stemelbow Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) No. It's just that I actually thought posting here made a difference. Repeating the same thing over and again is rather pointless, don't you think? And why pray tell do YOU post the same thing "every time I see this lamentation"? Or for that matter every time YOU are on the board? egads, man, don't you go to Church? And yet you feel like repetition here hard to handle? Edited June 18, 2015 by stemelbow
mfbukowski Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 I have argued that a long time. We do not KNOW....we BELIEVE. To "know" means there is no need for faith. I know the tree outside my window is brown and green. I do not need to exercise any faith regarding the colors of the tree. So, I have worked diligently, since regaining my testimony, to NOT say "I know", but "I believe" or "I have a testimony of...."An excellent point. So clearly the term we pick depends upon our personal understanding of a very vague word, "know". I say "know" because I feel I do "know" So whether we say "know" or "believe" is personal preference. Philosophers have debated literally for thousands of years about the difference between "know" and "believe" and I can give references if anyone cares. So as a matter of preference, it is about as important as if one prefers vanilla or chocolate. 1
mfbukowski Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 If the "we" is meant to be people in general (which is how I read it), even nicer would be the result that there would be no confusion about it among members in generalAgreed. Therefore what do we do?
mfbukowski Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 egads, man, don't you go to Church? And yet you feel like repetition here hard to handle?I find ritual edifying. This ain't ritual. But enough about that.
stemelbow Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 I find ritual edifying. This ain't ritual. But enough about that. I didn't mean that in terms of ritual but in terms of topics discussed.
ttribe Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 No. It's just that I actually thought posting here made a difference. Repeating the same thing over and again is rather pointless, don't you think? And why pray tell do YOU post the same thing "every time I see this lamentation"? Or for that matter every time YOU are on the board? I don't.
mfbukowski Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 I didn't mean that in terms of ritual but in terms of topics discussed.I knowTo me that is ritual. It is comforting, eternal and unchanging. 2
Boanerges Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 I apologize for such a long post, but our General Authorities have continued to regularly use the word "know" in a witnessing context. Just some samples from the last General Conference: I know that through the enabling power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ and our faith in Him, we can do it. I pray we will put our trust in Him to help us help each other live happily and eternally as we ascend together, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/well-ascend-together?lang=eng “If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. “But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.”https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/choose-to-believe?lang=eng My purpose is to describe how fear is dispelled through a correct knowledge of and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ…https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/therefore-they-hushed-their-fears?lang=eng Whatever the details of the creation process, we know that it was not accidental but that it was directed by God the Father and implemented by Jesus Christ—“all things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” Knowing why we left the presence of our Heavenly Father and what it takes to return and be exalted with Him, it becomes very clear that nothing relative to our time on earth can be more important than physical birth and spiritual rebirth, the two prerequisites of eternal life.https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/why-marriage-why-family?lang=eng For those who feel they are alone, you can stand resolutely in righteousness knowing that the Atonement will protect and bless you beyond your ability to fully understand. On this Easter weekend, as one of the Savior’s Apostles, I bear solemn witness of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. I know He lives. I know His voice. I testify of His divinity and the reality of the Atonement in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-lord-is-my-light?lang=eng We need vibrant, thinking, passionate young adults who know how to listen and respond to the whisperings of the Holy Spirit as you make your way through the daily trials and temptations of being a young, contemporary Latter-day Saint. Brethren, we know that God our Father and His Beloved Son appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith and restored through him the fulness of the everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ.https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-greatest-generation-of-young-adults?lang=eng Then the Lord, in His infinite mercy, “will manifest the truth unto [us], by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost [we] may know the truth of all things.” This knowledge acquired through the Holy Ghost is nothing more than our testimony*, which propels our faith and determination to follow the teachings of the restored gospel in these latter days, regardless of the popular messages we hear from the world.https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/yes-we-can-and-will-win?lang=eng *which is borne in virtually every talkI know that Heavenly Father is concerned about each of us individually and has a personal plan for us to achieve our eternal destiny. He has sent His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, to help us overcome our imperfections through the Atonement. He has blessed us with the Holy Ghost to be a witness, companion, and guide to our eternal destination if we will rely on Him. May we each enjoy the fulness of Father’s blessings in this life and the fulfillment of His work and His glory by becoming fathers to our families for eternity (see Moses 1:39). In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/fatherhood-our-eternal-destiny?lang=eng I know something of the trust that the Lord has placed in you. But think of the day when you must know what God would say and what He would do. It has already come for us all—wherever you are in your calling in the priesthood. I had to know, as God’s servant, what He would do and say. You will need to know what God would have you do to help them and to do it all, as nearly as you can, feeling God’s love for them We know this from the Lord’s parable of the laborers in the vineyard, where the pay was the same regardless of how long they served or where.https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/priesthood-and-personal-prayer?lang=eng “They had waxed strong in the knowledge of the truth; for they were men of a sound understanding and they had searched the scriptures diligently, that they might know the word of God.”https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-priesthood-a-sacred-gift?lang=eng There is no blessing more precious to me than the peace and comfort I receive from the knowledge I have that she and I will be together again.https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/blessings-of-the-temple?lang=eng ‘Focus on what you know.’ “Here are truths I love. I can still bear testimony. I will just say those things that I know and trust. It may not be a perfect offering of knowledge, but it will be my offering. What I focus on expands inside of me. It is beautiful to get back to the essence of the gospel and feel clarity.” I was also reminded of the counsel of Elder Jeffrey R. Holland: “Hold fast to what you already know and stand strong until additional knowledge comes.”https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/returning-to-faith?lang=eng I know by personal experience that the joy of living in righteousness and abiding in Christ can continue despite the tribulations characteristic of mortality. We have the means to know Him better and to live His gospel.https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/seeking-the-lord?lang=eng We should hunger and thirst every day after spiritual knowledge. But the gospel is a fountain of knowledge that never runs dry. There is always something new to learn and feel each Sunday, in every meeting, and in every verse of scripture. That we may always have eyes that see, ears that hear, and hearts that perceive the wonders of this marvelous gospel is my prayer in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/is-it-still-wonderful-to-you?lang=eng May you and I receive the revelation to know how to best approach those in our lives who are lost and, when necessary, to have the patience and love of our Father in Heaven and His Son, Jesus Christ, as we love, watch, and wait for the prodigal. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/waiting-for-the-prodigal?lang=eng I do not know the details of what happened on this planet before that, but I do know these two were created under the divine hand of God, that for a time they lived alone in a paradisiacal setting where there was neither human death nor future family, and that through a sequence of choices they transgressed a commandment of God which required that they leave their garden setting but which allowed them to have children before facing physical death.https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/where-justice-love-and-mercy-meet?lang=eng In Jacob’s words, “Why not speak of the atonement of Christ, and attain to a perfect knowledge of him?” we grow from the flawed and limited beings we are now into exalted beings of “truth and light, until [we are] glorified in truth and [know] all things.” Even so, we should know about God’s grace if we intend to inherit what has been prepared for us in His eternal kingdom. “We labor diligently … to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” I pray that we will see with new eyes and a new heart the eternal significance of the Savior’s atoning sacrifice.https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-gift-of-grace?lang=eng To keep the commandments, we need to know the official doctrine of the Church so we are not diverted from Christ’s leadership by the ever-changing whims of individuals.https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/preserving-agency-protecting-religious-freedom?lang=eng I bear witness of the resurrected, living Christ. I know that He lives. My greatest desire is that I will be true and faithful to the very end in following His magnificent example. In the sacred name of the Lord Jesus Christ, amen.https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/stay-by-the-tree?lang=eng I testify that we have a loving, just, and merciful Heavenly Father, who has prepared a plan for our eternal happiness. I testify that Jesus Christ is His Son and the Savior of the world. I know that President Thomas S. Monson is a prophet of God. I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-eternal-perspective-of-the-gospel?lang=eng However, we know that the path that leads to the “tree, whose fruit [is] desirable to make one happy”7 —“the way, which leadeth unto life”—is narrow. It takes effort to journey along the path, and “few there be that find it.” We know that the Atonement of Jesus Christ is essential to receiving forgiveness for our sins…https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/if-you-will-be-responsible?lang=eng Now, as this conference comes to a close, we know that wherever we live we are to be examples of the believers among our families, neighbors, and friends.https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-sabbath-is-a-delight?lang=eng I'm not going to argue with your quotes, that's not what I do. Nevertheless, my reading comprehension seems to be different from yours - I still see the General Authorities rarely using the word "know" in the contest of "I know the church is true." (FWIW, and no offense intended, I don't consider auxiliary presidents to be GAs.)
ERayR Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) I have argued that a long time. We do not KNOW....we BELIEVE. To "know" means there is no need for faith. I know the tree outside my window is brown and green. I do not need to exercise any faith regarding the colors of the tree. So, I have worked diligently, since regaining my testimony, to NOT say "I know", but "I believe" or "I have a testimony of...." Speak for yourself. There are some who know and some who believe and sadly some who are still waiting. Edited June 18, 2015 by ERayR
CV75 Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 I'm not going to argue with your quotes, that's not what I do. Nevertheless, my reading comprehension seems to be different from yours - I still see the General Authorities rarely using the word "know" in the contest of "I know the church is true." (FWIW, and no offense intended, I don't consider auxiliary presidents to be GAs.)No offense taken. My most rudimentary reading comprehension shows that the GAs do use "I know" in that same context. from the quotes i listed earlier: I know that through the enabling power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ and our faith in Him, we can do it. Whatever the details of the creation process, we know that it was not accidental but that it was directed by God the Father and implemented by Jesus Christ On this Easter weekend, as one of the Savior’s Apostles, I bear solemn witness of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. I know He lives. I know His voice. I testify of His divinity and the reality of the Atonement in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. Brethren, we know that God our Father and His Beloved Son appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith and restored through him the fulness of the everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ. I know that Heavenly Father is concerned about each of us individually and has a personal plan for us to achieve our eternal destiny. He has sent His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, to help us overcome our imperfections through the Atonement. He has blessed us with the Holy Ghost to be a witness, companion, and guide to our eternal destination if we will rely on Him. May we each enjoy the fulness of Father’s blessings in this life and the fulfillment of His work and His glory by becoming fathers to our families for eternity (see Moses 1:39). In the name of Jesus Christ, amen. I had to know, as God’s servant, what He would do and say. You will need to know what God would have you do to help them and to do it all, as nearly as you can, feeling God’s love for them There is no blessing more precious to me than the peace and comfort I receive from the knowledge I have that she and I will be together again. I was also reminded of the counsel of Elder Jeffrey R. Holland: “Hold fast to what you already know and stand strong until additional knowledge comes.” I know by personal experience that the joy of living in righteousness and abiding in Christ can continue despite the tribulations characteristic of mortality. We have the means to know Him better and to live His gospel. I do not know the details of what happened on this planet before that, but I do know these two were created under the divine hand of God, that for a time they lived alone in a paradisiacal setting where there was neither human death nor future family, and that through a sequence of choices they transgressed a commandment of God which required that they leave their garden setting but which allowed them to have children before facing physical death. I bear witness of the resurrected, living Christ. I know that He lives. My greatest desire is that I will be true and faithful to the very end in following His magnificent example. In the sacred name of the Lord Jesus Christ, amen.I testify that we have a loving, just, and merciful Heavenly Father, who has prepared a plan for our eternal happiness. I testify that Jesus Christ is His Son and the Savior of the world. I know that President Thomas S. Monson is a prophet of God. I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. We know that the Atonement of Jesus Christ is essential to receiving forgiveness for our sins… ----I also think a more nuanced comprehension would allow that a witness, assurance and testimony is an expression of knowledge. A charitable sensitivity toward individuals' perceptions of nuances and exactness is what your Stake President seems to be encouraging, not that spiritual knowledge is now subject to word-mincing. Do you have a hard analysis to share of how the use of the term "I know [the church is true]" by the GAs in this context has changed over the years? I just haven't gotten that impression.
UtahTexan Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) Speak for yourself. There are some who know and some who believe and sadly some who are still waiting. I was speaking for me. and I am glad you no longer need faith and have a perfect knowledge of it all. So...can you tell me where Zerehemla is? I would love to go see it. Edited June 18, 2015 by CountryBoy
ERayR Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 I was speaking for me. and I am glad you no longer need faith and have a perfect knowledge of it all. So...can you tell me where Zerehemla is? I would love to go see it. Who said anything about knowing it all? I can know some things without knowing others. What I know has absolutely no effect on what you or someone else might or might not know.
UtahTexan Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 Who said anything about knowing it all? I can know some things without knowing others. What I know has absolutely no effect on what you or someone else might or might not know. To KNOW the Church is true would then mean you know all the things that could make it untrue. So, by correcting me re: "knowing", you must "know", right? Or perhaps you just "believe"? 1
ERayR Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 To KNOW the Church is true would then mean you know all the things that could make it untrue. So, by correcting me re: "knowing", you must "know", right? Or perhaps you just "believe"? First, the church is the framework to carry the gospel to the world and administer the saving ordinances. My testimony is of the gospel and the saving ordinances. I have received spiritual manifestation of enough of it that I can know it is true. I can not speak for you as to your degree of knowing or believing and I would ask you to not try to interpret the depths of my knowledge and feelings about what I know or maybe only believe and I will not question the depths of yours. Peace be with you my brother. 1
UtahTexan Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 First, the church is the framework to carry the gospel to the world and administer the saving ordinances. My testimony is of the gospel and the saving ordinances. I have received spiritual manifestation of enough of it that I can know it is true. I can not speak for you as to your degree of knowing or believing and I would ask you to not try to interpret the depths of my knowledge and feelings about what I know or maybe only believe and I will not question the depths of yours. Peace be with you my brother. Peace to you as well. Again, knowing is knowledge. As an attorney, words mean something me. Based on your answer, it is clear you believe strongly. I am glad. So do I
ERayR Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 Peace to you as well. Again, knowing is knowledge. As an attorney, words mean something me. Based on your answer, it is clear you believe strongly. I am glad. So do I As an attorney you must know that One doesn't have to know all things to know some things.
Bobbieaware Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 To KNOW the Church is true would then mean you know all the things that could make it untrue. So, by correcting me re: "knowing", you must "know", right? Or perhaps you just "believe"?If you had the chance for a private meeting and there would be no negative consequences, would you be willing to correct the members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve who have publicly testified they know the church is true? Or do you think, in their case, they really do know the church is true?
UtahTexan Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 As an attorney you must know that One doesn't have to know all things to know some things. Not true. I never KNOW unless I know. I never say, as an attorney, I "KNOW" unless I am holding the proof in my hands. I never say "I know my client is telling the truth". I say, "I believe my client".
UtahTexan Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 If you had the chance for a private meeting and there would be no negative consequences, would you be willing to correct the members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve who have publicly testified they know the church is true? Or do you think, in their case, they really do know the church is true? I would ask them to define "knowing". If they KNOW, then I would expect them to have all the answers...all the proof. The only way to completely know is to have the evidence in your hand or to have personally seen it. I am moving to Utah in 2 weeks to finally be with my wife. I believe that is where God wants me. I do not have a job in Utah. I am leaving a 6-figure income and going to where I have no job. I do not KNOW I will find employment...but I BELIEVE God will provide. I have 25 years experience. I am a military officer. I am a former city councilman. With those qualifications, I could say, I KNOW I am getting a job. But I really don't. I believe I will. I have faith God will provide.
ERayR Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 Not true. I never KNOW unless I know. I never say, as an attorney, I "KNOW" unless I am holding the proof in my hands. I never say "I know my client is telling the truth". I say, "I believe my client". But your client may say he saw the gun. That much he knows. Who used it and how and on who your client may not have seen therefore to these things he may have an opinion but that would only be belief. One thing he knows others he only believes.
Bobbieaware Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 Not true. I never KNOW unless I know. I never say, as an attorney, I "KNOW" unless I am holding the proof in my hands. I never say "I know my client is telling the truth". I say, "I believe my client".In light of Moroni's challenge, I'm wondering if a member of the church could receive a revelation from God that the Book of Mormon is true and actually know they had received a revelation? Or would that member only be justified in saying they only believe the had received a revelation that the Book of Mormon is true?
ERayR Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 I would ask them to define "knowing". If they KNOW, then I would expect them to have all the answers...all the proof. The only way to completely know is to have the evidence in your hand or to have personally seen it. I am moving to Utah in 2 weeks to finally be with my wife. I believe that is where God wants me. I do not have a job in Utah. I am leaving a 6-figure income and going to where I have no job. I do not KNOW I will find employment...but I BELIEVE God will provide. I have 25 years experience. I am a military officer. I am a former city councilman. With those qualifications, I could say, I KNOW I am getting a job. But I really don't. I believe I will. I have faith God will provide. You know you have good credentials you believe they should be sufficient.
Bobbieaware Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 I would ask them to define "knowing". If they KNOW, then I would expect them to have all the answers...all the proof. The only way to completely know is to have the evidence in your hand or to have personally seen it. I am moving to Utah in 2 weeks to finally be with my wife. I believe that is where God wants me. I do not have a job in Utah. I am leaving a 6-figure income and going to where I have no job. I do not KNOW I will find employment...but I BELIEVE God will provide. I have 25 years experience. I am a military officer. I am a former city councilman. With those qualifications, I could say, I KNOW I am getting a job. But I really don't. I believe I will. I have faith God will provide.There's a big difference between a hard-copy of the Book of Mormon in someone's hand and a theoretical job offer that has not yet been made.
Shizfan Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 I have argued that a long time. We do not KNOW....we BELIEVE. To "know" means there is no need for faith. I know the tree outside my window is brown and green. I do not need to exercise any faith regarding the colors of the tree. So, I have worked diligently, since regaining my testimony, to NOT say "I know", but "I believe" or "I have a testimony of...."This is a good point. But what about Jospeh Smith who actually saw god the father and Jesus Christ? Does he from then on say, "I believe I saw Jesus Christ" or does he say he knows because it no longer requires faith? Can we receive a witness that we can then say we know and that then wouldn't require faith?
UtahTexan Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 But your client may say he saw the gun. That much he knows. Who used it and how and on who your client may not have seen therefore to these things he may have an opinion but that would only be belief. One thing he knows others he only believes. If my client saw the gun, he HE might know...I do not. I can choose to believe him or not...but I cannot KNOW the person he saw had a gun. Now....in the case of the Church.....what can you KNOW? That it has buildings, temples, men in charge. Anything else is a belief. A strong one, maybe....but it is not perfect knowledge....
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