Scott Lloyd Posted April 9, 2015 Author Posted April 9, 2015 Not crazy, different. We're all different and we all react differently to different things. To some it wasn't he essays the caused their crises of faith. To others it was. And to many others there was no crises to deal with.So it strikes me as unrealistic for the Church to publish essays that are guaranteed to bother no one. Candor, honesty and thoroughness served up with reasonable perspective are the best that can be hoped for. 1
rockpond Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 So you're saying that conference talks or published essays cannot be taken seriously unless an author is willing to engage in a public back and forth with critics and carpers? That makes no sense. Wow... you are obsessed with critics. I'm not even talking about critics. I'm not concerned with them. I'm concerned with members of the church. Not all of us are engaged in this battle vs. nameless critics like you.
stemelbow Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 So it strikes me as unrealistic for the Church to publish essays that are guaranteed to bother no one. Candor, honesty and thoroughness served up with reasonable perspective are the best that can be hoped for. I very much agree with you on this.
Scott Lloyd Posted April 9, 2015 Author Posted April 9, 2015 He doesn't have any burden of proof against false assertions. He has the burden of proof for his own claims: "The number of members removing their names from the records of the Church has always been very small and is significantly less in recent years than in the past. The increase in demonstrably measurable areas, such as endowed members with a current temple recommend, adult full-tithe payers, and those serving missions, has been dramatic." Now, it was a conference talk and so I don't think he's obligated to do anything. But if you are going to say that anonymous "naysayers" have a burden of proof for their claims. The same applies to him.If their claims are vacuous -- and it would appear that they are, as they haven't substantiated them -- a denial of those claims is all that can reasonably be expected.
ALarson Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 Why make a claim if you can't substantiate it? That strikes me malicious gossip and rumor mongering.What about the claims that Elder Jensen made?
rockpond Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 So it strikes me as unrealistic for the Church to publish essays that are guaranteed to bother no one. Candor, honesty and thoroughness served up with reasonable perspective are the best that can be hoped for. Of course. But could we improve? Yes.
Scott Lloyd Posted April 9, 2015 Author Posted April 9, 2015 Wow... you are obsessed with critics. I'm not even talking about critics. I'm not concerned with them. I'm concerned with members of the church. Not all of us are engaged in this battle vs. nameless critics like you.On the contrary. It is you who seems to be calling for the Church leaders to engage in a public back-and-forth with them. It's fine with me if the Brethren ignore them.
Scott Lloyd Posted April 9, 2015 Author Posted April 9, 2015 What about the claims that Elder Jensen made? His statements are by way of contradicting the gossip and rumor mongering. I see nothing malicious about that.
rockpond Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 On the contrary. It is you who seems to be calling for the Church leaders to engage in a public back-and-forth with them. It's fine with me if the Brethren ignore them. Then will you stop bringing up "critics" in your responses? I actually have not suggested the the Church leaders engage with the critics. Not at all. I don't think they should be concerned with them at all. I'm good with them ignoring critics. Clear enough?
ALarson Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 His statements are by way of contradicting the gossip and rumor mongering. I see nothing malicious about that.Seems to me that his statements agreed with "the gossip and rumor mongering" about people leaving rather than contradicting it. 1
rockpond Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 (edited) If their claims are vacuous -- and it would appear that they are, as they haven't substantiated them -- a denial of those claims is all that can reasonably be expected. And Elder Cook hasn't substantiated his claims either. So I guess these critics that you cite will just dismiss them as well. Round and round we go. Edited April 9, 2015 by rockpond
Scott Lloyd Posted April 9, 2015 Author Posted April 9, 2015 Seems to me that his statements agreed with "the gossip and rumor mongering" about people leaving rather than contradicting it.Sorry, but I can't make sense of this. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted April 9, 2015 Author Posted April 9, 2015 And Elder Cook hasn't substantiated his claims either. So I guess these critics that you cite will just dismiss them as well. Round and round we go.For now, it is quite enough to deny claims that had no substance to them in the first place.
ALarson Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 (edited) Sorry, but I can't make sense of this.Really? You said that Elder Jensen's comments contradicted the "gossip and rumor mongering". In reality, his statements confirmed that the rumors about people leaving the church were true. Edited April 9, 2015 by ALarson
ALarson Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 For now, it is quite enough to deny claims that had no substance to them in the first place.Which claims? Elder Jensen's or Elder Cook's?
ALarson Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 And Elder Cook hasn't substantiated his claims either. So I guess these critics that you cite will just dismiss them as well. Round and round we go.I think this is where we're at. At least until some stats are released.
Scott Lloyd Posted April 9, 2015 Author Posted April 9, 2015 Really? You said that Elder Jensen's comments contradicted the "gossip and rumor mongering". In reality, his statements confirmed that the rumors about people leaving the church were true.Your restatement does not make any more sense than your original statement. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted April 9, 2015 Author Posted April 9, 2015 (edited) Which claims? Elder Jensen's or Elder Cook's?Ah yes. And you're not pitting the two against each other. Nope. Nosiree. Edited April 9, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
Teancum Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 If I were the Lord, I would command the General Authorities to not reveal the statistical evidence that would back up the assertion that the Church is stronger than ever. It will be a very bad thing if the Church leaders start down the road of trying to placate the critics, skeptics and sign-seekers with evidence, because no amount of evidence will ever be enough for those who don't want to believe and who get carnal pleasure out of harassing the prophets and the faithful. The doubters will continue to question everything and demand more and more information, but because their hearts are hardened no amount of information will ever be enough. Seeing the rotting corpse of Lazarus rise from the dead with their own eyes wasn't enough for the sign seekers of the Lord's day and similar displays of evidence will not be enough for the willful doubters of the last days. When faith is absent, sin lies in wait at the door. For those who will not believe until the acceptable day of the Lord is over, they will eventually have all the evidence they could want, but it will be revealed unto their condemnation. Good thing you are not God. So I will ask you... why is faith the penultimate principle of all self proclaimed revealed religions?
Scott Lloyd Posted April 9, 2015 Author Posted April 9, 2015 I think this is where we're at. At least until some stats are released.So before, we had unsubstantiated gossip and rumor holding sway to a degree. Now we have a more-or-less official denial of the gossip and rumor. I'd call that a net plus.
ALarson Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 Your restatement does not make any more sense than your original statement.You wrote that Elder Jensen's statements contradicted the "gossip and rumor mongering" (regarding people leaving the church). They did not contradict the rumors, they confirmed them. If you still don't understand, then you're just being obtuse here. 1
ALarson Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 (edited) Ah yes. And you're not pitting the two against each other. Nope. Nosiree. Agreed. I think they were both stating what they believe to be true and I also believe they could both be accurate. Edited April 9, 2015 by ALarson
Teancum Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 If I were the Lord, I would command the General Authorities to not reveal the statistical evidence that would back up the assertion that the Church is stronger than ever. It will be a very bad thing if the Church leaders start down the road of trying to placate the critics, skeptics and sign-seekers with evidence, because no amount of evidence will ever be enough for those who don't want to believe and who get carnal pleasure out of harassing the prophets and the faithful. The doubters will continue to question everything and demand more and more information, but because their hearts are hardened no amount of information will ever be enough. Seeing the rotting corpse of Lazarus rise from the dead with their own eyes wasn't enough for the sign seekers of the Lord's day and similar displays of evidence will not be enough for the willful doubters of the last days. When faith is absent, sin lies in wait at the door. For those who will not believe until the acceptable day of the Lord is over, they will eventually have all the evidence they could want, but it will be revealed unto their condemnation. Were you really an atheist? If so you certainly have done a 180 degree switch which just is amazing....
Scott Lloyd Posted April 9, 2015 Author Posted April 9, 2015 If I were the Lord, I would command the General Authorities to not reveal the statistical evidence that would back up the assertion that the Church is stronger than ever. It will be a very bad thing if the Church leaders start down the road of trying to placate the critics, skeptics and sign-seekers with evidence, because no amount of evidence will ever be enough for those who don't want to believe and who get carnal pleasure out of harassing the prophets and the faithful. The doubters will continue to question everything and demand more and more information, but because their hearts are hardened no amount of information will ever be enough. Seeing the rotting corpse of Lazarus rise from the dead with their own eyes wasn't enough for the sign seekers of the Lord's day and similar displays of evidence will not be enough for the willful doubters of the last days. When faith is absent, sin lies in wait at the door. For those who will not believe until the acceptable day of the Lord is over, they will eventually have all the evidence they could want, but it will be revealed unto their condemnation. Good thing you are not God. So I will ask you... why is faith the penultimate principle of all self proclaimed revealed religions? Thank you for quoting teddyaware's insightful post. I had missed it.
Scott Lloyd Posted April 9, 2015 Author Posted April 9, 2015 You wrote that Elder Jensen's statements contradicted the "gossip and rumor mongering" (regarding people leaving the church). They did not contradict the rumors, they confirmed them. If you still don't understand, then you're just being obtuse here.No. I regard myself as reasonably lucid. It's just that you've made a statement that strikes me as absurd on it's face. So I figure there must be something beneath the surface that I'm missing, and I asked you to clarify. But all you keep doing is repeating it using almost identical wording. That's not helping me.
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