Explaining Book Of Mormon Anachronisms

[Uncle Dale]

 

Well, Uncle Dale, the "Lectures on Faith" were authored primarily by Sidney Rigdon and are not canonical.

 

 

 

I realize that -- but they were certainly the "doctrine" of the Church, for my

ancestors -- for both my RLDS and LDS ancestral relatives. After they were

removed from the Lamoni edition, the Saints there called that volume the

"Book of Covenants," (the "doctrine" portion of D&C having been removed).

 

I can assure you that Lecture 2 was still being taught in Graceland religion

classes as late as 1979. Whether it was taught as "history" in accredited

college courses, I don't know. I only attended religious classes there.

 

Thus, I was told that the following was approved as our official doctrine

in 1835, by unanimous votes of all the quorums assembled at Kirtland,

after prayer, fasting, and seeking guidance from Heavenly Father:

 

>First, Adam was 130 years old when Seth was born. Gen. 5:3. And the days of Adam,

>after he had begotten Seth, were 800 years, making him 930 years old when he died.

>Gen. 5:4,5. Seth was 105 when Enos was born. 5:6. Enos was 90 when Cainan was

>born. 5:9. Cainan was 70 when Mahalaleel was born. 5:12. Mahalaleel was 65 when

>Jared was born. 5:15. Jared was 162 when Enoch was born. 5:18. Enoch was 65 when

>Methuselah was born. 5:21. Methuselah was 187 when Lamech was born. 5:25.

>Lamech was 182 when Noah was born. 5:28.

 

Now it is most certainly possible that God did NOT approve the inclusion of any

such genealogy in the D&C, and that it was eventually removed by revelation, or

by inspired enlightenment among Church leaders who came to realize that the

instruction was wrong or unreliable. I'll allow for that, if any body can offer such

a reasonable explanation of things.

 

At any rate, this was the starting point, for determining when Noah was born

(in America) and when the great flood that destroyed the Adamites in America

occurred. Those people having been destroyed, the Jaredites (I was told)

retained their ancient language, passed through that quarter where there

never had man been, and eventually arrived in that quarter where Adam had

once dwelt.

 

That was the "true history" (or so I was taught) which eventually led to the great

Golden Age of Peace, in America when the Gospel prevailed to such an extent

that nowhere else on earth did the 6th Dispensation furnish such a clear model

and prototype for what our mission was to be -- to bring forth and establish

the cause of Zion, prior to the commencement of the Millennium. In short,

to build up the pre-millennial Kingdom of God on earth, just as the Nephites

had begun to do (before their disasterous backsliding and the withdrawal

of the Priesthood from this planet).

 

I am not saying that what I was taught was true. What I am saying, is that it

furnished the basis for my understanding of Latter Day Saintism for decades

of my life. It obviously still colors my perspective on what latter day teaching is.

 

If such topics are not discussed in this forum, perhaps I can still find folks

who are interested, elsewhere. Just point me in the right direction.

 

UD

Edited January 9, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[omni]

That may well be the case.

I really do not know. Is his research sustained or testified

to by any modern General Authority?

Even during my brief stay upon this planet, it has been

my experience that opinions expressed by the rank and

file in the Church come and go -- often within a single

lifetime. But the official pronouncements of prophets and

apostles apepar to "stick around" a lot longer.

If there is nothing really germane in the messages of the

First Presidency, apostolic conference talks, etc., then I'll

look elsewhere for authoratative answers. Didn't some

member of one of the higher quorums of Seventies endorse

Rod L. Meldrum's research? At least I think I recall somebody

saying that Glenn Beck offered some such thoughts in a

quasi-fireside talk last year.

Correct me if I'm wrong. And if anybody has some really useful

advice on a chronology for Jaredites, Enoch's city, etc., I'd

love to have it shared with me. I'm still stuck back in the old

Lectures on Faith, when it comes to this sort of thing.

UD

Let's just say he has found no evidence to support the BoM.

[Uncle Dale]

Let's just say he has found no evidence to support the BoM.

 

 

Which leads me back to my earlier query, (which evidently

caused some offense here, and I apologize for bad wording):

 

Is it ONLY the LDS scholars who profess historical portions

of the book as being true? -- or, are there at least a handful of

other historians who have come to similar conclusions (and,

for example, have determined that the Olmec descended from

an Old World people who came to the Americas shortly after 

the destruction of the Tower of Babel?) --

 

I mean, there must be at least SOME overlap between what

others teach as preColumbian history, and what the Mormons

teach as America's ancient past. Correct?

 

UD

[Calm]

 Didn't some

member of one of the higher quorums of Seventies endorse

Rod L. Meldrum's research?

 

UD

No.  Someone who was a Seventy two decades ago got involved with him.  OTOH, Meldrum is not allowed to give his presentations at church buildings.

[canard78]

Which leads me back to my earlier query, (which evidently

caused some offense here, and I apologize for bad wording):

Is it ONLY the LDS scholars who profess historical portions

of the book as being true? -- or, are there at least a handful of

other historians who have come to similar conclusions (and,

for example, have determined that the Olmec descended from

an Old World people who came to the Americas shortly after

the destruction of the Tower of Babel?) --

I mean, there must be at least SOME overlap between what

others teach as preColumbian history, and what the Mormons

teach as America's ancient past. Correct?

UD

I'm finding your contribution interesting but were you aware that you aware you don't need to press enter at the end of the text box you're typing in?

You only need to press enter/return to create a new paragraph. The lines will wrap by their own accord.

[Uncle Dale]

I'm finding your contribution interesting but were you aware that you aware you don't need to press enter at the end of the text box you're typing in?

You only need to press enter/return to create a new paragraph. The lines will wrap by their own accord.

 

Unfortunately my neuropathy has progressed to the

point that my field of vision is extremely narrowed and

my ability to turn my head back and forth is somewhat

impaired. (Tunnel vision coupled with muscular atrophy)

 

If I take the time and trouble, I can compose computer

texts that span more than a few dozen characters --

but it is difficult and tedious.

 

When viewing other texts on my screen I generally

shrink the browser window down to a fraction of the

full screen. That helps a little in the reading, but not

so much in the keyboarding composition.

 

Sorry about that...

UD

[Calm]

Makes it easier for me to read so I don't mind, I think canard was just trying to save you a bit of work.

[Uncle Dale]

Makes it easier for me to read so I don't mind, I think canard was just trying to save you a bit of work.

 

I appreciate the concern -- also the update on the Meldrum situation.

 

The dementia is the most frustrating part. The word "demented" used

to mean "stupid" or "idiotic" to me -- but after undergoing EEGs, and

seeing different parts of the affected brain light up in different ways,

undergoing stimulation, I now have a greater appreciation for the

malady. When asked to count backwards, by alternating decreases

of seven and thirteen, my brain appeared to function normally.

 

When asked to imagine a certain person's characteristics, or to

express feelings at the sound of that name, the colors on the

monitoring screen went haywire, with all sorts of abnormalities.

 

I would like to believe that my mentally concentrating upon the

name calmoriah would produce a happpy EEG readout, however.

 

But enough of such personal trivia. I just want to know what lesson

4th Nephi provides for Latter Day Saints kingdom-building and

understanding of our shared history.

 

UD

[Robert F. Smith]

..................................................................

 

Assuming the Book of Mormon didn't exist, what archaeological or anthropological evidence would be used to point to or intimate an Israelite habitation in the New World?

You would want to look for artefacts which originate with such a group, hopefully found in situ or otherwise given a secure provenance.  Say, for example, the Bat Creek or Paraiba stones -- if such could be established with certainty (as Cyrus Gordon attempted to do, without success).  One would also want to examine the linguistics of certain groups to determine whether they had originated with or been heavily influenced by a Semitic language -- see my “*Sawi-Zaa,” 2011 version 2, online at http://www.scribd.com/doc/56696298/SAWI-ZAA .  I provide a bibliography there of scholars who have made just such examinations.

 

Naturally, DNA should be of great interest.  Especially ancient DNA (aDNA) from skeletal remains.  However, the New World is a huge place to examine, in which even finding Viking DNA has proved difficult (we know archeologically that they were here).  If a small group of Israelites had landed somewhere in the New World, their DNA would likely have been lost to the larger gene pool over time, as is the case with the Vikings, so that DNA studies of modern people would not be helpful.  Not having a specific area to test for aDNA would also slow success.  Moreover, with the U.S. law called NAGPRA, it is nearly impossible to test any bones recovered, since they must immediately be turned over to a local Amerind tribe for secret burial.

 

One thing is clear:  Migrants came not simply via Beringia, but also across the Pacific Ocean:

 

The results of the filogenetic analysis reported here support the idea that the autochthonous pueblos based in Meso-America and South America had common ancestors, with as many coming with the migratory wave from the north as those that took the transpacific route.” Allelic distribution amongst the Mazatecs showed a genotypic pattern that was very similar to that found amongst Asian peoples, that is to say, 23% of the population had an LL genotype. In addition there was detected an heterozygote transition G – A that replaced an alanine with a treonine…in eight individuals … which represents a very high incidence.   Felipe Vilchis, “HLA Genes and the Origins of the Amerindians,” Revista de investigación clínica; organo del Hospital de Enfermedades de la Nutrición, 53/3 (2001):274-275,

 

See also:

Raff, J. A., et al., “Ancient DNA perspectives on american colonization and population history,” American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 146/4 (Dec 2011):503-514. 

 

Carvajal-Carmona, Luis, et al., “Strong Amerind/White Sex Bias and a Possible Sephardic Contribution among the Founders of a Population in Northwest Colombia,” American Journal of Human Genetics, 67 (2000):1287-1295.

 

“Continents Influenced Ancient Human Migration, Spread of Technology,” ScienceDaily, Sept 20, 2011, online at http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110919113846.htm .  “The populations in North and South America are, for the most part, more different from each other than the populations in Eurasia. The reason has to do with the differing climates that migrating peoples in the Americas found when they moved north to south.”  Ramachandran said "We find greater genetic differences (in the Americas' populations) because of the difficulty in migration and the increased challenge of reuniting with neighboring populations."  See Sohini Ramachandran, Noah A. Rosenberg. “A test of the influence of continental axes of orientation on patterns of human gene flow,” American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 2011; DOI: 10.1002/ajpa.21533

 

Doran Glenn H., et al., “Anatomical, Cellular and Molecular Analysis of 8,000-year-old Human Brain Tissue from the Windover Archaeological Site,” Nature, 323/6091 (1986):803-806.  Bog near Titusville, Florida, preserved tremendous cache of tools, fabric, and human remains – which do not have any of the four common mtDNA haplogroups (ABCD), but do have haplogroup X.  See Hauswirth in Experientia, below.

 

Eshelman, Jason A., Ripan S. Malhi, and David G. Smith, “Mitochondrial DNA Studies of Native Americans: Conceptions and Misconceptions of the Population Prehistory of the Americas,” Evolutionary Anthropology, 12 (2003), 7-18.  Concerning the Asian origin of the four or five major Amerind haplogroups (matrilineages) indicated by the mtDNA evidence, “haplogroup frequencies alone cannot distinguish between admixture [from post-Columbian sources] and common ancestry” ( .  Not enough research on nDNA has yet been done to distinguish New World populations from one another nor to clarify the complex and controversial history of their relationship to the Old World (15-16), i.e., “additional haplogroups may be discovered by studies of ancient DNA in the Americas.  Such a lineage may have either become extinct or be a yet-undiscovered lineage persisting at low levels in modern populations” (13).  Indeed, larger sampling has typically brought a whole new set of conclusions ( .

 

Gonzalez-Oliver, Angelica, et al., “Founding Amerindian Mitochondrial DNA Lineages in Ancient Maya from Xcaret, Quintana Roo,” American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 116/3 (2001):230-235.  Skeletal remains from the Late Classic/Post Classic site were examined.  Ancient and modern mtDNA from some individuals exhibit an absence of the haplotype markers of “the four founding lineages” (230).

 

Hauswirth, W. W., et al., “Inter- and Intrapopulation Studies of Ancient Humans,” Experientia, 50/6 (1994), 585ff.,  mtDNA analysis of the Windover, Florida, remains suggests some relationship to other Amerinds, as well as “genetically distinct origins” (585).

 

Malhi, Ripan S., et al., "Mitochondrial Haplogroup M Discovered in Prehistoric North Americans." Journal of Archaeological Science, 34 (2007):642-648. [Among the Chinese, haplogroup M accounts for approximately 50% of all people. -http://dnaconsultants.com/_blog/DNA_Consultants_Blog/tag/Olmec/#sthash.DHcaLlAS.dpuf ]

 

“New Statistical Method Reveals Surprises About Our Ancestry,” ScienceDaily.com, May 22, 2008, online at http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/05/080522210025.htm .  New techniques which consider over 500,000 genetic markers, offer much more sophisticated analysis of human migrations, e.g., not only is there a strong Mongolian contribution to the genes of Pima Amerinds, but there is also strong gene flow from north Europe into Eastern Siberia.  Summary based on G. Hellenthal, A. Auton, and D. Falush, “Inferring Human Colonization History Using a Copying Model,” Public Library of Science Genetics 4/5 (2008):1000078 (10.1371).

 

Raff, J. A., et al., “Ancient DNA perspectives on american colonization and population history,” American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 146/4 (Dec 2011):503-514.  Abstract: Ancient DNA (aDNA) analyses have proven to be important tools in understanding human population dispersals, settlement patterns, interactions between prehistoric populations, and the development of regional population histories. Here, we review the published results of sixty-three human populations from throughout the Americas and compare the levels of diversity and geographic patterns of variation in the ancient samples with contemporary genetic variation in the Americas in order to investigate the evolution of the Native American gene pool over time. Our analysis of mitochondrial haplogroup frequencies and prehistoric population genetic diversity presents a complex evolutionary picture. Although the broad genetic structure of American prehistoric populations appears to have been established relatively early, we nevertheless identify examples of genetic discontinuity over time in select regions. We discuss the implications this finding may have for our interpretation of the genetic evidence for the initial colonization of the Americas and its subsequent population history. Am J Phys Anthropol, 2011.

 

Reidla, Maere, et al., “Origin and Diffusion of mtDNA Haplogroup X,” American Journal of Human Genetics, 73 (2003), 1178ff  Haplogroup X introduced to the Americas from Near East at a very early date.

 

Shook, Beth Alison Schultz, and David Glenn Smith, “Using Ancient mtDNA to Reconstruct the Population History of Northeastern North America,” American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 137/1 (Sept 2008):14-29.

 

 

.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[Gervin]

 

Felipe Vilchis, 

 

Raff, J. A., et al.

 

Carvajal-Carmona, Luis, et al.

 

Doran Glenn H., et al.

 

Eshelman, Jason A., Ripan S. Malhi, and David G. Smith

 

Gonzalez-Oliver, Angelica, et al.

 

Hauswirth, W. W., et al.

 

Malhi, Ripan S., et al.

 

G. Hellenthal, A. Auton, and D. Falush

 

Raff, J. A., et al.

 

Reidla, Maere, et al.

 

Shook, Beth Alison Schultz, and David Glenn Smith

 

However, I'd be correct in assuming that none of these people actually posit a hypothesis of Israelites in the New World or claim that their work supports such a claim ... correct?

[Tacenda]

I appreciate the concern -- also the update on the Meldrum situation.

The dementia is the most frustrating part. The word "demented" used

to mean "stupid" or "idiotic" to me -- but after undergoing EEGs, and

seeing different parts of the affected brain light up in different ways,

undergoing stimulation, I now have a greater appreciation for the

malady. When asked to count backwards, by alternating decreases

of seven and thirteen, my brain appeared to function normally.

When asked to imagine a certain person's characteristics, or to

express feelings at the sound of that name, the colors on the

monitoring screen went haywire, with all sorts of abnormalities.

I would like to believe that my mentally concentrating upon the

name calmoriah would produce a happpy EEG readout, however.

But enough of such personal trivia. I just want to know what lesson

4th Nephi provides for Latter Day Saints kingdom-building and

understanding of our shared history.

UD

I love your thread in social about puzzles/riddles! And was excited to see you on the board when I realized you were that Uncle Dale! I'm so sorry you're struggling with those health issues.

[Uncle Dale]

I love your thread in social about puzzles/riddles! And was excited to see you on the board when I realized you were that Uncle Dale! I'm so sorry you're struggling with those health issues.

 

One more clue for the last puzzle. Without the efforts

of that particular fellow, there would have been no Nauvoo.

 

The neurological deterioriation has certainly been a lesson

in humility -- and it's a bit frightening to lose long-held memories,

just like a candle being blown out.

 

But, I continue to be fascinated by my latter day heritage and

all that entails. Concentrating upon that, and the related history,

has been a continuing "bright spot" in my senior years. I'm sure

others here could give equally compelling testimonies -- well,

testimonies of a sort. Like the tour guide at the Liberty Jail

Visitors' Center, who told us: "Getting up every morning and

preparing to meet and greet the tourists has become the most

enjoyable part of my life."

 

I think I can understand that feeling...

 

UD

[Mike Reed]

He was superb, no?

Not as superb as those who forged the lead plates of granada spain.

[Calm]

I would like to believe that my mentally concentrating upon the

name calmoriah would produce a happpy EEG readout, however.

UD

That is the best compliment I've gotten in a long time...almost missed it too seeing I was floating off into never never land.... Edited January 11, 2015 by calmoriah

[canard78]

Unfortunately my neuropathy has progressed to the

point that my field of vision is extremely narrowed and

my ability to turn my head back and forth is somewhat

impaired. (Tunnel vision coupled with muscular atrophy)

If I take the time and trouble, I can compose computer

texts that span more than a few dozen characters --

but it is difficult and tedious.

When viewing other texts on my screen I generally

shrink the browser window down to a fraction of the

full screen. That helps a little in the reading, but not

so much in the keyboarding composition.

Sorry about that...

UD

Ahah, I understand. Sorry to hear about your discomforts. Thanks for persisting with us

[Robert F. Smith]

However, I'd be correct in assuming that none of these people actually posit a hypothesis of Israelites in the New World or claim that their work supports such a claim ... correct?

I can't speak for any of those cited.  It is only a sampling.  You might be interested in the case of Reidla, Maere, et al., “Origin and Diffusion of mtDNA Haplogroup X,” American Journal of Human Genetics, 73 (2003):1178ff  Haplogroup X introduced to the Americas from Near East at a very early date.

 

Much of this DNA work is only in its infancy, with a great deal of promise for the future.  The methods used only a decade ago are now already completely out of date.

 

The geneticists who do this kind of work are not really testing any theory of Israelite origins, so your question is premature.  We may be able to determine such questions further down the road, with more data.

[Gervin]

I can't speak for any of those cited.  It is only a sampling.  You might be interested in the case of Reidla, Maere, et al., “Origin and Diffusion of mtDNA Haplogroup X,” American Journal of Human Genetics, 73 (2003):1178ff  Haplogroup X introduced to the Americas from Near East at a very early date.

 

Much of this DNA work is only in its infancy, with a great deal of promise for the future.  The methods used only a decade ago are now already completely out of date.

 

The geneticists who do this kind of work are not really testing any theory of Israelite origins, so your question is premature.  We may be able to determine such questions further down the road, with more data.

 

No, my question is timely.  I wanted to know, without the Book of Mormon, what if any evidence exists for Old World populations in the Americas.  In response you cite alot of authors/researchers.  So, I asked about their positions regarding the original question.  I believe the answer you are looking for is this: no one outside of the LDS Church posits Israelites in Mesoamerica based on any found archaeological, historical, or anthropological data. 

[Robert F. Smith]

No, my question is timely.  I wanted to know, without the Book of Mormon, what if any evidence exists for Old World populations in the Americas.  In response you cite alot of authors/researchers.  So, I asked about their positions regarding the original question.  I believe the answer you are looking for is this: no one outside of the LDS Church posits Israelites in Mesoamerica based on any found archaeological, historical, or anthropological data. 

I correctly understood your question to be covering all the Americas and not limited to Mesoamerica.  You just changed the goal posts.  Thus, the answer you posit is a non-sequitur and does not answer your original question.  However, if you are expressing an opinion, fine and dandy.  The problem is that the assumptions upon which you base it are false, thus leading to illogical conclusions.

 

One would first want to know whether anyone (LDS or non-LDS) is qualified to look for Israelites in any particular area in the Americas, and what would they look for?  I gave a very good answer as to what such qualified people would have to look for, and you are unable to refute it.  Most New World anthropologists know nothing of Old World (especially Near Eastern) archeology or anthropology, and vice versa.  A team with both specialities might be able to address such questions, but no such teams exist.  Non-Mormon specialists have not studied the matter, don't see why they should, so have nothing coherent to say on the question you pose.  Most non-Mormons have the same apriori views that you have, which is unimportant unless that is also true of specialists.  Good science is dependent on unbiased and unprejudiced assumptions,

[Uncle Dale]

...based on any found archaeological, historical, or anthropological data. 

 

 

When I used to ask my old Priesthood superiors this sort of question,

they would respond with oblique queries of their own, such as --

 

"Have you looked under every rock, to find Nephite artifacts?"

 

"What if the ruins of Zarahemla lie buried under a Mexican parking

lot, and we can never show them to you, Dale? Will you lose faith?"

 

"Nephite artifacts are probably indistinguishable from Lamanite

artifacts -- so, can you tell us how to tell them apart?"

 

I once asked a learned Book of Mormon proponent whether or

not the Nephites ate maize -- and he answered that "Indian corn

was so widespread in the Americas that they could hardly have

avoided it. 'Corn' in the Book of Mormon means just that - 'corn'

as Americans use the word..." (and not as Europeans use it).

 

If evidence of the indigenous origins and spread of domesticated

maize can be well documented (by dated instances of fossil pollen

distribution, remains of charred corn cobs, art depictions, etc.), why

are we unable to use similar investigative methods to document the

provenance and diffusion of Old World crops brought to the Americas

by the Lehites?

 

Nobody ever took the trouble to respond to my last question -- as the

very fact of my asking it was a clear indication my dwindling in unbelief.

 

UD

[Gervin]

I correctly understood your question to be covering all the Americas and not limited to Mesoamerica.  You just changed the goal posts.  Thus, the answer you posit is a non-sequitur and does not answer your original question.  However, if you are expressing an opinion, fine and dandy.  The problem is that the assumptions upon which you base it are false, thus leading to illogical conclusions.

 

One would first want to know whether anyone (LDS or non-LDS) is qualified to look for Israelites in any particular area in the Americas, and what would they look for?  I gave a very good answer as to what such qualified people would have to look for, and you are unable to refute it.  Most New World anthropologists know nothing of Old World (especially Near Eastern) archeology or anthropology, and vice versa.  A team with both specialities might be able to address such questions, but no such teams exist.  Non-Mormon specialists have not studied the matter, don't see why they should, so have nothing coherent to say on the question you pose.  Most non-Mormons have the same apriori views that you have, which is unimportant unless that is also true of specialists.  Good science is dependent on unbiased and unprejudiced assumptions,

 

I think my original question was poorly written ("Assuming the Book of Mormon didn't exist, what archaeological or anthropological evidence would be used to point to or intimate an Israelite habitation in the New World?")

 

Q: Assuming that the coming forth of the Book of Mormon is still a few hundred years into the future, is there evidence that compels you, or anyone else you know of, to believe that a Hebrew people and their religious culture thrived in the New World?

 

thx

Edited January 17, 2015 by Gervin

[Calm]

I think my original question was poorly written ("Assuming the Book of Mormon didn't exist, what archaeological or anthropological evidence would be used to point to or intimate an Israelite habitation in the New World?")

 

Q: Assuming that the coming forth of the Book of Mormon is still a few hundred years into the future, is there evidence that compels you, or anyone else you know of, to believe that a Hebrew people and their religious culture thrived in the New World?

 

thx

Now that is an interesting question….

[Rivers]

I think my original question was poorly written ("Assuming the Book of Mormon didn't exist, what archaeological or anthropological evidence would be used to point to or intimate an Israelite habitation in the New World?")

 

Q: Assuming that the coming forth of the Book of Mormon is still a few hundred years into the future, is there evidence that compels you, or anyone else you know of, to believe that a Hebrew people and their religious culture thrived in the New World?

 

thx

John Sorensen points to a lot of evidence in Mormon's Codex showing that Ancient America was likely inhabited by more than just the landbridge groups. I don't remeber if he points to anything specifically hebrew though.

[Brant Gardner]

Assuming the Book of Mormon didn't exist, what archaeological or anthropological evidence would be used to point to or intimate an Israelite habitation in the New World?

I don't know what that is even the question. The question makes some assumptions that I wouldn't place on the textual question. When examining whether or not a text authentically relates to a the time and place it purports to, bringing assumptions of cultural or genetic inheritance to the question sets up expectations that may or may not be true.

 

For example, if a handful of Spanish sailors shipwrecked on the coast of the Yucatan peninsula, how much Spanish culture should we expect to see in otherwise pre-Contact Yucatan? Of course this did happen and the big difference is that there was only one Spaniard who merged with the local population, but he assimilated rather than pushing his culture on the people he lived with.

 

Why do we even ask questions about Hebrew influences in the Americas when our basic anthropological understanding of the way small populations enter a larger, established population tell us that the question is irrelevant? 

 

Anticipating one possible response, the Book of Mormon does indicate that there was a population that adopted a form of Hebrew religion. The problem with using that fact as an archaeological guide is that we are faced with the problem of trying to find physical evidence of ideas. Religious ideas may be encoded in iconography, but Hebrew religion was essentially aniconic, so that generates a problem in the expectation that there would be recognizable physical embodiments of the religious ideas.

[canard78]

I don't know what that is even the question. The question makes some assumptions that I wouldn't place on the textual question. When examining whether or not a text authentically relates to a the time and place it purports to, bringing assumptions of cultural or genetic inheritance to the question sets up expectations that may or may not be true.

For example, if a handful of Spanish sailors shipwrecked on the coast of the Yucatan peninsula, how much Spanish culture should we expect to see in otherwise pre-Contact Yucatan? Of course this did happen and the big difference is that there was only one Spaniard who merged with the local population, but he assimilated rather than pushing his culture on the people he lived with.

Why do we even ask questions about Hebrew influences in the Americas when our basic anthropological understanding of the way small populations enter a larger, established population tell us that the question is irrelevant?

Anticipating one possible response, the Book of Mormon does indicate that there was a population that adopted a form of Hebrew religion. The problem with using that fact as an archaeological guide is that we are faced with the problem of trying to find physical evidence of ideas. Religious ideas may be encoded in iconography, but Hebrew religion was essentially aniconic, so that generates a problem in the expectation that there would be recognizable physical embodiments of the religious ideas.

Why? Because a large body of Book of Mormon evidence is based on the assumption that old world traditions, language and religious practice influenced the behaviour, perspectives and behaviours of the people and places in the text.

I'm aware that you have personally played down Hebraisms etc, but others haven't.

This BYU article suggests an Aramaic origin for the name "Waters of Sebus."

http://linguistics.byu.edu/news/366/

If names, behaviours and traditions in the Book of Mormon can legitimately given an old world origin, would it be reasonable to find Hebrew/old world evidences in the archaeology of mesoamerica?

[Brant Gardner]

If names, behaviours and traditions in the Book of Mormon can legitimately given an old world origin, would it be reasonable to find Hebrew/old world evidences in the archaeology of mesoamerica?

I have agreed that there is decent evidence that there are names that retain Old World roots. Although we continue to see "proofs" related to Hebraisms, I believe most of those are based on hunting for things we expect to find rather than actual demonstrable evidence. 

 

The real question is whether or not it is reasonable to expect that archaeology would provide evidence of any Hebrew connections. We have a very, very slim chance at names, since the Maya could represent names. The problem there will be the lack of available texts from the right time period, and then from the right locations. 

 

When the question is archaeology, then we are dealing with physical remains. I have seen no evidence of Hebrew material culture, but that doesn't mean anything for the Book of Mormon because I can't see a good reason to expect any. 

 

When it comes to some of the other types of literary data, it can be inconclusive. There are chiasms in the Book of Mormon. They are certainly there, but it is less certain what they mean. There are also chiasms in Maya literature (the examples coming from after the Book of Mormon). So we have chiasmus in Book of Mormon literature and Maya literature. What was the connection? Was there a connection? Currently, that is an unanswerable question. 

 

There has been a long tradition in Mormon examinations of the New World context of the Book of Mormon to posit Lehites (and usually specifically Nephites) as the cause of New World high culture. That is an unfortunate and ultimately understandable folly, but it is folly and we will do ourselves a favor when we distance ourselves from that concept.

 

That doesn't mean that there isn't support for a historical Book of Mormon, only that attempting to make any statement about the authenticity of the Book of Mormon based on the absence of menorahs or crucifixion scenes (or the presence of crosses) is simply concentrating on the wrong information. Either bending data to find what we are looking for, or complaining that something is absent that should have been present are both issues related to looking for the wrong things.