The Nehor Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 20 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Faith and works are contrasted. So having faith in Jesus is not a work. But in Mormonism salvation is by works because depending on you works you will go to different heavens. And you non-OSAS so you get saved as a Mormon and then can still go to Hell as an apostate Mormon. Such is not possible in Christianity. Paul contrasted it at times because he ran into some yahoos who were firm believers that their works alone would save them. He corrected them. Paul was not teaching that works were unimportant. He was teaching that without the grace of God their works were useless and he was right. Without the atonement they would be. No, you know nothing of Mormonism other then what you have read on websites written by idiots. In the LDS faith salvation is through Christ's atonement. We make covenants with God and when we fulfill those covenants through Christ's power changing us to live those covenants he will use his infinite power to save us. yes, you can go to hell if you fall. Hence all those warnings in the New Testament about holding firm to your faith and enduring tribulation to win the prize. Paul points out that the Jews lost their relationship with God due to their falling away and that the same thing can happen to his readers. Again, your limited grasp of Christianity. Tell that to a Catholic or Orthodox Christian and they would probably laugh at you. You do not define what Christianity is. Christ and his servants do.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 8 minutes ago, The Nehor said: So there is a difference between salvation and where you reign in the kingdom of God based on works. Some sort of degrees of glory system? And for the sheep and the goats quite bluntly you are absolutely wrong. The parable says he will gather the nations and separate put the people into sheep and goats implying there is a mixture in each nation. If he were judging nations as a whole he would have said gathered the nations and judged which nations were sheep and which were goats. And he is definitely demanding a certain kind of conduct to be a sheep. That is an idiotic reading of the letter to the Seven Churches. Jesus warned them to hold fast or they could lose their crowns, have their lamp removed, that they have forsaken their first love, and other warning to hold fast or be cast out. Why no comforting mentions of how if they are once saved they are always saved? Seems like an ideal time for it. Since it seems flatly contradicted I think we can assume neither Jesus or John believed in the doctrine Luther and the rest would invent much later. Oh, and if you read the verses around it John 10:28 applies to those who believe the words of Jesus AND follow him. I think you missed the second part there. He is separating the good nations from the bad nations. Crown is reward. Lamp is light. This parable in Matt. 25.31-46 applies to the Gentile nations. According to the Scriptures the inhabited world is divided into three classes of people: the Jews, the church, and the nations. Both the Jews and the church have already been touched upon in chapters 24 and 25. Now in this remaining passage of chapter 25, Jesus’ prophecy as to what will happen to the nations at the end time has been recorded. John 10.28 they have eternal life now; that which is eternal "they shall never perish". You're all gung ho on other planets, but this is the only planet needed. There is no need to talk about losing salvation for they know they are saved.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 4 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Paul contrasted it at times because he ran into some yahoos who were firm believers that their works alone would save them. He corrected them. Paul was not teaching that works were unimportant. He was teaching that without the grace of God their works were useless and he was right. Without the atonement they would be. No, you know nothing of Mormonism other then what you have read on websites written by idiots. In the LDS faith salvation is through Christ's atonement. We make covenants with God and when we fulfill those covenants through Christ's power changing us to live those covenants he will use his infinite power to save us. yes, you can go to hell if you fall. Hence all those warnings in the New Testament about holding firm to your faith and enduring tribulation to win the prize. Paul points out that the Jews lost their relationship with God due to their falling away and that the same thing can happen to his readers. Again, your limited grasp of Christianity. Tell that to a Catholic or Orthodox Christian and they would probably laugh at you. You do not define what Christianity is. Christ and his servants do. Catholics believe they can lose salvation. You believe you can lose salvation. Christians know we can never lose salvation. That's a God you can trust in.
The Nehor Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 2 minutes ago, savedwheat said: He is separating the good nations from the bad nations. Crown is reward. Lamp is light. This parable in Matt. 25.31-46 applies to the Gentile nations. According to the Scriptures the inhabited world is divided into three classes of people: the Jews, the church, and the nations. Both the Jews and the church have already been touched upon in chapters 24 and 25. Now in this remaining passage of chapter 25, Jesus’ prophecy as to what will happen to the nations at the end time has been recorded. John 10.28 they have eternal life now; that which is eternal "they shall never perish". You're all gung ho on other planets, but this is the only planet needed. There is no need to talk about losing salvation for they know they are saved. Repeating the same disproved points over and over again is not impressing anyone. Again, they were warned about losing salvation. You constantly ignore this. If you want to put your fingers in your ears and play the "I am not listening!" game you are welcome to do so but could you please do it somewhere else? The adults use this place to talk. 1
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 Just now, The Nehor said: Repeating the same disproved points over and over again is not impressing anyone. Again, they were warned about losing salvation. You constantly ignore this. If you want to put your fingers in your ears and play the "I am not listening!" game you are welcome to do so but could you please do it somewhere else? The adults use this place to talk. Who is warned about losing salvation? Supply the verse and I'll show you are wrong. Your faith is like all other faiths in the world when you can lose salvation. Only in Christianity is that impossible because God is loving and triune.
The Nehor Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 3 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Catholics believe they can lose salvation. You believe you can lose salvation. Christians know we can never lose salvation. That's a God you can trust in. And by Christians you mean a subset of the Protestant faith who made up their faith out of strained readings of scripture and their own wishful thinking without revelation or sanction from God. I will stick with living prophets and apostles who can relay the word of God and not millenia-later reevaluations of scripture with no historical basis. You always seem to ignore the history point. If the Christians who knew and followed Jesus and the apostles do not agree with you shouldn't that tell you something? Do you know anything about history? "To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant" A general rule with exceptions but I find it is often true.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) Just know each church period there are believers and they constitute the body of Christ. They are spoken to in Rev. 2 & 3 describing the trials they will endure. Ephesus - lost their first love Smyrna - martyrdom 2nd century Pergamum - high tower marriage of church and state of Constantine Thyatira - beginning days the Roman Catholic Church before it was corrupted. Sardis - revivals of the 15th century filling the glass with less water each time Philadelphia - 1830 Brethren movement wanted to just be called Christians Laodicean - up to today differing opinions neither hot nor cold. The first 3 are no longer with us today, but the last 4 types continue. http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/7churches.htm Edited January 24, 2016 by savedwheat
The Nehor Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 11 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Who is warned about losing salvation? Supply the verse and I'll show you are wrong. Your faith is like all other faiths in the world when you can lose salvation. Only in Christianity is that impossible because God is loving and triune. I have pointed out many such scriptures to you but you just babble about them or ignore them. You argue that the crowns being lost or the lamp removed do not refer to eternal salvation when they clearly do. You ignore it when I point out what Jesus said on the subject of qualifying for salvation and repeat rote cliches. You are not having a discussion. You are trying to preach and doing a bad job of it.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I have pointed out many such scriptures to you but you just babble about them or ignore them. You argue that the crowns being lost or the lamp removed do not refer to eternal salvation when they clearly do. You ignore it when I point out what Jesus said on the subject of qualifying for salvation and repeat rote cliches. You are not having a discussion. You are trying to preach and doing a bad job of it. Crowns are rewards not life. “And I will give thee the crown of life”—What a precious promise, what a blessed hope is this (James 1.12). What is promised here is not just life, but the crown of life. Life is received through believing; the crown of life is obtained by being faithful. “Crown” speaks of glory, reigning with the Lord in the kingdom of the heavens. Edited January 24, 2016 by savedwheat
The Nehor Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 2 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Crowns are rewards not life. “And I will give thee the crown of life”—What a precious promise, what a blessed hope is this (James 1.12). What is promised here is not just life, but the crown of life. Life is received through believing; the crown of life is obtained by being faithful. “Crown” speaks of glory, reigning with the Lord in the kingdom of the heavens. So you are saying that depending on works performed you will get a different reward? Again you contradict yourself. Stop trying to smuggle in works via the back door. If I get a lesser reward from God based on works there are degrees of rewards available based on works. You are preaching pseudo-Mormonism while trying to condemn it. Does this mean you are going to hell for holding bad beliefs?
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 In Christianity our works are unto rewards for the millennial kingdom. After that rewards are done away with for the New City on the New Earth. That's quite different than what you believe because your works unto one of three heavens, and you can lose salvation, but Christians can never lose eternal life.
The Nehor Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 1 minute ago, savedwheat said: In Christianity our works are unto rewards for the millennial kingdom. After that rewards are done away with for the New City on the New Earth. That's quite different than what you believe because your works unto one of three heavens, and you can lose salvation, but Christians can never lose eternal life. Funny how the Bible never actually says that and none of the early Christians thought it. It is almost like someone made it up to try to cover all those multitude of verses demanding good conduct and hoped no one would notice that said verses said nothing about the Millenial kingdom. I calls these kinds of people charlatans. What do you call them?
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 4 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Funny how the Bible never actually says that and none of the early Christians thought it. It is almost like someone made it up to try to cover all those multitude of verses demanding good conduct and hoped no one would notice that said verses said nothing about the Millenial kingdom. I calls these kinds of people charlatans. What do you call them? That's exactly what the early church believed. They called it Chiliasm.
The Nehor Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) 7 minutes ago, savedwheat said: That's exactly what the early church believed. They called it Chiliasm. Liar! Deceiver! Yes, chiliasm is the belief that there will be a 1,000 year reign of Jesus on earth. This is a belief LDS have. However you sneakily tried to imply Chiliasm also supports your idea that scripture about losing salvation apply only to said Millenial reign which the early Christians DID NOT believe. They believed that conduct affected the Millenial reign and your eternal state. As a digression liars and deceivers scripturally go to hell. You may want to fix that. Edited January 24, 2016 by The Nehor
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 I wasn't aware Mormons believed in the millennial reign of Christ. I thought they believed in being gods of planets. The early church fathers did believe OSAS and rewards to reign in the millennial based on overcoming. After all that is what the Bible says. Conduct did not effect eternal state, only the millennial reign.
The Nehor Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 3 minutes ago, savedwheat said: I wasn't aware Mormons believed in the millennial reign of Christ. I thought they believed in being gods of planets. The early church fathers did believe OSAS and rewards to reign in the millennial based on overcoming. After all that is what the Bible says. Conduct did not effect eternal state, only the millennial reign. Mormons believe in a Millenial reign followed by a final judgement. Those who lived their covenants and enter into exaltation will become like God. Again, your research about us is incredibly shoddy. As to the rest of your post it is a bunch of baseless assertions that you want to be true or someone told you they were true and you believed them. The evidence says otherwise.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) 7 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Mormons believe in a Millenial reign followed by a final judgement. Those who lived their covenants and enter into exaltation will become like God. Again, your research about us is incredibly shoddy. As to the rest of your post it is a bunch of baseless assertions that you want to be true or someone told you they were true and you believed them. The evidence says otherwise. So you reject the Jesus who returns to reign on earth for 1000 years? Did you want verses to support OSAS and reward for overcoming to reign in the millennium with Christ? Did you know there is not enough planets in the universe for all the Mormon gods of planets? That becomes a mathematical quandary. Edited January 24, 2016 by savedwheat
The Nehor Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 10 minutes ago, savedwheat said: So you reject the Jesus who returns to reign on earth for 1000 years? Did you want verses to support OSAS and reward for overcoming to reign in the millennium with Christ? Did you know there is not enough planets in the universe for all the Mormon gods of planets? That becomes a mathematical quandary. No, I am waiting for Jesus to come and reign on earth, I already said that. Why are you suggesting I do not? Are you just dumb? No, I do not want those verses. You have proven such a poor interpreter of scripture I fully expect to laugh at any attempts you make. How many Mormon gods are there compared to number of planets? Hardly a mathematical quandry unless you know the numbers. I also do not believe this is the only Universe there is. The idea that Mormons get one planet is a myth created by our enemies. I am not sure how it works but if I am exalted I expect to rule much more then one little mudball. A universe? Multiple universes? Realities we cannot conceive of? I do not know but I look forward to finding out.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: No, I am waiting for Jesus to come and reign on earth, I already said that. Why are you suggesting I do not? Are you just dumb? No, I do not want those verses. You have proven such a poor interpreter of scripture I fully expect to laugh at any attempts you make. How many Mormon gods are there compared to number of planets? Hardly a mathematical quandry unless you know the numbers. I also do not believe this is the only Universe there is. The idea that Mormons get one planet is a myth created by our enemies. I am not sure how it works but if I am exalted I expect to rule much more then one little mudball. A universe? Multiple universes? Realities we cannot conceive of? I do not know but I look forward to finding out. Hypothetically what you are going to do when Jesus says at His return that He created all things and that Him and His Father with the Spirit were alone from everlasting and none beside the Triune God? It's a very easy calculation. If 1% of humans are gods of planets and the average population is 4 billion the past two centuries that's about 10 generations. So 4 billion/100=40 million. So 40 million ^ 10 = 10^75. There are only 10^24 planets in the universe. And what about all the people prior to the 19th century that you baptize for so they can be gods of planets too. And there are really no planets that are habitable according to Hugh Ross as 800 variables are needed for life to exist on another planet. Whereas the Bible teaches this one earth and there is one new earth with a great high mountain on it John viewed the New City from that 1379 x 1379 miles.
The Nehor Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 22 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Hypothetically what you are going to do when Jesus says at His return that He created all things and that Him and His Father with the Spirit were alone from everlasting and none beside the Triune God? It's a very easy calculation. If 1% of humans are gods of planets and the average population is 4 billion the past two centuries that's about 10 generations. So 4 billion/100=40 million. So 40 million ^ 10 = 10^75. There are only 10^24 planets in the universe. And what about all the people prior to the 19th century that you baptize for so they can be gods of planets too. And there are really no planets that are habitable according to Hugh Ross as 800 variables are needed for life to exist on another planet. Whereas the Bible teaches this one earth and there is one new earth with a great high mountain on it John viewed the New City from that 1379 x 1379 miles. Hypothetically I would ask laugh and tell him that is a good joke. He almost had me. You made up those calculations. We have no way of knowing how many planets there are in the universe. Either that or you blindly trusted someone else's guesses. No one is baptized to become a god of a planet. I explained that but you ignored me because you only believe "facts" pulled from the Internet written by idiots. there are no planets that are habitable? Really, what do you call earth? And yes, there are many factors necessary for a planet to support life like ours. But you see we believe that God created the universe so he can make it however he likes and make lots of habitable planets. Maybe your god cannot handle more then one at a time or just relies on blind chance and hopes a habitable planet will pop up?
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 Just now, The Nehor said: Hypothetically I would ask laugh and tell him that is a good joke. He almost had me. You made up those calculations. We have no way of knowing how many planets there are in the universe. Either that or you blindly trusted someone else's guesses. No one is baptized to become a god of a planet. I explained that but you ignored me because you only believe "facts" pulled from the Internet written by idiots. there are no planets that are habitable? Really, what do you call earth? And yes, there are many factors necessary for a planet to support life like ours. But you see we believe that God created the universe so he can make it however he likes and make lots of habitable planets. Maybe your god cannot handle more then one at a time or just relies on blind chance and hopes a habitable planet will pop up? Scientists already know fairly accurately how many planets there are 10^24. You're behind the times. So nobody prior to the 1800s gets to be a god of a planet? Too bad for them? No planet except earth of course. But none of them are habitable so what's wrong with your god that he is going to make god of an uninhabitable planet and not even enough planets for your turn to be god of a planet Whereas God says that is all vain. You only need one planet to show God's glory. In fact, it makes life that much more precious.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) Why should your god not be trusted? He didn't create all things and was not alone from everlasting before time and space. You should also not trust him because he teaches you could lose salvation after being saved. And claims people who reject Christ are in heaven, but just don't believe him yet. They are still sinful and selfish. In the Christian there is no sin or selfishness. That's weird that there is a planet where those people go who reject Jesus but then they all believe him? That's seems kind of goofy to be living out your life thinking to yourself in heaven you don't believe in Jesus but you are told eventually will. That's quite a prophecy to know everyone in telestial will be saved. I don't quite understand though, to be honest, who goes where. Who goes to terrestial? And who goes to the 3 levels of celestial? Are black people still only servants? What's the ruling on that because I know the story keeps changing. Mormon apostates go to Hell. They were once saved but no longer since they went rogue. I thought you could baptize yourself for them to save them after the die? My mistake. Edited January 24, 2016 by savedwheat
The Nehor Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 1 minute ago, savedwheat said: Scientists already know fairly accurately how many planets there are 10^24. You're behind the times. So nobody prior to the 1800s gets to be a god of a planet? Too bad for them? No planet except earth of course. But none of them are habitable so what's wrong with your god that he is going to make god of an uninhabitable planet and not even enough planets for your turn to be god of a planet Whereas God says that is all vain. You only need one planet to show God's glory. In fact, it makes life that much more precious. No, scientists do not know that fairly accurately. It is based on an incredibly small sample size and they acknowledge that. If I am behind the times you are taking a vacation from the space time continuum. I did not say anything like that about people prior to the 1800s and you are stupid for thinking I did. Then you devolve off into weird conclusions based on asinine assumptions. So if one planet shows God's glory better then two then no planets would show his glory even better. Therefore I can conclude that you do not exist. This is something of a relief.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 9 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Hypothetically I would ask laugh and tell him that is a good joke. He almost had me. You made up those calculations. We have no way of knowing how many planets there are in the universe. Either that or you blindly trusted someone else's guesses. No one is baptized to become a god of a planet. I explained that but you ignored me because you only believe "facts" pulled from the Internet written by idiots. there are no planets that are habitable? Really, what do you call earth? And yes, there are many factors necessary for a planet to support life like ours. But you see we believe that God created the universe so he can make it however he likes and make lots of habitable planets. Maybe your god cannot handle more then one at a time or just relies on blind chance and hopes a habitable planet will pop up? Let's be serious. Hypothetically my Jesus presents Himself to you. Would you accept Him or reject Him? He says He always existed for eternity before time and space, the 2nd Person of the Godhead. The Trinity is One Being in 3 Persons. He created all things. And there was none beside Him or before Him, in the event you believe like Joseph Smith taught all gods use to be men and they were begotten by their gods on and on for an eternity of the past. So seriously would you accept Him and repent of what you now believe? I theorize like everyone who is not saved who comes to the GWT that they won't repent and nor will you accept the Jesus I presented. Like you have already indicated you will assume is joking. But when you get over the initial shock He is not joking will you repent of Mormonism and accept Him? Remember this is just hypothetical but trying to get a genuine response from you.
The Nehor Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 4 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Let's be serious. Hypothetically my Jesus presents Himself to you. Would you accept Him or reject Him? He says He always existed for eternity before time and space, the 2nd Person of the Godhead. The Trinity is One Being in 3 Persons. He created all things. And there was none beside Him or before Him, in the event you believe like Joseph Smith taught all gods use to be men and they were begotten by their gods on and on for an eternity of the past. So seriously would you accept Him and repent of what you now believe? I theorize like everyone who is not saved who comes to the GWT that they won't repent and nor will you accept the Jesus I presented. Like you have already indicated you will assume is joking. But when you get over the initial shock He is not joking will you repent of Mormonism and accept Him? Remember this is just hypothetical but trying to get a genuine response from you. I would cast out the tricky devil masquerading as an angel of light. 2
Recommended Posts