Bom Evidence Book Of Mormon Ties To Native Americans

[Tom m]

Book of Mormon ties
Listed are what I believe to be ties to the Book of Mormon either through legend or culture.
An Ojibwa Indian Chief named Keeshkemun who succeeded his father to be chief is mentioned in Warrens book. Keeshkemun sounds strikingly familiar to Kishkumen the Gadianton leader and one of the cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon. In fact if you google Keeshkemun Kishumen will come up. Ojibwa have some of the highest haplo group x dna.

Mosiah 2:7
7 For the multitude being so great that king Benjamin could not teach them all within the walls of the temple, therefore he caused a tower to be erected, that thereby his people might hear the words which he should speak unto them.
“Professor Carr of its once having supported a building similar to the council-house observed by Bartram on a mound at the old Cherokee town Cowe. Both were built on mounds, both were circular, both were built on posts set in the ground at equal distances from each other, and each had a central pillar. As tending to confirm this statement of Bartram's, the following passage may be quoted, where, speaking of Colonel Christian's march against the Cherokee towns in 1770, Eamsey' says that this officer found in the center of each town ''a circular tower rudely built and covered with dirt, 30 feet in diameter, and about 20 feet high. This tower was used as a council-house… Mr. M. C. Bead, of Hudson, Ohio, discovered similar evidences in a mound near Chattanooga, and Mr. Gerard Fowke has quite recently found the same thing in a mound at Waverly, Ohio.”
(Thomas 1889 pg32)

This is a stretch but worth the effort. The Cherokee have a myth listed below. I would like to tie it to the Lamanite daughters who would go out to Shemlon to dance and make merry but are abducted by the priests of Noah and become their spouses. The Lamanites try to find the daughters and blame the Nephites for their disappearance which causes a war. This war continues until the Lamanites are told that the Nephites did not abduct the girls. The daughters stop the priests from being killed when they are found out.
“Allured by the haunting sound and diamond sparkle of a mountain stream, she wandered far up into a solitary glen, …..The dream picture of a fairyland was presently broken by the soft touch of a strange hand. The spirit of her dream occupied a place at her side, and, wooing, won her for his bride.
"Her supposed abduction caused great excitement among her people, who made
diligent search for her recovery in their own villages. Being unsuccessful, they
made war upon the neighboring tribes in the hope of finding the place of her concealment. Grieved because of so much bloodshed and sorrow, she besought the
great chief …..She appeared unto the chiefs in a dream(to stop the fighting),
(Mooney 1902 pg478)

The Saying Bury the Hatchet
    The Book of Mormon tells the history of the Anti Nephi’s a Lamanite people who no longer wanted to fight or kill other people. They made this covenant to God to longer fight by burying their weapons in the ground never to use them again even in the case of self-defense for themselves or for their family.
    The saying bury the hatchet comes from the Algonquin Indians of the Great Lakes area who also made peace by burying their weapons of war. As mentioned before I think the Hopewell Indians are the best candidate to be the Nephites for numerous reasons this is one of them.
    The first mention of the practice in English is to an actual hatchet-burying ceremony.
Years before he gained notoriety for presiding over the Salem witch trials, Samuel Sewall wrote in 1680, "I write to you in one [letter] of the Mischief the Mohawks did; which occasioned Major Pynchon's going to Albany, where meeting with the Sachem the[y] came to an agreement and buried two Axes in the Ground; one for English another for themselves; which ceremony to them is more significant & binding than all Articles of Peace[,] the hatchet being a principal weapon with them."
South Carolina and the Cherokee Nation 1785
    Treaty of Hopewell 1785, Keowee, South Carolina: signed by Col. Benjamin Hawkins, Gen. Andrew Pickens and Headman McIntosh, establishing the boundary of the Cherokee Nation. Use of the phrase 'Bury the Hatchet"? ARTICLE 13. The hatchet shall be forever buried, and the peace given by the United States, and friendship re-established between the said states on the one part, and all the Cherokees on the other, shall be universal; and the contracting parties shall use their utmost endeavors to maintain the peace given as aforesaid, and friendship re-established.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Tom m

[Thinking]

In fact if you google Keeshkemun Kishumen will come up.

 

That's it. The internet gods have spoken. I'll be at church on Sunday!

[Brant Gardner]

Book of Mormon ties

Listed are what I believe to be ties to the Book of Mormon either through legend or culture.

An Ojibwa Indian Chief named Keeshkemun who succeeded his father to be chief is mentioned in Warrens book. Keeshkemun sounds strikingly familiar to Kishkumen the Gadianton leader and one of the cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

The "sounds like" phenomenon is one of the most dangerous because it leads to false positives. In this case, it is only the sound of a name that perhaps depends upon the way the name was recorded. For linguists, they allow about a 5% overlap in both sound and meaning in unrelated languages just because the human mouth and tongue do not have unlimited ways to form words. A single word is only the beginning of the investigation and requires a lot more work.

In fact if you google Keeshkemun Kishumen will come up. Ojibwa have some of the highest haplo group x dna.

Your information on genetics is reducing a lot of information into an incorrect summation title "haplo group X." The actual data are much more complicated and do not support the way you are using the information.

This is a stretch but worth the effort. The Cherokee have a myth listed below. I would like to tie it to the Lamanite daughters who would go out to Shemlon to dance and make merry but are abducted by the priests of Noah and become their spouses.

That you might like to make the correlation and having it be plausible are two different issues. In this case, the way the story is told clearly tells me that it dates from the time when the translations of native materials were pushed into Romance forms. There are books on the collection and translation of native materials. The originals, if translated more literally, don't sound much like the way they were recorded.

Material from myth and legend is very difficult to use and to correlate to history. That isn't saying that legends cannot encode history. They can and do. But it requires some work to make the case. Presenting the text and asserting a similarity is insufficient.

The Saying Bury the Hatchet

This is another excellent example of the danger of simple parallels. It certainly seems similar, unless you look at the differences. In the North American ceremony, two different peoples at war symbolically bury a single hatchet (or perhaps one from each tribe).

In the Book of Mormon, only one of the combatants made the oath, and they made it to God, not with (or to) the other people. Instead of burying a single symbolic weapon, they buried all of their weapons. It was not to signal a peace, but their unwillingness to take up weapons--an oath so strong that when they were about to break it to defend the Nephites defending them, the Nephites told them not to. In which case, those people sent their young sons (the stripling warriors). So it really had nothing to do with peace between two peoples at all.

The parallel exists only when you don't actually examine it. That is the problem of false parallels--something that looks like it might be, but really isn't.

[Tom m]

If you want to read about false parallels read the Meso American Book of Mormon model. Not one non-lds anthropologist will corroborate what lds anthropologist have put out about the Meso America model. A common quote is that it takes mental gymnastics. In the case of the North American model all the corroborating research has been done by non-lds scientist, anthropologist, and historians.

[Calm]

"Not one non-lds anthropologist will corroborate what lds anthropologist have put out about the Meso America model"

Please show us where they do for your model.

[ERayR]

That's it. The internet gods have spoken. I'll be at church on Sunday!

 

If you are close to my ward you can sit with me.

[Tom m]

^{"Not one non-lds anthropologist will corroborate what lds anthropologist have put out about the Meso America model"}

Please show us where they do for your model.

 

^{All quotes artifacts and research posted as evidence are done by non-lds sources. Please see the entire pdf essay I wrote that has pictures of the artifacts. The text one I first posted is out dated and I did not know you could attach pdf. I would not let me post it as a word document so I posted as a text.}

Edited July 3, 2015 by Tom m

[Tom m]

If you are close to my ward you can sit with me.

I would love to do you live in Arizona.

[ERayR]

I would love to do you live in Arizona.

 

Nope Idaho.  However if you come you have to promise not to derail our priesthood lessons.  Most of us agree that geography is irrelevant to the truth claims of the BoM.

Edited July 3, 2015 by ERayR

[cynth]

 ^{I would not let me post it ...}

if only your Freudian slip had gotten to you sooner.

[PeterPear]

Nope Idaho.  However if you come you have to promise not to derail our priesthood lessons.  Most of us agree that geography is irrelevant to the truth claims of the BoM.

Is that why the Mesoamerica Theory is supported? Because it's irrelevant to the truth claims of the BoM?

[ERayR]

Is that why the Mesoamerica Theory is supported? Because it's irrelevant to the truth claims of the BoM?

 

In our classes BoM geography is never mentioned.  I suppose there are some of several different geographical model persuasion but it doesn't become a topic for worship service discussion.  Most of us base our belief in the BoM on personal revelation received by taking Moroni's challenge.

[PeterPear]

Which Moroni's challenge would that be?

Moroni's challenge of walking all the way with the plates to upstate New York from Mesoamerica, so a 14-yr old boy in upstate New York would not have to walk all the way to Mesoamerica to get the plates?

Is practicality ruled out when in your priesthood classes you plan activities or determine the directions you should drive when visiting members you Home Teach?

[rodheadlee]

Book of Mormon ties

Listed are what I believe to be ties to the Book of Mormon either through legend or culture.

An Ojibwa Indian Chief named Keeshkemun who succeeded his father to be chief is mentioned in Warrens book. Keeshkemun sounds strikingly familiar to Kishkumen the Gadianton leader and one of the cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon. In fact if you google Keeshkemun Kishumen will come up. Ojibwa have some of the highest haplo group x dna.

Mosiah 2:7

7 For the multitude being so great that king Benjamin could not teach them all within the walls of the temple, therefore he caused a tower to be erected, that thereby his people might hear the words which he should speak unto them.

“Professor Carr of its once having supported a building similar to the council-house observed by Bartram on a mound at the old Cherokee town Cowe. Both were built on mounds, both were circular, both were built on posts set in the ground at equal distances from each other, and each had a central pillar. As tending to confirm this statement of Bartram's, the following passage may be quoted, where, speaking of Colonel Christian's march against the Cherokee towns in 1770, Eamsey' says that this officer found in the center of each town ''a circular tower rudely built and covered with dirt, 30 feet in diameter, and about 20 feet high. This tower was used as a council-house… Mr. M. C. Bead, of Hudson, Ohio, discovered similar evidences in a mound near Chattanooga, and Mr. Gerard Fowke has quite recently found the same thing in a mound at Waverly, Ohio.”

(Thomas 1889 pg32)

This is a stretch but worth the effort. The Cherokee have a myth listed below. I would like to tie it to the Lamanite daughters who would go out to Shemlon to dance and make merry but are abducted by the priests of Noah and become their spouses. The Lamanites try to find the daughters and blame the Nephites for their disappearance which causes a war. This war continues until the Lamanites are told that the Nephites did not abduct the girls. The daughters stop the priests from being killed when they are found out.

“Allured by the haunting sound and diamond sparkle of a mountain stream, she wandered far up into a solitary glen, …..The dream picture of a fairyland was presently broken by the soft touch of a strange hand. The spirit of her dream occupied a place at her side, and, wooing, won her for his bride.

"Her supposed abduction caused great excitement among her people, who made

diligent search for her recovery in their own villages. Being unsuccessful, they

made war upon the neighboring tribes in the hope of finding the place of her concealment. Grieved because of so much bloodshed and sorrow, she besought the

great chief …..She appeared unto the chiefs in a dream(to stop the fighting),

(Mooney 1902 pg478)

The Saying Bury the Hatchet

    The Book of Mormon tells the history of the Anti Nephi’s a Lamanite people who no longer wanted to fight or kill other people. They made this covenant to God to longer fight by burying their weapons in the ground never to use them again even in the case of self-defense for themselves or for their family.

    The saying bury the hatchet comes from the Algonquin Indians of the Great Lakes area who also made peace by burying their weapons of war. As mentioned before I think the Hopewell Indians are the best candidate to be the Nephites for numerous reasons this is one of them.

    The first mention of the practice in English is to an actual hatchet-burying ceremony.

Years before he gained notoriety for presiding over the Salem witch trials, Samuel Sewall wrote in 1680, "I write to you in one [letter] of the Mischief the Mohawks did; which occasioned Major Pynchon's going to Albany, where meeting with the Sachem the[y] came to an agreement and buried two Axes in the Ground; one for English another for themselves; which ceremony to them is more significant & binding than all Articles of Peace[,] the hatchet being a principal weapon with them."

South Carolina and the Cherokee Nation 1785

    Treaty of Hopewell 1785, Keowee, South Carolina: signed by Col. Benjamin Hawkins, Gen. Andrew Pickens and Headman McIntosh, establishing the boundary of the Cherokee Nation. Use of the phrase 'Bury the Hatchet"? ARTICLE 13. The hatchet shall be forever buried, and the peace given by the United States, and friendship re-established between the said states on the one part, and all the Cherokees on the other, shall be universal; and the contracting parties shall use their utmost endeavors to maintain the peace given as aforesaid, and friendship re-established.

According to their own history the Great Walk to the Great Lakes did not take place until 900 AD. That leaves out any Great Lake scene for the BoM and the Great Lakes for the Ojibway as the original colony or landing point of Nephi . If you want to craft a Nephite community along the Atlantic Seaboard, go for it. I'd love to see the map. The Ojibway could certainly be migrants from the original Nephite or Lamanite colonies in Meso America. It's all very interesting and I think we will be amazed at how many people God did send to the New World and their migrations when we get the answers.

 

http://www.sagchip.org/ziibiwing/aboutus/history.htm

[Calm]

Interesting, Rod. Too bad Tom won't see this (though i am not suggesting he shouldnt have been banned). It would be interesting to see if he would dismiss this as he did everything else that disagreed with him (for example accept the identificatIon of haplotype by scientists, but reject their determination of the timing...a treatment regularly done by many Heartland proponents in my experience unfortunately).

Edited July 4, 2015 by calmoriah

[bcuzbcuz]

In this case, the way the story is told clearly tells me that it dates from the time when the translations of native materials were pushed into Romance forms. There are books on the collection and translation of native materials. The originals, if translated more literally, don't sound much like the way they were recorded.Material from myth and legend is very difficult to use and to correlate to history. That isn't saying that legends cannot encode history. They can and do. But it requires some work to make the case. Presenting the text and asserting a similarity is insufficient.

The parallel exists only when you don't actually examine it. That is the problem of false parallels--something that looks like it might be, but really isn't.

I agree completely, Brant. I worked amongst the Carrier-Sekani tribe of northern British Columbia for 8 years and recorded a great number of stories and tales. The elders took great delight in repeating stories whenever a group gathered. Stories were rated, not because of the story but by who told the story in the best and most entertaining way. Story A told by John may not be nearly as good as story A as told by Arthur. Details could be changed and often were, just to make the story a bit better.

The School District employed a teacher to record stories with the purpose of composing primary class story books for the young native students enrolled in the schools. The idea was great, but it failed to catch on or gain usage in the schools. When the local first nation leaders were asked for reasons, they responded that the English translations of the stories were incorrect. It turned out the translations were, for the most part, quite correct but the teacher who recorded them had "revised" certain parts of the stories to fit her preconceptions of how a story should be. She felt that a good story, like Aesops fables, should have a moral. And that stories "should make sense".

The first nation Carrier-Sekani stories, as told round the campfire, do not have a moral. The message was implied, not specifically stated. You either "got it" or you didn't.

And the stories did not need to "make sense". I'll give an example. One ancient story explained why there were always sticks floating down river from the lake after Spring ice break-up. The story told of the secret people who lived in the mountain by the lake and how they shot arrows out on the ice during the winter. So when you see the sticks in the Spring, you knew the mountain people had been busy. The sticks were the proof of the story.

The story, as published in the school books, told of the secret people who lived in caves in the mountain. The teacher who recorded the story thought , in order for the story to make sense, that these secret people would need a place to live, and therefore said they lived in caves. The native elders were very upset. They said the secret people did not live in caves, they lived in the mountain, period. Saying they lived in caves would mean that someone could go looking for caves and then find the secret people. And that wasn't possible.

Kipling's "Just So Stories" bear a strong resemblance to native stories. Native stories amuse and explain without any sense of trying to be logical. The Carrier-Sekani stories explain: Why the lynx has a black tip to its tail. How man came to live on the planet. Why dogs sniff other dogs rear ends. Why frogs can be dangerous, and many other important details of life. But as I mentioned previously, these stories can, and often do, change from story teller to story teller.

[ERayR]

Which Moroni's challenge would that be?

Moroni's challenge of walking all the way with the plates to upstate New York from Mesoamerica, so a 14-yr old boy in upstate New York would not have to walk all the way to Mesoamerica to get the plates?

Is practicality ruled out when in your priesthood classes you plan activities or determine the directions you should drive when visiting members you Home Teach?

 

Old Adage:

It is better to keep ones mouth shut and be thought a fool tha to open it and leave no doubt.

[Robert F. Smith]

Is that why the Mesoamerica Theory is supported?

Supported by whom?  The LDS Church supports no BofM geography theory.

 

Because it's irrelevant to the truth claims of the BoM?

No.  Because geography is irrelevant to salvation.