Bom Christ Visit To North American Indians

[Tom m]

Visitor/teacher/miracle worker “Christ”

Book of Mormon states that Jesus Christ after his resurrection visited the American Indians after great natural disasters among the Nephites. Christ taught the gospel showed the imprints in his hand and taught that them he was nailed to a across to bring all men unto him. He performed miracles among the people. Indian legends support this visit.

 

(Iroquois Legend)
“The visitor appeared very old man; he appeared among the people for awhile; he taught them many things ; how to respect their deceased friends, and to love their relations an he informed the people that the whites beyond the great water had killed their Maker, but he rose again;”(Cusick 1838 pg31)

 

( Gaspesian/MikMaq proposed Nephite descendents legend of a beautiful person who in a time turmoil visited them. He taught them and performed miracles. He showed them the imprints in his hands from the being hung on the cross and taught them that he was put on the cross to bring all men unto him. The sleep mentioned in the quote would make sense during the three days of darkness mentioned in 3Nephi. The cross mentioned in the quote is the Greek style cross (not to be confused with the evangelical cross) this is a sacred symbol found on Hopewell artifacts. The MikMaq Indians also held the Greek style cross as holy long before missionaries ever arrived to America.)
"They claim that, at a time when their country was afflicted with a very dangerous and deadly malady which had reduced them to an extreme destitution in every respect and had already sent many of them to their graves, certain old men of those whom they considered the best, the wisest, and the most influential, fell asleep, all overwhelmed with weariness and despair at seeing a desolation so general and the impending ruin of the entire Gaspesian nation, unless it should promptly be rescued through the powerful aid of the sun, which they recognized, as we have already said, as their deity. It was, say they, in this sleep filled with bitterness that a man, beautiful as could be, appeared to them with a Cross in his hand. He told them to take heart, to go back to their homes, to make Crosses like that which were shown them, and to present these to the heads of families with the assurance that if they would receive the Crosses with respect they would find these without question the remedy for all their ills. And so it turned out in fact, for the sickness ended, and all the afflicted who used the Cross with respect were restored miraculously to health. In this they were more happy"
(Clercq 1680 pg172)

 

(Gaspesian/Mik Maq Indian Father Clercq believed that the Indians were taught the belief of the cross by previous missionaries the Gaspesian Indians said differently)
"one day to make these pagans admit that the missionaries who
had preceded me had taught them the manner in which they
ought to worship the Cross, the leading person said to me,
"Well, now, thou art a Patriarch. Thou wishest that we
believe everything that thou tellest us, but thou art not
willing to believe that which we tell thee. Thou art not
yet forty years old and for only two hast thou dwelt with
the Indians ; and yet thou pretendest to know our
maxims, our traditions, and our customs better than our
ancestors who have taught them to us. Dost thou not still
see every day the old man Quioudo, who is more than a
hundred and twenty years old : He saw the first ship which
landed in our country. He has repeated to thee often that
the Indians of Mizamichis have not received from strangers
the use of the Cross, and that his own knowledge of it has
been derived through tradition from his fathers, who lived
for at least as long a time as he."
( Clercq 1680 pg 191)

[Brant Gardner]

These legends have structural similarities to the Quetzalcoatl cycle in the hands of the Spanish. Better evidence suggests that it was the Spanish who made them so Christian, and the same forces appear to have produced similar results in the texts you are listing. Unfortunately, we don't have the volume of data for the early Northeast that we do for Mexico, so it is harder to clear up.

However, note that in your Iroquois legend that we have a very old man. That doesn't fit the Book of Mormon story at all.

[Tom m]

Quetzalcoatl is a feathered serpent how does that relate to Jesus. At least in the Iroquois legend this visitor is still human. Which the Iroquois legend has similarities and specific that match then the quetzalcoatl legend.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Tom m

[ERayR]

Quetzalcoatl is a feathered serpent how does that relate to Jesus.

 

I know you have read a little bit and think you have all the answers but if you can not answer your own question your are sadly lacking information.  Hint: Place to start - Old Testament.  Read about the House of Israel's sojourn in the wilderness.

[Tom m]

I know you have read a little bit and think you have all the answers but if you can not answer your own question your are sadly lacking information.  Hint: Place to start - Old Testament.  Read about the House of Israel's sojourn in the wilderness.

I know what your saying but the North American beliefs are more specific and are better fit. Since its been found out recently that Hopewell Indians had jaguar teeth, metallurgy, matching timelines, and artifacts its more likely that Quetzocotle is derived from Hopewell Indians who travelled down south to trade jaguar teeth then the other way around. The truth is hard but we have to adapt to change when the evidence presents it self otherwise we would not have cars but horse and buggies.

[Calm]

You are misunderstanding Brant's argument if you think he was arguing for a connection.

 

 

Demonstrates you aren't that familiar with Mesoamerican arguments.

[Brant Gardner]

I know what your saying but the North American beliefs are more specific and are better fit. Since its been found out recently that Hopewell Indians had jaguar teeth, metallurgy, matching timelines, and artifacts its more likely that Quetzocotle is derived from Hopewell Indians who travelled down south to trade jaguar teeth then the other way around. The truth is hard but we have to adapt to change when the evidence presents it self otherwise we would not have cars but horse and buggies.

I know I have no chance of convincing you, but to anyone else who is reading this--it is categorically incorrect that Quetzalcoatl derived from the Hopewell. There are some ideas related to serpents that have a complicated history and may represent a very old layer of shamanic religion, but no indication that anything related to the Quetzalcoatl cycle moved from north to south--not even with the Chichimeca. The Aztecs demonstrably inherited the iconography and basic mythology after arriving in Mexico. They did not bring it with them.

[ERayR]

I know what your saying but the North American beliefs are more specific and are better fit. Since its been found out recently that Hopewell Indians had jaguar teeth, metallurgy, matching timelines, and artifacts its more likely that Quetzocotle is derived from Hopewell Indians who travelled down south to trade jaguar teeth then the other way around. The truth is hard but we have to adapt to change when the evidence presents it self otherwise we would not have cars but horse and buggies.

 

I will grant that from your perspective you think you have a solid case for you conclusions.  From my perspective(and I have seen and heard all this stuff you are posting)I see that you either have not read any other perspective or you refuse to entertain anything else.

 

Frankly I don't care what believe about BoM geography.  It is irrelevant to the truth claims of the BoM. 

[rodheadlee]

 

 

(Iroquois Legend)

“The visitor appeared very old man; he appeared among the people for awhile; he taught them many things ; how to respect their deceased friends, and to love their relations an he informed the people that the whites beyond the great water had killed their Maker, but he rose again;”(Cusick 1838 pg31)

 

 

This probably Moroni come to bury the plates after wandering for 30 years, bringing the plates up from Mexico.

[Tom m]

They are talking about Christ not Moroni. I will add that Iroquois said they killed off a Caucasian race of Indians who sailed here from another country and lived in forts. Why can't you guys see this. Look where Joseph smith found the plates and where the last battles were on top of the Hill Cumorah. The Iroquois who said all this had New York as their territory.

holy cow

[Tom m]

I will grant that from your perspective you think you have a solid case for you conclusions.  From my perspective(and I have seen and heard all this stuff you are posting)I see that you either have not read any other perspective or you refuse to entertain anything else.

 

Frankly I don't care what believe about BoM geography.  It is irrelevant to the truth claims of the BoM.

I agree 100 percent the only advantage to this is when you study the Book of Mormon from this geography point the Book from a historical point makes more sense and you have an idea of who who and where exact locations are located and what the breast plates and woven cloth looked liked since we have those artifacts.

[ERayR]

They are talking about Christ not Moroni. I will add that Iroquois said they killed off a Caucasian race of Indians who sailed here from another country and lived in forts. Why can't you guys see this. Look where Joseph smith found the plates and where the last battles were on top of the Hill Cumorah. The Iroquois who said all this had New York as their territory.

holy cow

 

Christ was not an old man.  That it was he is from your own interpretation of the story.  Some of us seem to have a lot more information than you seem to be willing to accept.

[ERayR]

I agree 100 percent the only advantage to this is when you study the Book of Mormon from this geography point the Book from a historical point makes more sense and you have an idea of who who and where exact locations are located and what the breast plates and woven cloth looked liked since we have those artifacts.

 

I don't agree with this.

[Tom m]

Compared To Quetzalcoatl it's a better match and beliefs passed down over several hundred years will not be perfect

Edited July 4, 2015 by Tom m

[Tom m]

I don't agree with this.

I don't agree with this.

I'm speaking from my own perspective

[Calm]

A better match than a bad match isn't necessarily a good match.

[amo]

I was shown the following statement by pres, Taylor, regarding Quetzalcoatl. Has any 1 heard of it before ?

 

AN EXAMINATION INTO AND AN ELUCIDATION OF THE GREAT PRINCIPLE OF THE MEDIATION AND ATONEMENT OF Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
BY PRESIDENT JOHN TAYLOR.

SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH:
Deseret News Publishing Co,, Printers and Pqblishers.
1892.

The story of the life of the Mexican divinity,
Quetzalcoatl, closely resembles that of the Savior; so
closely, indeed, that we can come to no other conclusion
than that Quetzalcoatl and Christ are the same being.
But the history of the former has been handed down
to us through an impure Lamanitish source, which has
sadly disfigured and perverted the original incidents and
teachings of the Saviors life and ministry.

Edited July 10, 2015 by amo

[ERayR]

I was shown the following statement by pres, Taylor, regarding Quetzalcoatl. Has any 1 heard of it before ?

 

AN EXAMINATION INTO AND AN ELUCIDATION OF THE GREAT PRINCIPLE OF THE MEDIATION AND ATONEMENT OF Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

BY PRESIDENT JOHN TAYLOR.

SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH:

Deseret News Publishing Co,, Printers and Pqblishers.

1892.

The story of the life of the Mexican divinity,

Quetzalcoatl, closely resembles that of the Savior; so

closely, indeed, that we can come to no other conclusion

than that Quetzalcoatl and Christ are the same being.

But the history of the former has been handed down

to us through an impure Lamanitish source, which has

sadly disfigured and perverted the original incidents and

teachings of the Saviors life and ministry.

 

What point are you trying to make?

[amo]

 

I was shown the following statement by pres, Taylor, regarding Quetzalcoatl. Has any 1 heard of it before ?

 

AN EXAMINATION INTO AND AN ELUCIDATION OF THE GREAT PRINCIPLE OF THE MEDIATION AND ATONEMENT OF Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

BY PRESIDENT JOHN TAYLOR.

SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH:

Deseret News Publishing Co,, Printers and Pqblishers.

1892.

The story of the life of the Mexican divinity,

Quetzalcoatl, closely resembles that of the Savior; so

closely, indeed, that we can come to no other conclusion

than that Quetzalcoatl and Christ are the same being.

But the history of the former has been handed down

to us through an impure Lamanitish source, which has

sadly disfigured and perverted the original incidents and

teachings of the Saviors life and ministry.

 

What point are you trying to make?

 

Not trying to make any point at all. I just want to know if any 1 has ever read this comment & how reliable it is.

 

Have you ?

 

amo

[Brant Gardner]

Not trying to make any point at all. I just want to know if any 1 has ever read this comment & how reliable it is.

 

Have you ?

 

amo

Yes. I use it to open my discussion of the Quetzalcoatl materials in my book due out in a couple of weeks.

[amo]

 

Not trying to make any point at all. I just want to know if any 1 has ever read this comment & how reliable it is.

 

Have you ?

 

amo

Yes. I use it to open my discussion of the Quetzalcoatl materials in my book due out in a couple of weeks.

 

Hey, thanks.

I wouldn't like to spoil it, but would it be possible to have a bit of a scoop on the subject before your book gets out, book that I'll love to get a hand on ? Such as how much weight should it be given, since in this case, it comes from the prophet ?

 

amo

Edited July 11, 2015 by amo

[Bob Crockett]

A better match than a bad match isn't necessarily a good match.

 Holy cow, you've demolished Dr. Sorenson's exact argument.

[Brant Gardner]

Hey, thanks.

I wouldn't like to spoil it, but would it be possible to have a bit of a scoop on the subject before your book gets out, book that I'll love to get a hand on ? Such as how much weight should it be given, since in this case, it comes from the prophet ?

The key is understanding the kind of evidence that would have been shown to him. There is a large literature from the early Spanish Fathers suggesting that St. Thomas (who legend said went to India to preach--and these were Indians!!) was the model for Quetzalcoatl. All of the seemingly Christian material that John Taylor would have seen is predicated on the St. Thomas cycle--which is already a distortion of the native mythology. The greater context and wider set of data needed to demonstrate that fact were not available to him.

So this is one where you see him operating as a regular human with access to a particular set of data. Based on what he had seen, it was a reasonable conclusion. It was not a prophetic pronouncement. It was also wrong. We just didn't understand why and how until much later.

[amo]

 

Hey, thanks.

I wouldn't like to spoil it, but would it be possible to have a bit of a scoop on the subject before your book gets out, book that I'll love to get a hand on ? Such as how much weight should it be given, since in this case, it comes from the prophet ?

The key is understanding the kind of evidence that would have been shown to him. There is a large literature from the early Spanish Fathers suggesting that St. Thomas (who legend said went to India to preach--and these were Indians!!) was the model for Quetzalcoatl. All of the seemingly Christian material that John Taylor would have seen is predicated on the St. Thomas cycle--which is already a distortion of the native mythology. The greater context and wider set of data needed to demonstrate that fact were not available to him.

So this is one where you see him operating as a regular human with access to a particular set of data. Based on what he had seen, it was a reasonable conclusion. It was not a prophetic pronouncement. It was also wrong. We just didn't understand why and how until much later.

 

And would you happen to know of any official declaration / statement that may invalidate or "overrule" his, since it was given while he was the prophet ?

 

Thanks again,

amo

[Brant Gardner]

And would you happen to know of any official declaration / statement that may invalidate or "overrule" his, since it was given while he was the prophet ?

No, but why would we need one?