VideoGameJunkie Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Saved wheat have you only ever read the Bible? What religion are you?
Zakuska Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 I wonder how lazarus was "awake" without his body? Luke 16 19 ¶There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetimereceivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulffixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and theprophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. 1
Zakuska Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Just now, savedwheat said: Sorry I don't see that. You're misreading it. It agree with John 10.28 "they shall never perish". And yet even Peter is dead and buried.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 1 minute ago, Zakuska said: I wonder how lazarus was "awake" without his body? Luke 16 19 ¶There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetimereceivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulffixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and theprophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Temporary portrayal of the good side and bad side of Hades to wait resurrection from.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 Just now, Zakuska said: And yet even Peter is dead and buried. Because he was saved when he believed in Jesus, initial salvation, new birth, new creation, eternal life. Soul sleep is just waiting for resurrection in 1 Thess. 4.14-18).
Zakuska Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 8 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Nothing in the Bible about salvation after you die. You're asleep get resurrected judged. You won't repent if you rejected Jesus before you died. If you are "asleep" before you get ressurected and judged. Why was lazarus and the rich man conversing with the Lord?
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 The Lazarus scene was just to show there were these two realms, good side of Hades and bad side. The good side get resurrected 1000 years before the bad side.
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 4 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Because he was saved when he believed in Jesus, initial salvation, new birth, new creation, eternal life. Soul sleep is just waiting for resurrection in 1 Thess. 4.14-18). You really need to read the other scriptures besides just the Bible. You're missing out on important doctrine.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 Your scriptures conflict with the Bible that salvation, that is, initial, which can never be lost, is a once for all.
Zakuska Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) Just now, savedwheat said: Your scriptures conflict with the Bible that salvation, that is, initial, which can never be lost, is a once for all. Contradicts the parable of the sower sorry. 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. Edited January 24, 2016 by Zakuska
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) 1 minute ago, Zakuska said: Contradicts the parable of the sower sorry. Not at all. All sowing remained saved. Just different kinds of Christians from carnal to spiritual. Edited January 24, 2016 by savedwheat
Zakuska Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) Just now, savedwheat said: Not at all. All sowing remained saved. Just different kinds of Christians from carnal to spiritual. That's not what the parable says. The only "saved believers" are those who bare fruit (aja good works) for the Lord. 14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares andriches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit toperfection. 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honestand good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forthfruit with patience. Edited January 24, 2016 by Zakuska
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 The Parable of Sowing Before proceeding to discuss this particular parable, it might be well to indicate that the parables to be found in this chapter may be divided into several parts: (1) The parable of sowing heads up all the parables. (2) The parable of the wheat and the tares is in contrast to the parable of the net. As in seeds with their good wheat and bad tares, so in fishes there are both good and bad. (3) The parable of the mustard seed is parallel with the parable of the leaven, except that the mustard seed speaks of the external while the leaven speaks of the internal. (4)The parable of the treasure runs parallel with the parable of the pearl. The treasure signifies the outside whereas the pearl signifies the inside. Contrast is not for repetition but for emphasis. (5) If the passage on things old and new is also considered a parable, it compares with the first one, the parable of sowing. v.3 This parable does not begin with “The kingdom of heaven is like” because the work of sowing is done by the Lord himself. The outward sphere (or domain) of the kingdom of heaven does not appear until the Lord is rejected and the disciples begin to labor; so that this parable applies exclusively to the result of the work of our Lord Jesus on earth. The sowing occurs before “the kingdom of heaven is likened unto. . .” According to strict interpretation, this is the only possible explanation. In 13.24-25 there are two classes of men mentioned: the first man is singular, which points to the Son of man; the second in the original is plural, and these men are the servants who sleep. The first man—the Son of man—does His work alone. Nobody shares in His labor. How many kinds of seeds are there? Only one kind. But how about the soil? There are four different types. What is the seed? The word of the kingdom. What is the soil? The human heart. And the sower is Jesus Christ. “Went forth to sow”—If this is not the beginning of a new dispensation, then it must be the preparation for the new dispensation. In the Old Testament, God was seen as the One who planted. The Old Testament used the vine to represent the children of Israel. A vine is planted in a vineyard. Out of all the nations, God chose Israel and planted her in the vineyard. The root of a vine constantly draws water from the earth. Hence the vine typifies God’s earthly people. The first evidence concerning Canaan brought back to the children of Israel was a branch with one cluster of grapes from the valley of Eshcol. The blessing Israel enjoyed was earthly in nature. Now although the Old Testament does mention the fig tree, it is not employed to represent the children of Israel. Instead it uses the vine to typify them. In the New Testament, however, the fig tree is used to represent the children of Israel. In Luke 13.6, for example, a fig tree is planted in a vineyard. Due to their unfaithfulness, God is going to set them aside temporarily from the place of election. The fig tree is to be watched for three years to see if it will bear fruit. The fig tree is therefore a type of temporary Israel, whereas the vine is a type of permanent Israel. Yet here in this parable there is not found the type either of permanent or temporary Israel. What is found instead is the sowing of the seed of wheat. And when it ripens it dries up and so is harvested. This is none other than a type or picture of Christians. vv.4,19 “By the way side”—The field is the world. The way side is that which borders the field, hence this description speaks of the air (that which borders the entire earth)—the habitation of evil spirits. “By the way side” typifies those who are near to evil spirits such as the necromancers, the idol worshipers, the demon-possessed, and the morally corrupt. These people will not accept the word of the kingdom of heaven. “Birds” stand for the evil one, even Satan. The word is preached to the heart, so Satan tries to blind the minds of the unbelieving so that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ should not dawn upon them (see 2 Cor. 4.4). These people do not understand because their “heart is waxed gross” and “their eyes they have closed” (these words in 13.15 point to the Jews who reject Christ). This class of people are not saved. vv.5,6,20,21 “Upon the rocky places”—Underneath is rock and above is a thin layer of soil. The seeds spring up quickly. This class of people shows the best appearance. After hearing the word, they respond most emotionally (cf. John 2.23-25). Revivalists should beware the rocky places and immediate sproutings. They should be afraid of people who cry too readily and are emotionally stirred too easily. They should not be satisfied simply with large numbers of people. (Many throng the Lord Jesus, but He feels nothing. But when one touches Him, immediately He senses power flowing out.) Those who are easily stirred emotionally exhibit instant enthusiasm; yet alas, there is no root and no life. They are alienated from the life of God because they have no way to draw nourishment. After revival meetings, many who seem to be stirred up fade quickly away. Why? because their stony hearts are not removed (see Ezek. 36.26). Soon they shall be withered. The sun represents tribulation or persecution. Sunlight is originally designed to help plant life to grow. Likewise, tribulation and persecution help the life of true believers to grow too. vv.7,22 “Upon the thorns”—This class of people receives the word that they hear and thus have life. Unfortunately, they cannot later bear any fruit because they are choked. God’s word needs sowing, but the thorns require no sowing. Believers do not bear fruit nor do they understand the Bible because their hearts are choked with the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches. Care seems to be so natural, yet the Lord says it ought not occupy our heart. Blessed are the poor in spirit. The poor in spirit are the poor in heart, that is to say, it is a heart that is not entangled by the care of this world and the deceitfulness of riches. The Lord requires us to bear fruit as well as to have life. vv.8,23 “Upon the good ground”—That is, upon a good heart, one that obeys God’s will. “Understandeth” means to understand in the spirit. For fruit bearing, more than faith is required. A hundredfold is perfect; sixty passes the half way mark; thirty is below half; but any below thirty is insignificant. Though the heart is good, there may yet be hindrance.
Bobbieaware Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 38 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Whereas the Bible teaches once you die that's it, decision is final, because you are asleep and wait to get resurrected. You can't repent if you are asleep. You're asleep until resurrected. So nonetheless you have people going to heaven who don't believe in Christ irrespective if you think they will still end up believing. It's a fallacy built on thinking there are multiple heavens based on the fact we have a moon, sun and stars. That is the farthest stretch I have ever seen. What a terrible, cold-hearted and unmerciful way for a supposedly perfectly loving God to rule and reign in his kingdom. It sounds like something an earthly despot would dream up, only worse: No mercy, no second chances, and too bad if you think he's callous, capricious and unfair. You will win few if any converts to your cause around here because most of us have believed in a God of true justice, mercy, compassion and perfect love for too long to jsuddenly jump ship into a religion with a sovereign who acts more like a soulless, unfeeling machine than even a halfway decent earthly father. And it was the apostle Paul who when speaking of the resurrection said, "there is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars. And as one star differs from another star in glory (brightness), so also is the resurrection of the dead." Doesn't sound like such a great leap of logic to me. In fact, it makes perfect sense. 1
Zakuska Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) vv.8,23 “Upon the good ground”—That is, upon a good heart, one that obeys God’s will. “Understandeth” means to understand in the spirit. For fruit bearing, more than faith is required. A hundredfold is perfect; sixty passes the half way mark; thirty is below half; but any below thirty is insignificant. Though the heart is good, there may yet be hindrance. Yep theres the 3 degrees of glory. Telestial Terestrial Celestial All the others above they do "believe" and are "saved" but tgey fall from tgat salvation because they lac works. Edited January 24, 2016 by Zakuska
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 Just now, Bobbieaware said: What a terrible, cold-hearted and unmerciful way for a supposedly perfectly loving God to rule and reign in his kingdom. It sounds like something an earthly despot would dream up, only worse: No mercy, no second chances, and too bad if you think he's callous, capricious and unfair. You will win few if any converts to your cause around here because most of us have believed in a God of true justice, mercy, compassion and perfect love for too long to jsuddenly jump ship into a religion with a sovereign who acts more like a soulless, unfeeling machine than even a halfway decent earthly father. And it was the apostle Paul who when speaking of the resurrection said, "there is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars. And as one star differs from another star in glory (brightness), so also is the resurrection of the dead." Doesn't sound like such a great leap of logic to me. In fact, it makes perfect sense. Just now, Bobbieaware said: What a terrible, cold-hearted and unmerciful way for a supposedly perfectly loving God to rule and reign in his kingdom. It sounds like something an earthly despot would dream up, only worse: No mercy, no second chances, and too bad if you think he's callous, capricious and unfair. You will win few if any converts to your cause around here because most of us have believed in a God of true justice, mercy, compassion and perfect love for too long to jsuddenly jump ship into a religion with a sovereign who acts more like a soulless, unfeeling machine than even a halfway decent earthly father. And it was the apostle Paul who when speaking of the resurrection said, "there is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars. And as one star differs from another star in glory (brightness), so also is the resurrection of the dead." Doesn't sound like such a great leap of logic to me. In fact, it makes perfect sense. You had your entire life to decide. That's why I still have never met anyone past the age of 40 who gave their life to Christ. That is the biggest reach I have ever seen sun, moon, stars now multiple different heavens? There is one New City and rewards are done away with and the saved are all pillars of the New City. Period. It would seem cold hearted to add different heavens based on works to get there and if your works aren't good enough you drop down even all the way to Hell. Whereas a loving God always keeps His elect and never lets them go. That is love.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 2 minutes ago, Zakuska said: vv.8,23 “Upon the good ground”—That is, upon a good heart, one that obeys God’s will. “Understandeth” means to understand in the spirit. For fruit bearing, more than faith is required. A hundredfold is perfect; sixty passes the half way mark; thirty is below half; but any below thirty is insignificant. Though the heart is good, there may yet be hindrance. Yep theres the 3 degrees of glory. Tekestial Terestrial Celestial Just a cute invention TE+Lestial = Telestial taken from Swedenborg. Matt. 13.8,23 is saying there are different Christians in terms of their spirituality; rewards pertain to reigning in the millennial kingdom. After that rewards are done away with for the New City.
halconero Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) 38 minutes ago, savedwheat said: If other passages say people are asleep then they are asleep. Period. If other passages say they are in prison being preached to then they are in prison being preached to. Period. See how that works? Edited January 24, 2016 by halconero
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 Figuratively. They are asleep waiting resurrection. You can't communicate if you are missing a body.
halconero Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Nah. They're just figuratively sleeping. Literally the Bible says they're in prison. Your sleeping verses are metaphorical while my Paradise/Prison verses of the Bible are literal. 1
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) Asleep is asleep. I don't want to speculate beyond that. For a human being to be conscience they need a body and they haven't been given a bod yet. Edited January 24, 2016 by savedwheat
Bobbieaware Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 14 minutes ago, savedwheat said: You had your entire life to decide. That's why I still have never met anyone past the age of 40 who gave their life to Christ. That is the biggest reach I have ever seen sun, moon, stars now multiple different heavens? There is one New City and rewards are done away with and the saved are all pillars of the New City. Period. It would seem cold hearted to add different heavens based on works to get there and if your works aren't good enough you drop down even all the way to Hell. Whereas a loving God always keeps His elect and never lets them go. That is love. Your attitude is a true reflection of what you believe.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 Thank you. I don't know how to disprove what I believe.
halconero Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 2 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Asleep is asleep. I don't want to speculate beyond that. For a human being to be conscience they need a body and they haven't been given a bod yet. Prison is prison. I don't want to speculate beyond that. I rely on the Bible for that doctrine and nothing more. For a human being can be conscious as a spirit so they can be preached to by Jesus after they died.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 Technically the good side of Hades is not a prison because Jews call it paradise below. Humans can't be conscious as a spirit because we need a body. We are not like the angels. We are living souls which require a spirit and a body.
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