demanding a certain kind of conduct to be a sheep. That is an idiotic reading of the letter to the Seven Churches. Jesus warned them to hold fast or they could lose their crowns, have their lamp removed, that they have forsaken their first love, and other warning to hold fast or be cast out. Why no comforting mentions of how if they are once saved they are always saved? Seems like an ideal time for it. Since it seems flatly contradicted I think we can assume neither Jesus or John believed in the doctrine Luther and the rest would invent much later. Oh, and if you read the verses around it John 10:28 applies to those who believe the words of Jesus AND follow him. I think you missed the second part there. Edited January 24, 2016 by The Nehor
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