savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 If person goes to the telestial kingdom for not believing in Jesus that is quite contrary to Christians who teach those who reject Christ go to Hell. Salvation is by works in mormonism because your destination depends on your works, whereas Christianity all saved become pillars of the New City. Salvation by works is further seen in an Apostate Mormon going to Hell whereas in Christianity once saved always saved "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). So it seems Mormonism is a works based or self strengthened based faith like all other religions. The strongest survive. The weak perish. Natural selection of eternal progression. It's not like that in Christianity at all. The weak will inherit the earth.
JLHPROF Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 1 minute ago, savedwheat said: If person goes to the telestial kingdom for not believing in Jesus that is quite contrary to Christians who teach those who reject Christ go to Hell. No, not really. Telestial = Hell D&C 76:81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament. 82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus. 83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit. 84 These are they who are thrust down to hell. Quote Salvation is by works in mormonism because your destination depends on your works, whereas Christianity all saved become pillars of the New City. Salvation by works is further seen in an Apostate Mormon going to Hell whereas in Christianity once saved always saved "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). Again, not accurate. (You really need to learn more about Mormons). Salvation means redeemed from the dead (saved from the grave). Works has no impact on that at all. Works just determines what you do in your saved condition once you get there. Also Christ says only those that love him will be saved and he says only those that keep his commandments love him, and that those who say Lord, Lord claiming him as Savior without works will be rejected. Quote So it seems Mormonism is a works based or self strengthened based faith like all other religions. The strongest survive. The weak perish. Natural selection of eternal progression. It's not like that in Christianity at all. The weak will inherit the earth. Actually, the meek shall inherit the earth, not the weak. 2
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 How can you go to Hell and telestial at the same time? By the way the moon is a moon, start is a star, they aren't pointing to different heavens. That's goofy. The Bible teaches salvation is now, eternal life now (John 17.3) whoever is born again. That is not a comforting feeling not knowing you will be saved like all other religions. Whereas believers know we are saved now which can ever be lost. If works has no impact how is that someone could be a Mormon then become an apostate Mormon? In Christianity Lord, Lord both are saved, but one receives reward of reigning the other not. The meek are weak.
Zakuska Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Just now, savedwheat said: Salvation by works is further seen in an Apostate Mormon going to Hell whereas in Christianity once saved always saved "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). If your interpretation is correct then Jesus parable is a lie. Luke 8 4 ¶And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable: 5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. 6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. 7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. 8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. 9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? 10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares andriches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit toperfection. 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honestand good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forthfruit with patience. These people hear the word... accept the holy spirit into their heart... are "saved" in every sense of the word and yet still find away to "fall away" from salvation. And this verse is redundant... Heb 6 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of theworld to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 1
JLHPROF Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Just now, savedwheat said: How can you go to Hell and telestial at the same time? Same place. Quote The meek are weak. No, the meek are humble and teachable, something that takes great strength. Give it a try. 4
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 Pictures of the 3 heavens are separate from the picture of Hell so how can the telestial be hell unless you are in a sect of Mormonism that fixed that problem?
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 In this parable the ground is the heart. Everyone is saved except those the side falls on the wayside. These are different kinds of believers but they still all believe. None ever lose salvation.
JLHPROF Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 1 minute ago, savedwheat said: Pictures of the 3 heavens are separate from the picture of Hell so how can the telestial be hell unless you are in a sect of Mormonism that fixed that problem? Sorry, I didn't realize you were using the primary coloring book version of Mormonism. I was using the actual scriptures. 1
Zakuska Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) 1 minute ago, savedwheat said: In this parable the ground is the heart. Everyone is saved except those the side falls on the wayside. These are different kinds of believers but they still all believe. None ever lose salvation. Those who "crucify Christ a new" don't lose Salvation? Not according to Hebrews 6:8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. Believers who fail to bring forth "Works (aka fruits) to Perfection" are cadt into the fire. "Once saved always saved" is a devilish myth. Edited January 24, 2016 by Zakuska 1
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 Christians don't crucify Jesus anew. Be burned—This fits in well with what 1 Corinthians 3.15 says about God’s fire burning up the person’s work. Such a person is like a living garbage can in which are stored many unclean things that will be purified through the fire. We should rejoice on the one hand and be warned on the other. Our salvation is safe and secure on the one side, yet on the other side we will receive punishment if we do not behave. Although such punishment is not permanent, we shall have no part in the millennial kingdom. To sum up, then, Hebrews 6.1-3 states that the foundation is not to be laid again; verses 4-6 explain that it is impossible to again lay the foundation from whence a believer has fallen but there must be a rising up, since there is no possibility of going back to renew his first repentance; and verses 7 and 8 conclude that one should not misbehave, because he will surely be punished if he persists.
Zakuska Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) Just now, savedwheat said: Christians don't crucify Jesus anew. Be burned—This fits in well with what 1 Corinthians 3.15 says about God’s fire burning up the person’s work. Such a person is like a living garbage can in which are stored many unclean things that will be purified through the fire. We should rejoice on the one hand and be warned on the other. Our salvation is safe and secure on the one side, yet on the other side we will receive punishment if we do not behave. Although such punishment is not permanent, we shall have no part in the millennial kingdom. To sum up, then, Hebrews 6.1-3 states that the foundation is not to be laid again; verses 4-6 explain that it is impossible to again lay the foundation from whence a believer has fallen but there must be a rising up, since there is no possibility of going back to renew his first repentance; and verses 7 and 8 conclude that one should not misbehave, because he will surely be punished if he persists. If they 'believe for a while' as the parable says and then let temptation over come them... yes they do "crucify christ a new". And the "fall from grace". OSAS is a develish heresy. Edited January 24, 2016 by Zakuska 1
Bobbieaware Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 22 minutes ago, savedwheat said: If person goes to the telestial kingdom for not believing in Jesus that is quite contrary to Christians who teach those who reject Christ go to Hell. Salvation is by works in mormonism because your destination depends on your works, whereas Christianity all saved become pillars of the New City. Salvation by works is further seen in an Apostate Mormon going to Hell whereas in Christianity once saved always saved "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). So it seems Mormonism is a works based or self strengthened based faith like all other religions. The strongest survive. The weak perish. Natural selection of eternal progression. It's not like that in Christianity at all. The weak will inherit the earth. You are ignorant of what the Latter-day Saints actually believe. Doctrine and Covenants sections 76 and 138 combine to reveal that the inheritors of the telestial kingdom will eventually accept Christ and receive a remission of sins through repentance PRIOR to the resurrection. Before you proceed arguing your point any further, please carefully read and ponder the two above sections of the Doctrine and Covenants and then we'll chat. If you ignore my advise, you're going to be wasting a lot of time and effort chasing non-existent fantoms.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 2 minutes ago, Zakuska said: If they 'believe for a while' as the parable says and then let temptation over come them... yes they do "crucify christ a new". And the "fall from grace". OSAS is a develish heresy. John 10.28 disagrees with you "they shall never perish". It would be a weird kind of salvation if you could get saved, lose it, get it back, lose it again, on and on. Nobody believes for awhile but gave their life to Christ to be kept so He always keeps them believing. You can't crucify anew that's the point.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 3 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: You are ignorant of what the Latter-day Saints actually believe. Doctrine and Covenants sections 76 and 138 combine to reveal that the inheritors of the telestial kingdom will eventually accept Christ and receive a remission of sins through repentance PRIOR to the resurrection. Before you proceed arguing your point any further, please carefully read and ponder the two above sections of the Doctrine and Covenants and then we'll chat. If you ignore my advise, you're going to be wasting a lot of time and effort chasing non-existent fantoms. 3 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: You are ignorant of what the Latter-day Saints actually believe. Doctrine and Covenants sections 76 and 138 combine to reveal that the inheritors of the telestial kingdom will eventually accept Christ and receive a remission of sins through repentance PRIOR to the resurrection. Before you proceed arguing your point any further, please carefully read and ponder the two above sections of the Doctrine and Covenants and then we'll chat. If you ignore my advise, you're going to be wasting a lot of time and effort chasing non-existent fantoms. Whereas the Bible teaches once you die that's it, decision is final, because you are asleep and wait to get resurrected. You can't repent if you are asleep. You're asleep until resurrected. So nonetheless you have people going to heaven who don't believe in Christ irrespective if you think they will still end up believing. It's a fallacy built on thinking there are multiple heavens based on the fact we have a moon, sun and stars. That is the farthest stretch I have ever seen.
JLHPROF Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 1 minute ago, savedwheat said: Whereas the Bible teaches once you die that's it, decision is final, because you are asleep and wait to get resurrected. You can't repent if you are asleep. You're asleep until resurrected. So nonetheless you have people going to heaven who don't believe in Christ irrespective if you think they will still end up believing. It's a fallacy built on thinking there are multiple heavens based on the fact we have a moon, sun and stars. That is the farthest stretch I have ever seen. So Christ preaching to the deceased spirits from Noah's day was pointless - more of a "your end is decided, tough cheese" kind of preaching.
Zakuska Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) Just now, savedwheat said: John 10.28 disagrees with you "they shall never perish". It would be a weird kind of salvation if you could get saved, lose it, get it back, lose it again, on and on. Nobody believes for awhile but gave their life to Christ to be kept so He always keeps them believing. You can't crucify anew that's the point. So then you are calling Christ a liar then because he says there are some who do just that in the parable of the sower. He says "saved people" can lose their salvation here too unless they mantain their "good works". Rev 2 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. Edited January 24, 2016 by Zakuska 1
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 Going down to Hades is figurative. You can't be awake without a body. You are living soul with a body and a spirit. Fallen is not fallen all the way. They still believe. It's about rewards and loss of rewards. 2.5 The Lord tells them a way of restoration. (1) “Remember therefore whence thou art fallen”—This means there should be an investigation of the cause. There is a reason for each retrogression. Unless the cause is found, restoration is impossible. According to the Lord’s view, even though the church in Ephesus is outwardly perfect she has already fallen inwardly. Inner fall precedes outer failure. (2) “And repent”—Repentance is not only required of sinners, it is likewise necessary for believers. Whenever there is a falling away, there is the need for repentance. (3) “And do the first works”—Repentance is negative, while “do the first works” is positive. From this word we may deduce that the church in Ephesus is not doing what she really did before. What were the things that she previously did? We know these could not have been toil, patience, diligence, resisting evil men, and so forth. In spite of the fact that nothing is explicitly mentioned, a careful reading of the letter to the Ephesians will convince us of two things which they had been doing before: (1) they were faithful (1.1), and (2) they let Christ be Lord (3.17). Hence, in this verse the Lord shows the way to restoration on the one hand and discloses His judgment on the other—the way of first love, but then followed by a warning: “Or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou repent”—Move the candlestick out of its place! Since the word candlestick represents the church, the duty of the church is to shine, that is, to witness.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 These other 6 church periods span that past 2000 years so the church did not go missing.
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Saved wheat read Doctrine and Covenants section 137. There's still hope once you die. There's more scriptures than just the Bible. Why do you only believe the Bible?
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 Nothing in the Bible about salvation after you die. You're asleep get resurrected judged. You won't repent if you rejected Jesus before you died.
Zakuska Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 All one need do is read Ezekiel 18 to see the cycle of a Believer falling away and regaining salvation only to fall again and then regain it again through repentance. Something savedwheet says is "weird".
halconero Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 18 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Going down to Hades is figurative. You can't be awake without a body. You are living soul with a body and a spirit. Ah, the good ole, "it's figurative when it doesn't line up with my theology," deal. Classic. 1
halconero Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 51 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Sorry, I didn't realize you were using the primary coloring book version of Mormonism. I was using the actual scriptures. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_burn_centers_in_the_United_States
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 4 minutes ago, halconero said: Ah, the good ole, "it's figurative when it doesn't line up with my theology," deal. Classic. If other passages say people are asleep then they are asleep. Period.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 6 minutes ago, Zakuska said: All one need do is read Ezekiel 18 to see the cycle of a Believer falling away and regaining salvation only to fall again and then regain it again through repentance. Something savedwheet says is "weird". Sorry I don't see that. You're misreading it. It agree with John 10.28 "they shall never perish".
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