To Judge Vs. To Condemn

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I have always had a problem with the way people interpret the phrase "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Surely this scripture does not mean we are not supposed to make judgments. In fact, in other places in the scriptures we are required to chose or judge. "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve." Nephi had to leave his brothers in 2nd Nephi (a very harsh judgment). In fact, the scriptures are filled with prophets who made judgments about the spiritual state of various people (See Alma 5).

 

What I think the Savior was saying, and the only context in which it makes sense, is that we are not to condemn people (or damn them). Such a power is reserved for Him. Condemning can happen when we tell someone they are going to hell. More commonly, I think it happens when are actions ostracize someone from the Kingdom because we perceive their actions to be wrong (this statement should not be interpreted to mean that I believe excommunication is wrong. I am very much in favor of it when it is necessary).

 

For example, I am required to make judgments about people every day. I have made a judgment about Kate Kelly, John Dehlin, Denver Snuffer and others. It is my judgment that they have been manipulated by the devil and have fallen into their hands. But I do not condemn them. I think to one extent or another, the same thing could be said about all of us. And I also believe the Lord's ability to forgive is staggering. Additionally, the Lord can take into consideration factors that I simply cannot. How would a modern day porn star's life be different if she had my parents as a child? How would mine be different if I had hers?

 

And so I am unapologetic in saying I have passed judgments on people. It is my judgment that John Dehlin is a wolf in sheep's clothing and he has been dishonest for a lot of years about his intentions. I have made judgments about others (including many on this board). But it is not my place to condemn them by word, thought or deed.

As I recall the "don't judge" means casting a final judgment on some one. "he is going to hell". Or "He is not saved". That is none of our business. But I have no problem casting a judgment on what I see or see other people doing. "Those clothes are not modest" or "John Dehlin is indeed a wolf in sheep's clothing".

 

We have an obligation to point such out. I think we should use tact and common sense in some instances.

[Gray]

No one can be a literalist all the time

[JLHPROF]

No one can be a literalist all the time

 

But I try really, really hard! 

[Gray]

But I try really, really hard! 

 

Full marks for that!

[BCSpace]

Yes but that is after JESUS comes. Not now.

 

Incorrect.  That is THE Judgement and notice in those and the following verses that we are to practice judging now to prepare for it.

[Gray]

3 Nephi 14:1

 

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Judge not, that ye be not judged.

[ERayR]

3 Nephi 14:1

 

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Judge not, that ye be not judged.

 

Verse 2: 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

 

Yes.  That does not say not to judge.  When you read in context it says that the kind of judgement you met out will be the kind of judgement you receive.

[JLHPROF]

Verse 2: 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

 

Yes.  That does not say not to judge.  When you read in context it says that the kind of judgement you met out will be the kind of judgement you receive.

 

God gave us judgement.  It is the very essence of our agency - the ability to know the difference between Good and Evil.

If we do not exercise that judgement how can we know the difference between good and evil, and we will lose our agency.

 

As for judging others, we are required to forgive all men, but will eventually play a role in their judgement, just as other men will play a role in ours.  We have this time to learn the principles of justice and mercy before we will be asked to judge others.  Some men, like Bishops, have even more judgement to perform.

 

"Judge not" is completely misapplied by so many.  Judging righteously is something we are supposed to be learning to do, through practice, example, and study.

[Gray]

Verse 2: 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

 

Yes.  That does not say not to judge.  When you read in context it says that the kind of judgement you met out will be the kind of judgement you receive.

 

Also it says, in context, judge not. 

 

Sorry, just trying on my literalist hat. 

Edited March 31, 2015 by Gray

[Ahab]

Also it says, in context, judge not.

Sorry, just trying on my literalist hat.

Better translations in English:

Judge not in a way that you would not want to be judged.

OR

Don't judge others in a way that you would not want to be judged.

OR

Don't judge others as you would not want to be judged.

SO

If you would not want to be judged unrighteously then don't judge others unrighteously either.

[pogi]

Better translations in English:

Judge not in a way that you would not want to be judged.

OR

Don't judge others in a way that you would not want to be judged.

OR

Don't judge others as you would not want to be judged.

SO

If you would not want to be judged unrighteously then don't judge others unrighteously either.

 

Ok, either way you look at it, it is still telling me the same thing:

Don't judge the overall person, judge the individual behavior - that is how I want to be judged by others, so that is how I will judge.  I think everybody would find that a much more fair, judicious and unbiased approach.  

Edited March 31, 2015 by pogi

[Ahab]

Ok, either way you look at it, it is still telling me the same thing:

Don't judge the overall person, judge the individual behavior - that is how I want to be judged by others, so that is how I will judge. I think everybody would find that a much more fair, judicious and unbiased approach.

Honestly, I can't imagine any other way to judge a person than by behavior, whether it's a behavior that is lacking in a person or a behavior that is present, or was present at some time in the past. I even consider appearances to be a form of behavior, whether present or lacking.

So what else do you think there is to judge/ evaluate/ rate/ classify/ describe?

[Gray]

Better translations in English:

Judge not in a way that you would not want to be judged.

OR

Don't judge others in a way that you would not want to be judged.

OR

Don't judge others as you would not want to be judged.

SO

If you would not want to be judged unrighteously then don't judge others unrighteously either.

 

You looked at the original reformed Egyptian and came up with a better translation?

[pogi]

Honestly, I can't imagine any other way to judge a person than by behavior

 

Why would you even attempt to lump-judge all of the complex, intricate, and mostly imperceivable variables that make up the whole person instead of just acknowledging that they did bad instead of saying that they are bad.  It is the difference between saying that someone made a mistake and saying that someone is a mistake.  We are not justified or remotely competent in making such judgments of being.  That kind of judgement is reserved for the Lord who looks on the heart while we can only perceive of the superficial appearances.

 

Example, some may be tempted to judge my whole person because I have struggled with porn addiction in my life.  That would be an unrighteous judgement.  I would prefer that they judge my behaviors individually instead of my person as a whole based on their limited perception of one or two behaviors (not knowing the history behind them).  I acknowledge that my behavior is bad, but I am not a bad person.  There is no such thing - we are in probation and no judgement of man can change that or have any lasting effect - such judgements do not depict reality in all of its complexity, they are inconsequential and have no effect except to skew and taint our perception and judgement of the person as a whole. It is unrighteous.   

Edited March 31, 2015 by pogi

[Ahab]

You looked at the original reformed Egyptian and came up with a better translation?

No, I went to the primary source.

The Holy Spirit.

[Ahab]

Why would you even attempt to lump-judge all of the complex, intricate, and mostly imperceivable variables that make up the whole person instead of just acknowledging that they did bad instead of saying that they are bad. It is the difference between saying that someone made a mistake and saying that someone is a mistake. We are not justified or remotely competent in making such judgments of being. That kind of judgement is reserved for the Lord who looks on the heart while we can only perceive of the superficial appearances.

Example, some may be tempted to judge my whole person because I have struggled with porn addiction in my life. That would be an unrighteous judgement. I would prefer that they judge my behaviors individually instead of my person as a whole based on their limited perception of one or two behaviors (not knowing the history behind them). I acknowledge that my behavior is bad, but I am not a bad person. There is no such thing - we are in probation and no judgement of man can change that or have any lasting effect - such judgements do not depict reality in all of its complexity, they are inconsequential and have no effect except to skew and taint our perception and judgement of the person as a whole. It is unrighteous.

Maybe what I meant would be more clear to you if I rephrased what I said in other words.

Honestly, the concept of judging a whole person makes no sense to be unless that judgment is a judgment of their behavior. It's the only way I can conceive of judging the whole person.

Or in other words, judging what we are is to judge what we do, including how we respond to others and what we think even if we don't say a word. Actions. Behavior. Presentation.

How else do you imagine being able to judge a whole person?

[pogi]

How else do you imagine being able to judge a whole person?

 

I simply refrain from judging the "whole person" as it does more harm than good.  What purpose does it serve?

 

I am perfectly capable of deciding who I want to associate with by judging the individual behaviors of a person while refraining from judging the person as a whole.  Such holistic judgements lead to prejudice and jaundiced perceptions and unrighteous judgement.  We simply cannot see the whole picture to make holistic judgements.  

 

Such holistic judgements can be harmful in that they tend to cause us to over-look or down-play the negative traits in "good people", as well as to over-look or down-play the positive traits in "bad people".   

Edited March 31, 2015 by pogi

[Gray]

No, I went to the primary source.

The Holy Spirit.

 

Understand when I say this, my tongue is in my cheek. The Holy Spirit gave you a better translation than it gave to Joseph Smith?