bluebell Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 I have seen it as well and it is often horrifying. Not giving them $5 will not help in any way make the children's life better. That's just not true, but i'm not going to argue with you about it. We all do the best we can (or hopefully that's what we are trying to do) when it comes to helping people who are in desperate need of help. If we feel the spirit telling us to give someone $5 then we should do it. When we give for the right reasons then i think good can always be done.
The Nehor Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 That's just not true, but i'm not going to argue with you about it. We all do the best we can (or hopefully that's what we are trying to do) when it comes to helping people who are in desperate need of help. If we feel the spirit telling us to give someone $5 then we should do it. When we give for the right reasons then i think good can always be done.I disagree that it exacerbates the problem. In fact it might (but is still unlikely) prevent the person from committing a crime out of desperation.
bluebell Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 I disagree that it exacerbates the problem. In fact it might (but is still unlikely) prevent the person from committing a crime out of desperation. Like i said Nehor, you should do whatever you feel the Spirit telling you to do. None of us can go wrong when we do that. We don't have to agree on how best to help. 1
Tacenda Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 Panhandlers ask for money and usually give a reason/excuse. They often ask for money for food etc. I will then buy them food. The looks I get when I offer to buy them a meal can usually tell me where the money was actually going. That said, there are a couple of youtube posts that show a homeless man receiving $ 100 and then being followed to see where it went. Social experiment aside , it was very heartening.When exiting a freeway once my husband handed a Smith's gift card he'd received from work to a man with a sign. He said that way it won't go to drugs, one of the kids piped up, "there's beer at Smith's"! But hopefully it went to food. And your analogy/analogies tie in wonderfully with a RS lesson once, where the teacher mentions that we give and then let the recipient decide their consequences, not in those words.
Tacenda Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) I must say those people that hold signs up near the SL temple seem real iffy. I saw one load up their stuff in a perfectly fine truck and drive off. And those that are on almost every corner, they stand for hours. Seems they could find a job doing that. But there I go, judging. But think it's a good way to gage, by just offering a meal or something to see the reaction, maybe even a lunch sack from home, to see if they're really needy. Boy, I'm a cynic today. Edited March 3, 2015 by Tacenda
KevinG Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 Yeah, and giving someone a free meal or $5 is not going to solve or exacerbate the problem. 100 people in the course of a day giving a person $5 can fund a pretty good drug habit.
The Nehor Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 100 people in the course of a day giving a person $5 can fund a pretty good drug habit.So can a successful career as a mugger or thief.
KevinG Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 So can a successful career as a mugger or thief. I don't give muggers money either. I do donate time, talents, energy and cash to local charities who can help the homeless, and often mentally ill, with housing, food, counseling, job training and a world of other services that will HELP them not ENABLE them. I have also purchased meals and sat with some of these folks while they ate. BUT the Agent Bishops and local homeless services agencies are much more likely to be able to provide long term assistance without the risk of enabling self-destructive behaviors. 3
KevinG Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 I must say those people that hold signs up near the SL temple seem real iffy. I saw one load up their stuff in a perfectly fine truck and drive off.And those that are on almost every corner, they stand for hours. Seems they could find a job doing that. But there I go, judging.But think it's a good way to gage, by just offering a meal or something to see the reaction, maybe even a lunch sack from home, to see if they're really needy.Boy, I'm a cynic today. I've seen studies where individuals can bring in as much as $60,000 annually (tax free) if they stake out a good spot. In Chicago in the 80's I worked downtown, and one guy who sat in a wheelchair outside Union Station would wait until after rush hour, call a limo, get up and throw his chair in the trunk, and ride home in style. He used to swear at people who gave change, he only wanted big bills. Not all panhandlers were con artists. Some were genuinely grateful for a shared meal or spare change. But there are some real artists out there. Salt Lake City has lots of resources for the homeless, including Agent Bishops. No need to feed the professionals. http://endpanhandling.com/solutions.php
pogi Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 Salt Lake City has lots of resources for the homeless There is this also:http://frac.org/federal-foodnutrition-programs/snapfood-stamps/homeless-persons-rights-under-the-snapsnapfood-stamp-program/
The Nehor Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 I don't give muggers money either. I do donate time, talents, energy and cash to local charities who can help the homeless, and often mentally ill, with housing, food, counseling, job training and a world of other services that will HELP them not ENABLE them. I have also purchased meals and sat with some of these folks while they ate. BUT the Agent Bishops and local homeless services agencies are much more likely to be able to provide long term assistance without the risk of enabling self-destructive behaviors.I give muggers money if they are exercising their 2nd amendment right to bear arms.That is a beautiful ideal but the sad truth is most of the poor and needy are manipulative jerks who do not want help to escape their condition unless that help is winning the lottery. The humble grateful poor we see in church videos and that are preached about in sermons do exist but they are rare. Most social workers I know grow to hate the people they are trying to help because they have to deal with them all the time.I think the LDS approach is good but globally implementing it would not end poverty or solve much of the problem. We turn people away. We have to. Should they starve because they do not fit into our conception of how the poor should act?
pogi Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) Should they starve because they do not fit into our conception of how the poor should act? See my link. There is no reason for a panhandler to starve, even if they never get handouts. They don't need our handouts to get food, they get my handouts for food through the government. If they don't want to take my money for food through the established systems, why would I give them food or money? Edited March 3, 2015 by pogi
The Nehor Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 See my link. There is no reason for a panhandler to starve, even if they never get handouts. They don't need our handouts to get food, they get my handouts for food through the government.The government process to get benefits is humiliating and many avoid it for that reason.Ironically the economic benefits outweigh the cost.
pogi Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 The government process to get benefits is humiliating and many avoid it for that reason.Ironically the economic benefits outweigh the cost. Panhandling is less humiliating? What do you mean that the economic benefits outweigh the cost?
The Nehor Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 Panhandling is less humiliating? What do you mean that the economic benefits outweigh the cost?Unequivocally yes. Government benefits roast you over the coals and demand lots of stuff to prove you need this help. If both took the same amount of time and yielded same reward I would pick panhandling.The benefits to the economy. The economy is stimulated by people spending money. The poorer you are the more likely your money will be spent quickly. I can afford to sit back and bank 40% of my salary. Poor people spend which is good for the economy. The wealthy are terrible for the economy.
pogi Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) Unequivocally yes. Government benefits roast you over the coals and demand lots of stuff to prove you need this help. How do they "roast you over the coals"? 9 Myths and Facts about SNAP Benefits and the Homeless 1 Myth:You must have housing and a mailing address to get SNAP. Fact: You can get SNAP benefits even if you live on the streets and don’t have a mailing address. If you live in a shelter, bring a letter from a shelter employee that says you live there when you apply. 2 Myth: People who live in shelters can’t get SNAP because they already get free meals. Fact: You can get SNAP benefits even if you live in a shelter with meals. You can’t be turned down only because you live in a homeless shelter with meals. 3 Myth:You must have a place to cook and store food to get SNAP. Fact: You can’t be turned down for SNAP benefits because you don’t have a kitchen or a place to cook. 4 Myth:You need a photo ID to get SNAP. Fact: You need proof of identity. A photo ID is one way to prove identity. You can’t be turned down for SNAP benefits because you don’t have photo ID. You can use another ID like a work or school badge, a health benefits card, an ID from another social service, a pay stub, a birth certificate, or a voter registration card. The SNAP/Food Stamps worker can also check your identity by calling shelter workers or employers. 5 Myth:You can buy food only at grocery stores. Fact: Homeless people can use SNAP benefits at other places. You can use SNAP benefits to pay for meals at soup kitchens and homeless shelters that are authorized to accept SNAP benefits. 6 Myth:It is difficult for homeless people to apply and there is no help available. Fact: DTA must set up ways to serve homeless people. They can find an authorized representative or mail your benefits to the shelter where you stay. The SNAP office can’t make you fill out forms every month. 7 Myth:Homeless youth have to provide their parent’s income when they apply for SNAP. Fact: Homeless young people can apply for SNAP benefits on their own. Their parent’s income does not count. If you live in a shelter, bring a letter from a shelter employee that says you live there when you apply. 8 Myth: You must follow the work requirements to apply for SNAP. Fact: Homeless people with no dependents do not need to have a job or look for a job to apply for SNAP benefits. Once they get SNAP benefits, they do not have to work for three months. After that, they must register for work, take employment training, attend job fairs, or accept a reasonable job offer to keep SNAP benefits. This rule doesn’t apply to people with children 6 years old or younger; people with disabilities; or people who meet certain other exemptions. Your SNAP worker will tell you which work requirements apply to you. 9 Myth:SNAP have to be paid back. Fact: People who get the right amount of SNAP benefits do not have to pay them back. Make sure the information you give when you apply is correct. If you get SNAP benefits based on wrong information, then you will have to pay them back. http://www.masslegalhelp.org/income-benefits/fshomelessness If both took the same amount of time and yielded same reward I would pick panhandling. That's exactly why we shouldn't give money to panhandlers. They don't need our money for food or shelter. They need to go through the program which actually helps them get a job. Money is taken out of my pay check for that reason. If they don't want it, I am not going to give them any more. Edited March 3, 2015 by pogi 1
The Nehor Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 Government welfare helps people to get jobs? Wait...what....Lol, I thought you were serious for a minute there. 1
KevinG Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 I give muggers money if they are exercising their 2nd amendment right to bear arms. If they can afford a gun, they don't need my change.
pogi Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 Government welfare helps people to get jobs? Wait...what....Lol, I thought you were serious for a minute there. "Once they get SNAP benefits, they do not have to work for three months. After that, they must register for work, take employment training, attend job fairs, or accept a reasonable job offer to keep SNAP benefits. This rule doesn’t apply to people with children 6 years old or younger; people with disabilities; or people who meet certain other exemptions. Your SNAP worker will tell you which work requirements apply to you." There is no such motivation for panhandlers.
The Nehor Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 "Once they get SNAP benefits, they do not have to work for three months. After that, they must register for work, take employment training, attend job fairs, or accept a reasonable job offer to keep SNAP benefits. This rule doesn’t apply to people with children 6 years old or younger; people with disabilities; or people who meet certain other exemptions. Your SNAP worker will tell you which work requirements apply to you." There is no such motivation for panhandlers.So the panhandlers have a good gig? Would you take up a career as a panhandler?
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 Would the church ever call a poor man to be a Bishop who would then be on the end of receiving the fast offerings? Because from my ward's history, only the rich successful guy has been called to Bishop and the Stake Presidency.
pogi Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 So the panhandlers have a good gig? Would you take up a career as a panhandler? I personally would rather flip burgers for McDonalds or greet people at Walmart. If I was going to hold up a sign on the street for money, I would do so as a productive member of society working for Little Caesars. No, panhandlers don't have it good, but they do make more money (untaxed) than the Hot and Ready dude that actually entertains me with his dance moves and sign flipping skills. 1
The Nehor Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 I personally would rather flip burgers for McDonalds or greet people at Walmart. If I was going to hold up a sign on the street for money, I would do so as a productive member of society working for Little Caesars. No, panhandlers don't have it good, but they do make more money (untaxed) than the Hot and Ready dude that actually entertains me with his dance moves and sign flipping skills.I find panhandlers with guitars or funny signs more entertaining and less depressing then people who wear mascot costumes in front of businesses. Given the choice between mascot and gay crack whore I am not sure which I would pick. 1
pogi Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 Would the church ever call a poor man to be a Bishop who would then be on the end of receiving the fast offerings? Because from my ward's history, only the rich successful guy has been called to Bishop and the Stake Presidency. My bishop would not be considered "rich or successful" by any means. His circumstances are about as humble as they can get, and would probably be considered "poor" by most members standards in Utah. He is also recently reactivated in the last 4 years. He was inactive for most of his life. He has a speech impediment and has a horrible memory for names, but he clearly wears the mantle of bishop and is a very inspiring man doing a marvelous job. 4
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